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  1. #101
    Community Member legendkilleroll's Avatar
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    Ive always thought blitz was overpowered, even when I have chars who run in LD I don't use it alot of the time

    I get why there are complaints, all these solo vids people post are them blitzing EE's, you want quick completion just blitz the whole quest, sure in a group of good players it may be harder to keep and that's fun for some competing with friends

    I think also is that pugs are so much different to you guys who run with your uber buddies, most time pugs will have atleast 1 bad/undergearrd or whatever player and for them its boring just following a Blitzer as he mows everything down, so I can see that pov from the devs

  2. #102
    Community Member Pescha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by legendkilleroll View Post
    Ive always thought blitz was overpowered, even when I have chars who run in LD I don't use it alot of the time

    I get why there are complaints, all these solo vids people post are them blitzing EE's, you want quick completion just blitz the whole quest, sure in a group of good players it may be harder to keep and that's fun for some competing with friends

    I think also is that pugs are so much different to you guys who run with your uber buddies, most time pugs will have atleast 1 bad/undergearrd or whatever player and for them its boring just following a Blitzer as he mows everything down, so I can see that pov from the devs
    I don't care about others being weak i am not hindering them to grow up and get stronger so they can do the same, thats not a excuse for such rash change.

  3. #103
    Community Member legendkilleroll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pescha View Post
    I don't care about others being weak i am not hindering them to grow up and get stronger so they can do the same, thats not a excuse for such rash change.
    lol, seems you need to get stronger if blitz is too weak when you use it

    Its not about what you care about, turbine has too look at all the different playstyles, not just people who solo and run with uber characters

  4. #104
    Community Member Pescha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by legendkilleroll View Post
    lol, seems you need to get stronger if blitz is too weak when you use it

    Its not about what you care about, turbine has too look at all the different playstyles, not just people who solo and run with uber characters
    nonsense.

  5. #105
    Community Member the_one_dwarfforged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    There are a lot of opinions in the thread, so I am trying to get a handle on everything. I am seeing some anger in the thread, and I want to make sure I understand why.

    ~ We changed Master's Blitz because it discourages grouping. It doesn't play well in a group, it makes players compete with each other to keep up their DPS, and it rewards top players for sticking with solo play. We want group play to be, if not more rewarding, at least not less effective. One of the biggest concerns from the community is that it's hard to find groups. While we certainly don't want to force grouping for players that aren't interested in it, we also want to re-examine designs that actively discourage it.

    ~ I've been watching videos of the live servers with Swashbucklers soloing EE. (I am setting aside my own play experiences for the moment to try to keep the perspective of the players posting here.) The performance looks competitive with the videos presented in this thread. I am not sure that these are over-performing live builds. I realize that direct comparisons are difficult.

    ~ From what I see in the videos posted in this thread, the LD and the DC builds look close in effectiveness. I think the balance there is better, though DC might be slightly ahead. If that's that case we can tweak Blitz's damage up, but they look close to me.

    ~ For the players arguing against the Blitz change (Cetus as an example) I am not sure I understand to issue. Is it a matter of effectiveness?

    ~ The various EDs look closer in effectiveness than they have been. If people feel melee as a whole is underperforming but the EDs are balanced we'd rather boost them across the board then just buff Blitz and risk it's ED becoming head and shoulders better like it is on live.

    Sev~
    blitz doesnt encourage or discourage grouping. people who use it as a tool for soloing will continue to solo, with or without blitz. people who group will continue to do so with or without blitz. people with bad attitudes will continue to have them with or without blitz. if you think blitz is the number 1 reason (or frankly a reason at all) why it can be hard to get groups, then wow maybe this game really is f*****. no in game ability turns dr jekyll into mr hyde. changing the stack building mechanic doesnt affect this at all, because the people who feel useless when a blitzers around feel that way more because their own dps becomes relatively less to the point that they are *almost* excluded from getting ***last hits/kills*** than because a blitzer might "say dont kill stuff etc etc". exactly what does the charging and stack building mechanic have to do with that? the only thing that will actively encourage grouping is to make it impossible to solo, significantly rewarding it by xp, renown, etc.

    while youre watching those swash videos, please consider nerfing their dps seeing as they are a well rounded class already and dont need to be ***competing*** for top tier dps with the traditional dps classes, which tend to lack that well roundedness provided by a traditionally lower dps class. i thought that that was after all the point of such distinctions. while were at it you are going to make paladins too strong as well. i see a trend, do you?

    dc and ld being close in effectiveness is an issue for me for several reasons. are they being accepted as useful because their epic moment and capstone innate can be used almost all the time? if so then of course other destinies will not be as effective. so whats the next step, give every destiny a highly maintainable buff that is nice but not epic, or buff the other destinies with tons of melee power so that they have roughly the same dps effectiveness as a destiny which can basically (and is expected to, and is balanced against) maintain its epic moment all the time? if the only solution to that problem (that isnt also ridiculous like the two i mentioned before) is to make epic moments epic moments, tweaking them across the board to be more infrequent but more powerful then im all for it. id like to remind everyone that blitz is not the only ability or appeal of the dreadnaught destiny, and id appreciate that i not be required to have blitz active (even if there is 0 reason why i shouldnt...) or have to switch destinies because they are balanced against one, single ability from an otherwise excellent but forgotten (somehow) destiny. lastly dreadnaught should absolutely be higher dps than crusader because outside of a moderate increase in cc ability dreadnaught provides only damage increase, while dc provides damage as well as some pretty considerable active and passive healing. unless we are trying to eliminate all differences between existing character options?

    if blitz is going to become just a buff that has no reason to be active less than 100% of the time, can you please just make it a permanent passive buff, and give dreadnaught an epic moment ability? my issue with the proposed stacking mechanic is that blitz will be something you balance entire destinies against in the future (youre doing it now, but this wont be the last time if you leave it like this) and will result in dreadnaught becoming an "underperforming" destiny when that buff (thats all it is) is not active. while were at it id prefer a stack building mechanic based on successful tactical feat usage. currently blitz functions as well in groups as any other ability in the game, despite any complaints you might get. it might be unnecessarily strong, but again thats just a numbers issue.

    i think you guys are taking the term "balance" and for the cause of increasing "viable" player choices, you are actually removing the differences between those choices. this may result in balance, but it may also result in ddo losing its most appealing aspect: making choices in building your character that matter. suppose paladins and bards each do an amount of dps thats within 5% of each other? does it matter which class i pick? is everything just going to be a flavor option? are monkchers, centered kenseis, bladeforged, and shiradis (arguably the most choice limiting aspects of the game) part of this picture of balance you are painting?

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    ~ We changed Master's Blitz because it discourages grouping. It doesn't play well in a group, it makes players compete with each other to keep up their DPS, and it rewards top players for sticking with solo play. We want group play to be, if not more rewarding, at least not less effective. One of the biggest concerns from the community is that it's hard to find groups. While we certainly don't want to force grouping for players that aren't interested in it, we also want to re-examine designs that actively discourage it.

    Sev~
    Another mechanic that discourages grouping is scaling, which currently happens in EE. Suppose I am a player with enough experience to solo EEs. When I group, I will feel less powerful (it will take more hits to kill a mob). Theoretically, if all players pull their weight, the group completition will be easier. But if I already was finishing on my own, I;d probably prefer to remain powerful in relation to content.

    This leads to the key issue: group completitions are almost guaranteed, as other people has said in the thread. A group of well geared capped experience players can finish any quest without expecting any chance of failing. Showing skill moved from finishing quests to finishing them solo and finally nowadays to finishing them the fastest. This is the best indication of how there has been A) power creep, B) massive increases in self sufficiency.

    Nowadays everyone does the same essentially, DPS + Self heals. Some people do it ranged, some other melee and the balance between DPS / self heals is different across builds. But I do not often see players engaging in different roles in a party.

    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    There are a lot of opinions in the thread, so I am trying to get a handle on everything. I am seeing some anger in the thread, and I want to make sure I understand why.

    ~ For the players arguing against the Blitz change (Cetus as an example) I am not sure I understand to issue. Is it a matter of effectiveness?

    Sev~
    You have toned down a lot the damage they can do. The builds are more effective because the combat time adjusted power is better (for a reference, look here https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...e-hard-numbers). But if you derive some pleasure from seeing big numbers, this change has killed that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post

    ~ I've been watching videos of the live servers with Swashbucklers soloing EE. (I am setting aside my own play experiences for the moment to try to keep the perspective of the players posting here.) The performance looks competitive with the videos presented in this thread. I am not sure that these are over-performing live builds. I realize that direct comparisons are difficult.

    ~ From what I see in the videos posted in this thread, the LD and the DC builds look close in effectiveness. I think the balance there is better, though DC might be slightly ahead. If that's that case we can tweak Blitz's damage up, but they look close to me.

    ~ The various EDs look closer in effectiveness than they have been. If people feel melee as a whole is underperforming but the EDs are balanced we'd rather boost them across the board then just buff Blitz and risk it's ED becoming head and shoulders better like it is on live.

    Sev~
    1. Swashbucklers are out of the box ready builds to solo EE. They pack heals, displacement and very good offensive power without needing to farm displacement clickies, get rare items and what not. That is why they are labeled as "easy buttons".

    2. Yes, LD and DC are very close now.

    3. This is a hard one. Needs its own topic and update.

  7. #107
    Community Member Kalevor's Avatar
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    There is nice idea post it in this thread:
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...feedback/page2

    It propose to change "holy sword" to actually buff only swords...

    This should lower the pally rage a little bit...
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    You know, when any EE run you do is essentially a guaranteed completion - most of the fun I have nowadays is competing for kills with other elite skilled players, this is fun for me. The mobs simply don't pose much of a challenge anymore.

    The very essence of the problem (I guess, just judging from what I've read here) is blitz management. People simply have a rather shoddy attitude using blitz and expecting their party members to accommodate it - I'd be ****edoff about this too.

    When I blitz, I just do it - I don't tell anyone anything. I know who I play with, and I know in which situations I'll have a tough time - so i tend to adapt around that to get my blitz charges. If I lose them, that's on me - I'd NEVER ask any party member to accommodate my blitz. It seems that the people who had the entitled attitude are the ones who are responsible for this change.

    Again, I'll deal with this new mechanic - I'm not 100% on either side here. I don't know what the solution is - all I can say is the overt drawbacks to this charging mechanic -

    1. The more damage I do, the less of a chance I have at charging it - since my enemy dies quicker.

    2. Charging it is guaranteed on a boss. Period. The opportunity cost is auto-attack for a minute, and you have your 10 blitz charges. You don't have to chase after mobs, or swap destinies on boss heavy quests - you just....have it. No skill involved at all.
    I completely agree with #1 and hope they address it. It is rewarding lower dps with a more effective blitz which is completely wrong

    I also agree with #2 although it bothers me less because I don't really mind if boss fights go a little quicker. Given recent boss hp inflation it doesn't seem like a huge percentage boost to dps that is over-powered. Although, as you say, they are basically giving it away for boss fights.
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  9. #109
    Community Member Pescha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    I completely agree with #1 and hope they address it. It is rewarding lower dps with a more effective blitz which is completely wrong

    I also agree with #2 although it bothers me less because I don't really mind if boss fights go a little quicker. Given recent boss hp inflation it doesn't seem like a huge percentage boost to dps that is over-powered. Although, as you say, they are basically giving it away for boss fights.
    Actually mobs have more hp now.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pescha View Post
    Actually mobs have more hp now.
    True, but that hardly matters in a good group. Mobs go down quick and/or are easily managed. Red name hp scaling has more of a direct impact on how long it takes to complete that fight. If melees are doing a little more damage fighting a red-named boss I am just not that concerned about it.
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  11. #111
    2015 DDO Players Council B0ltdrag0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalevor View Post
    There is nice idea post it in this thread:
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...feedback/page2

    It propose to change "holy sword" to actually buff only swords...

    This should lower the pally rage a little bit...
    So you want this and want to limit what you consider a sword? Even though the spell never worked on just swords, you just see the word and want this.
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  12. #112
    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    It's obvious people consider twitching to be fun and skillful so I would agree the devs shouldn't get rid of it - so I retract my original statement.

    My original point still stands that most people don't know and I don't consider it to be natural progression although it's possible people stumble across it when moving around to avoid damage. People find out it about why watching videos and/or other players telling them about it.

    I don't consider it an exploit but I don't think it's working as intended. Like many favorable game bugs I doubt it's a huge priority for the devs - and likely something they will never get to. As I said my main 2 characters are casters and there are advantages like this I learned with casting as well that are probably alot less know then twitching and of course I use those at times. Like twitching those aren't exploits either, but advantageous.

    It definitely makes balance a tough issue with devs when you have advantageous game features that are not documented and not known by the full player base.

    Anyhow not trying to take away from the great job Cetus did in the video.
    How long did it take you to learn that you could jump and cast to avoid getting slowed down?

  13. #113
    Community Member Kalevor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    So you want this and want to limit what you consider a sword? Even though the spell never worked on just swords, you just see the word and want this.
    So... you read minds now?

    I saw the idea to apply the spell to longsword, shortsword, greatsword and bastardsword only and i like it, maybe i'm wrong but i look at these weapon and right now all are underperforming...

    who think greatswords outside Sos are useful?
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  14. #114
    2015 DDO Players Council B0ltdrag0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalevor View Post
    So... you read minds now?

    I saw the idea to apply the spell to longsword, shortsword, greatsword and bastardsword only and i like it, maybe i'm wrong but i look at these weapon and right now all are underperforming...

    who think greatswords outside Sos are useful?
    Those are not the only things that are swords. Holy Weapon in both the game and pen and paper never worked on just 'swords'


    Edit: Actually we should just take this to another thread. This thread is relative blitz power.
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  15. #115
    Community Member Kalevor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    Those are not the only things that are swords. Holy Weapon in both the game and pen and paper never worked on just 'swords'


    Edit: Actually we should just take this to another thread. This thread is relative blitz power.
    Hmm... sorry the title of the thread confused me... i thought people was talking about paladin beign king of the hill instead of the max dps builds we have now on live...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum
    Come play Dungeons and Dragons! In heroic play you will face the evil minions of Demons... When and if you make it to Epic levels you face even greater threats. Threats like... giant rats and wolves!

  16. #116
    Community Member Pescha's Avatar
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    Dear Severlin you promised you wouldn't nerf Blitz as a whole, what happened (you even nerfed the innates) ?

    102 melee power (on lammania) vs 250 melee power (on live) clearly indicates that it's a nerf is it not ?
    Last edited by Pescha; 08-31-2014 at 09:48 AM.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pescha View Post
    Dear Severlin you promised you wouldn't nerf Blitz as a whole, what happened (you even nerfed the innates) ?

    102 melee power (on lammania) vs 250 melee power (on live) clearly indicates that it's a nerf is it not ?
    Damage wise, yes. But given that with the new changes in PRR people can stay in combat longer, actual DPS has gone up.

    The details are here:


    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...e-hard-numbershttps://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...e-hard-numbers

  18. #118
    Community Member Pescha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    Damage wise, yes. But given that with the new changes in PRR people can stay in combat longer, actual DPS has gone up.

    The details are here:


    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...e-hard-numbershttps://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...e-hard-numbers
    No please, no offense but i do not care about prr because it is defensive based and has nothing to do with dps.

    Defensive != Offensive because even with the prr changes i wouldn't notice a thing on a toon with high defensive abilities like dodge, ghostly, displacement, evasion, ac and prr to begin with but i would surely take notice of my actual dps being reduced by 41 %.

    I don't want to be rude but Math is more complicated than that and you forgot many other variables which take those effects as noted above into consideration not just prr and mrr.
    Last edited by Pescha; 08-31-2014 at 10:19 AM.

  19. #119
    Founder Lifespawn's Avatar
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    ^^^ this guy is just the newest throw away account here to troll and should quit as he threatens to so often.


    The way Blitz was before was op and broken the newest blitz could use a little more power maybe to 70 mp and maybe tweak the 10% charge to 15% but i think thats it

    250% damage the whole quest was broken and op i don't care how you want to try to justify it as it is the only epic moment that was permanent
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Fernando has yet to even suggest a nerf of anything.
    Oh and by the way (referring to your sig), we aren't nerfing the Torc.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by fTdOmen View Post
    How long did it take you to learn that you could jump and cast to avoid getting slowed down?
    I wasn't really referring to that - but not long.
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    Several characters on Sarlona all starting with "Rand" in the Guild "Guardians of House Cannith". My main four characters are Randowl (20 Warlock EA DPS Build), Randslar (Bard 14 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 2 Swashbuckler), Randek (Druid CC Caster 17/Fvs 3) and Randomall (Rogue 20 assassin).

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