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  1. #41
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    Ok - my apologies then.

    I don't know either. Someone on this thread is making it seem like it's some super Kamehameha ninja move that shall not be spoken of, while others are saying it's just dynamic combat. Googling the term brings up everything from people calling it a gamebreaking bug and exploit to it's just a technique of breaking the animation to get in a few extra swings in a shorter time then letting the full animation run through its rotation.

    I looked through the vid several times and I really couldn't identify any things that looked out of the ordinary (besides the size of the crits - good job Cetus BTW) so I'm in the same boat as you.

    I dont know what is being referred to.
    Last edited by MacRighteous; 08-29-2014 at 10:48 PM.

  2. #42
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    Twitching being beneficial is ridiculous. It doesn't take any skill to basically move a little when your swinging in order to exploit poorly coded swing animations.

    Why is it when you move, your +tohit decreases? Once upon a time many ages ago before massive stat inflation...that -4 tohit was actually pretty significant in a lot of situations and resulted in overall damage loss. Now that -4 tohit is pretty much negligible and moving for some reason becomes a damage increase? One can only hope this is an unintentional side effect of allowing glancing blows while moving and will be patched soon.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thayion516 View Post
    What is twitching?? I think I am misunderstanding this term.
    Basically, the delay between swings 1 and 2 is much shorter than the delay in swings 2 and 3 and 3 and 4. By moving after swings 1 and 2, or conversly holding still after swings one and two, you reset the chain back to swings one and two instead of doing swings three and four. This nets you a few extra swings per minute, at the small cost of some to hit (swings 3 and 4 have higher to hits if I remember right, also you incure a 4 to hit penalty for moving).

  4. #44
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    the way the current game is set up, twitch fighting isn't as easily done like it was before. running EE you move around to avoid damage and you need to stop fighting to heal up/buff up, which may also mean moving away from the mob to not be interrupted and get a full heal off. its easier though if you don't have the agro and able to surround a mob or just get on the back of a mob. in the old days, you could afford to stand toe to toe twitching with a mob while a healer kept you alive. it took some fancy foot work to keep the twitching going because if you messed up the sequence, you didn't get that extra hit. it did take a certain amount of skill to do it. today you cant help but move and it just plain makes sense to move while fighting anyways, so sometimes that can be confused with twitching when its not.

    if Cetus video shows him exploiting a bug, than you could say the same about half the player base. DDO is a live action game, not one of those other games where you just stand still taking turns with mobs swapping hits.
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  5. #45
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    Well, if you are talking about strafing a little left or right while attacking or holding down the spacebar every now and then... BFD! I've been doing that since Korthos Island. Also who doesn't try to flank their enemy in combat...? The only time I stand toe to toe with a mob is when I got a boss alone after killing all his adds and its just a race beating down a bag of hps before you get bored.

    Crom laughs at your twitch exploit suggestion, strong in his mountain.
    Last edited by MacRighteous; 08-30-2014 at 01:20 AM.

  6. #46
    Community Member Thayion516's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Basically, the delay between swings 1 and 2 is much shorter than the delay in swings 2 and 3 and 3 and 4. By moving after swings 1 and 2, or conversly holding still after swings one and two, you reset the chain back to swings one and two instead of doing swings three and four. This nets you a few extra swings per minute, at the small cost of some to hit (swings 3 and 4 have higher to hits if I remember right, also you incure a 4 to hit penalty for moving).
    So basicly you can move and break the coded attack chain for that round? Maybe it resets the round? And you are trying to get swings 1+2 then move and reset back to 1+2? Sounds like a PITA to me. Hell I got to move anyways or I will get beat down. I'm too busy trying not to die!

    However I can see the benefits of this loophole if you have the ability to focus on it. Thanks for the info.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    They don't but it is a nice story.
    How do the devs not know about it? Are we forgetting about a certain ability that turns you into a giant tree?

  8. #48
    2015 DDO Players Council B0ltdrag0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    How do the devs not know about it? Are we forgetting about a certain ability that turns you into a giant tree?
    Try again. The personal pronoun 'they' refers to the last multiple noun you spoke about.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Twitching has been around for years, the devs know about it, and the devs have "fixed" some instances of it in the past. It obviously isn't exploiting anything to use it.

    That said, as Monkey Archer's videos show, even without twitch "skill", these changes are way overpowered.
    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    They don't but it is a nice story.
    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    How do the devs not know about it? Are we forgetting about a certain ability that turns you into a giant tree?
    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    Try again. The personal pronoun 'they' refers to the last multiple noun you spoke about.

    Everybody is trying to be so clever and curt instead of just saying what they mean... are you referring to the videos?
    Last edited by MacRighteous; 08-29-2014 at 11:59 PM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacRighteous View Post
    everybody is trying to be so clever and curt instead of just saying what they mean... are you referring to the videos?
    Yeah I am just baffled as to who they are referring to if it is not the developers...

    Because I didn't see any reference to anyone else but the devs in that post...

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  11. #51
    2015 DDO Players Council B0ltdrag0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacRighteous View Post
    It wasn't direct either.
    It just seemed like more elitist fight club double talk at the time - but re-reading it seems more clear.
    You will find that I am a moderate/moderately high skilled player, but I have never been elitist. Just snarky.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    You know how I learned about twitching? By playing with good players and observing what they did, and how they played. I learned from watching and trying to emulate what I saw more talented people doing so that I could better myself. I even asked a few questions.

    It's not like twitch fighting is some great secret of the elitists, or some exploit on the hush hush they're not telling anyone about. It's just the natural progression of player skill. You observe your betters, try to emulate/learn from them in order to better yourself. Hell, I'm sure plenty of noobs have stumbled upon twitching purely on their own. That's the kind of thing that happens when you play the game.
    It's obvious people consider twitching to be fun and skillful so I would agree the devs shouldn't get rid of it - so I retract my original statement.

    My original point still stands that most people don't know and I don't consider it to be natural progression although it's possible people stumble across it when moving around to avoid damage. People find out it about why watching videos and/or other players telling them about it.

    I don't consider it an exploit but I don't think it's working as intended. Like many favorable game bugs I doubt it's a huge priority for the devs - and likely something they will never get to. As I said my main 2 characters are casters and there are advantages like this I learned with casting as well that are probably alot less know then twitching and of course I use those at times. Like twitching those aren't exploits either, but advantageous.

    It definitely makes balance a tough issue with devs when you have advantageous game features that are not documented and not known by the full player base.

    Anyhow not trying to take away from the great job Cetus did in the video.
    Last edited by slarden; 08-30-2014 at 03:03 AM.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Whats wrong with twitching? This is just a word thrown around to describe dynamic combat
    Dynamic (melee) combat means you position yourself to best hit the mobs without being hit too often yourself, including backing out to heal or cast buffs as needed. This is logical.
    Twitching (in DDO) to me refers to circumventing the fact that the attack animations are slower later in the attack chain. This is not logical but purely technical.

    I am not saying as such there is anything wrong with that and certainly not that its an exploit - but that it very well could be seen as a bug just as easily as it could been as intended. Hence I would like to have a clarification from a Dev if it is infact working as intended that you can interrupt and restart the attack animation chain and hence gain an advantage in number of attacks (which does take both some skill and knowledge).

    If its intended then that advantage should obviously be taken into account when comparing high end melee "power" with range or caster "power". I hope the answer is that it is infact intended and that the devs do include this when comparing melee to other styles of play.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    As I said my main 2 characters are casters and there are advantages like this I learned with casting as well that are probably alot less know then twitching and of course I use those at times. Like twitching those aren't exploits either, but advantageous.
    Now thats a teaser!

  15. #55
    2015 DDO Players Council Cetus's Avatar
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    I so don't care about devs taking the time out to address an 8 year old feature of this game that has been talked about ad nauseum years ago. Now, some new cats come around with their sense of entitlement crying about the difficulty of EE - forcing easy acquisition of the best gear, complaining that they can't get kills - so they dumb down skill-based maneuvers such as master's blitz on-kill mechanic, and now want normalized melee attack rates - so they can do the same damage as the elites while auto-attacking, with the same melee damage regardless of how you move your character.

    I'm sick of it
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    I so don't care about devs taking the time out to address an 8 year old feature of this game that has been talked about ad nauseum years ago. Now, some new cats come around with their sense of entitlement crying about the difficulty of EE - forcing easy acquisition of the best gear, complaining that they can't get kills - so they dumb down skill-based maneuvers such as master's blitz on-kill mechanic, and now want normalized melee attack rates - so they can do the same damage as the elites while auto-attacking, with the same melee damage regardless of how you move your character.

    I'm sick of it
    That. If casuals can't do elite... well, that explains why they are called casual players and not elite, they have their very own difficulty setting named after them - enjoy. I don't even understand this debate, people are simply ignorant even to the meaning of these two words or what?
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  17. #57
    2015 DDO Players Council B0ltdrag0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    I so don't care about devs taking the time out to address an 8 year old feature of this game that has been talked about ad nauseum years ago.
    You do care or you wouldn't make the rest of this post.
    Now, some new cats come around with their sense of entitlement crying about the difficulty of EE - forcing easy acquisition of the best gear,
    Irrelevant to this discussion. But no one cried about acuisition of gear on EE cause it was too hard.l In fact it was stated in another thread you made just the other day by a developer that, it was not why they changed from tiered loot. Tiered loot which was the pet project and solely implemented by a developer no longer with the company despite massive feedback against its initial inclusion.
    complaining that they can't get kills - so they dumb down skill-based maneuvers such as master's blitz on-kill mechanic,
    No one complained they cannot get kills. and swinging your weapon really hard is not a 'skill based' maneuver nor is killing things that are prepped for you, Blitz was not skill based before.
    and now want normalized melee attack rates - so they can do the same damage as the elites while auto-attacking, with the same melee damage regardless of how you move your character.
    Which is how it should have always been.

    I'm sick of it
    Everyone gets sick of hearing things they do not like.



    Quote Originally Posted by zoda
    That. If casuals can't do elite... well, that explains why they are called casual players and not elite, they have their very own difficulty setting named after them - enjoy. I don't even understand this debate, people are simply ignorant even to the meaning of these two words or what?
    First I am hardly casual, but I think the only people that do not understand this are those that seem to think that a casual player should only play casual difficulty.

    The same word is being used to describe two things.
    Casual players are based on the amount of time they can or are willing to spend in game.
    Casual difficulty is named such because they needed a name for a difficulty below what is 'normal' for game play.

    Elite players is a self aggrandizing tag that 'hardcore' players and others use to try and distinguish themselves because they have more time and money to dedicate to a game.
    Elite difficulty is named because that is the name of the higest difficulty. THey could have named it SUPER DUPER HARD YOU GUYS! and it would still be the hardest difficulty...but would players self identify as SUPER DUPER HARD players? No they wouldn't.
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    I so don't care about devs taking the time out to address an 8 year old feature of this game that has been talked about ad nauseum years ago. Now, some new cats come around with their sense of entitlement crying about the difficulty of EE - forcing easy acquisition of the best gear, complaining that they can't get kills - so they dumb down skill-based maneuvers such as master's blitz on-kill mechanic, and now want normalized melee attack rates - so they can do the same damage as the elites while auto-attacking, with the same melee damage regardless of how you move your character.

    I'm sick of it
    Agreed, It annoys the heck out of me, all they do is nerf this and nerf that nothing matters to them !

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    You do care or you wouldn't make the rest of this post. Irrelevant to this discussion. But no one cried about acuisition of gear on EE cause it was too hard.l In fact it was stated in another thread you made just the other day by a developer that, it was not why they changed from tiered loot. Tiered loot which was the pet project and solely implemented by a developer no longer with the company despite massive feedback against its initial inclusion. No one complained they cannot get kills. and swinging your weapon really hard is not a 'skill based' maneuver nor is killing things that are prepped for you, Blitz was not skill based before. Which is how it should have always been.


    Everyone gets sick of hearing things they do not like.




    First I am hardly casual, but I think the only people that do not understand this are those that seem to think that a casual player should only play casual difficulty.

    The same word is being used to describe two things.
    Casual players are based on the amount of time they can or are willing to spend in game.
    Casual difficulty is named such because they needed a name for a difficulty below what is 'normal' for game play.

    Elite players is a self aggrandizing tag that 'hardcore' players and others use to try and distinguish themselves because they have more time and money to dedicate to a game.
    Elite difficulty is named because that is the name of the higest difficulty. THey could have named it SUPER DUPER HARD YOU GUYS! and it would still be the hardest difficulty...but would players self identify as SUPER DUPER HARD players? No they wouldn't.
    Wow just Wow so what you are basically saying is that masters blitz on live doesn't require skills ?

    R.I.P Logic.

    Sorry but i have never heard of such nonsense like this before.
    Last edited by Pescha; 08-30-2014 at 03:37 PM.

  20. #60
    2015 DDO Players Council Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    You do care or you wouldn't make the rest of this post.
    Again, you didn't comprehend what it was I didn't care about. Yes, I made the post. No, I don't care about dev time spent on tweaking something that existed forever because a few people decide to argue a game of semantics as to what the definition of "twitch" is.


    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    Irrelevant to this discussion. But no one cried about acuisition of gear on EE cause it was too hard.l In fact it was stated in another thread you made just the other day by a developer that, it was not why they changed from tiered loot.
    Irrelevant? Of course, cheap tactic to call something irrelevant when you can't address it.

    In that very thread you mention, yes a developer mentioned that there are "reasons". But, when several posters asked for specifics - all we heard was silence. Evidence is a wonderful thing, I believe nothing without it. Neither should you.


    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    Tiered loot which was the pet project and solely implemented by a developer no longer with the company despite massive feedback against its initial inclusion.
    Show me this feedback. Apparently the annihilation of DDO escapes my memory when EGH came around. Actually, I remember just the opposite effect - and it had a tiered loot system AND the FOT upgrade system. Not one, but BOTH. Now we have neither.

    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    No one complained they cannot get kills.
    Apparently the devs disagreed with you - because the opposite was directly stated by the devs when asked why blitz change was warranted. Look at severlins posting history for evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    and swinging your weapon really hard is not a 'skill based' maneuver nor is killing things that are prepped for you, Blitz was not skill based before.
    Swinging really hard? What does that mean? I either swing, or I don't - I don't know how to swing really hard.

    Killing things is difficult when you have 5 other party members NOT accommodating you. Hence there's competition, and competition involves player skill - this includes running speed, quest knowledge, TWITCHING, effectively switching between weapons based on encounters, and timing your blitz activation. Then there's cycling of buffs, and recharging blitz after entering doorways while party members are ahead - all of these dynamics are SKILL based.

    Now, you really don't need much of that - just whip out a masterwork dagger so it does as little damage as possible, and charge it on...anything.




    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    Everyone gets sick of hearing things they do not like.
    That's true...

    And in this case, I don't like turbine groveling to and coddling entitled infants who have no concept of working for reward.




    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    First I am hardly casual
    Not convinced just from you saying so.


    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    Elite players is a self aggrandizing tag that 'hardcore' players and others use to try and distinguish themselves because they have more time and money to dedicate to a game.
    Less to do with money and time, more to do with atittude. I barely play nowadays and spend 10 bucks a month - I still consider myself an elite player.

    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    Elite difficulty is named because that is the name of the higest difficulty. THey could have named it SUPER DUPER HARD YOU GUYS! and it would still be the hardest difficulty...but would players self identify as SUPER DUPER HARD players? No they wouldn't.
    Lol
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