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  1. #61
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellihor View Post
    Funny you create mlee power to fix mlees because all of them were speding **** loads of investment on archery because it was worth it. People would even sacrifice mlee style feats (THF line) to take archery feats. So, now your going to add ranged power to the same amount, guess whats gonna happen? Everyone will just take manyshot again. Welcome to 2013 reloaded! (but with tons of extra power creep - and a much inferior game compared to u17)
    Your connecting the wrong dots

    Melee power was added to help Melees damage scale higher EE hp bloat mobs

    Melees were using Ranged in EE as a survival tactic < Armor up felt with that

    Ranged power is going to help ranged deal with EE hp bloat mobs (announced at the same time as Melee Power but, delayed)

    Dots connected

  2. #62
    Community Member dontmater's Avatar
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    ranged jest needs a small bump, i play rangerficers

  3. #63
    Community Member Kawai's Avatar
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    Smile

    sorry i missed this Chai...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Im fine with 18 levels, as that still allows 2 levels for splashing something else.
    Why would mana affect manyshot?
    was in idea land there...
    -stated as should.

    back in day...
    AA had pre-req's.
    One of which being Mental Toughness for Spell-Points pool.
    i remember asking... why?
    was told: For Imbuing arrows, & performing amazing things with bow.
    -manyshot etc.
    thus the name, Arcane Archer...

    i think it should stick to that.
    a larger pool of mana should equal more arrows/longer timer during Manyshot while imbued sort of thing.
    this alone would help out Pures, and rlly srsly **** off the low fruit wanna beez, but i dun care.

    wouldn't worry much about it though...
    The powers that be cannot yet fathom what needs done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxarhamar View Post
    Imbues for Ranger & Artificer should

    1) scale with level
    2) be affected by Ranged power not Spell power.
    which is again, why im sticking to previous.
    The imbues should most defiantly be adjusted by Spell Power of that damage type.

    Ranged Power by itself is still very weak, & i believe it should stay separated from Spell-Power.
    -they should both affect it, & will still not be overpowered...
    --especially the limited ways upon which we're forced to choose @building them.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    You're doing it for levels and ED's for Melee Power.

    There should be the same or similar addition to Ranged Power. Just because Monkchers are good in LD and Fury doesn't mean they should be terrible in literally every other destiny including Shiradi. In fact, that's the argument for why you need to add Ranged Power to most destinies and to Epic Levels.

    Would love to hear relevant arguments why this is not true.
    You think you are the only player running around in off destinies?
    Main Characters: Korkoch the Cruel, Sylhuetta Sidhe...Thelanis

  5. #65
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    This is D&D not Gauntlet...when did you ever play an archer solely on PNP? Is that logical? Really? Casters also had limited spells, they still carried weapons. If you go back to basic D&D...wizards (called magic users back then) at level one had one spell and any extra he had was from intelligence. Sometimes you are forced to fight like a man.

    https://video.search.yahoo.com/video...fr=mcafee&tt=b
    Last edited by Enderoc; 04-06-2015 at 02:40 AM.
    Main Characters: Korkoch the Cruel, Sylhuetta Sidhe...Thelanis

  6. #66
    Community Member skorpeon's Avatar
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    Default hmm I watched that video for longer than I should have!

    Quote Originally Posted by Enderoc View Post
    This is D&D not Gauntlet...when did you ever play an archer solely on PNP? Is that logical? Really? Casters also had limited spells, they still carried weapons. If you go back to basic D&D...wizards (called magic users back then) at level one had one spell and any extra he had was from intelligence. Sometimes you are forced to fight like a man.

    https://video.search.yahoo.com/video...fr=mcafee&tt=b
    Funny I do remember playing that game, I don't think I was very good at that game either.
    G-land, member of Trys Paladium
    Main characters, Tymout, Tymkul, Tymbom, Tymantha


  7. #67
    Community Member eachna_gislin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kawai View Post
    sorry i missed this Chai...



    was in idea land there...
    -stated as should.

    back in day...
    AA had pre-req's.
    One of which being Mental Toughness for Spell-Points pool.
    i remember asking... why?
    was told: For Imbuing arrows, & performing amazing things with bow.
    -manyshot etc.
    thus the name, Arcane Archer...

    i think it should stick to that.
    a larger pool of mana should equal more arrows/longer timer during Manyshot while imbued sort of thing.
    this alone would help out Pures, and rlly srsly **** off the low fruit wanna beez, but i dun care.
    I'm not sure this is a good idea. It would actually severely overbalance AA's towards elves/helves in pure caster classes. Probably also sorcs/FvS that splash ranger.

    My Level 12 pure helf cleric, with a sp ioun stone and no sp greensteel has 1000sp. She hasn't put any points into any feat/enhancement that give extra spellpoints other than Arcanum, which gives her +50 sp and 2 spell pen. So, she's not trying at all. I'm pretty sure however high I could push her spellpoints, a ranger couldn't get close.

    While I'd like to see my girl doing better than she is right now (AA sucks on a cleric), I'd still rather see rangers be even better.

  8. #68
    Community Member Kawai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eachna_gislin View Post
    I'm not sure this is a good idea. It would actually severely overbalance AA's towards elves/helves in pure caster classes. Probably also sorcs/FvS that splash ranger.

    My Level 12 pure helf cleric, with a sp ioun stone and no sp greensteel has 1000sp. She hasn't put any points into any feat/enhancement that give extra spellpoints other than Arcanum, which gives her +50 sp and 2 spell pen. So, she's not trying at all. I'm pretty sure however high I could push her spellpoints, a ranger couldn't get close.

    While I'd like to see my girl doing better than she is right now (AA sucks on a cleric), I'd still rather see rangers be even better.
    ah, then you missed previous comment page back...
    Quote Originally Posted by Kawai View Post
    negative. needs 2b Pure Ranger lvls for RP;
    ditto w/ return of Ranged Alacrity @ around 16/18/20,
    along w/ tiers 1-3 on Imbues (all) & 2ndary Imbues & Slayers.

    Also, Mana should b affecting Manyshot, bigtime.
    o, & Imbue Damage should also be affected by Spell Power for damage type.
    everything should b rewarded/balanced @higher levels of class.
    -ditto with imbues.
    Pure Ranger Levels should make huge difference.

    might b able 2 boost one spelltype as pure, but not all 5.
    -at least, not enough ta matter.

  9. #69
    Community Member eachna_gislin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kawai View Post
    ah, then you missed previous comment page back...


    everything should b rewarded/balanced @higher levels of class.
    -ditto with imbues.
    Pure Ranger Levels should make huge difference.

    might b able 2 boost one spelltype as pure, but not all 5.
    -at least, not enough ta matter.
    What you wrote is pretty close to incomprehensible. You might want to consider typing out full words and sentences.

    If spellpoints add to AA damage, then pure caster classes (with elf or helf racial builds) have an advantage.

    If pure ranger levels add to AA damage, then it cripples *all* racial builds. Note that not all racial AA builds need have a lot of spell points. You could just as easily do a pure Rogue or Monk racial AA build, and get spellpoints from the racial tree and the AA tree. Or a fighter/wizard split. Or a bard, or bard/barbarian, all of which would have gimped spell points.

    "Pure Ranger Levels should make huge difference" should only apply when compared to Ranger splash AA builds. Racial AA builds should be given ranged power a different way than counting Ranger levels. Racial builds shave off 14 AP to unlock AA, get cores more slowly than Ranger AA's, and don't get the free archery feats that Rangers get. They shouldn't get left out of any adjustments to ranged power on top of that.

    An optimal adjustment to AA would give enough ranged power to both Ranger AA's and Racial AA's that neither would suck, but Ranger AA's would have a clear advantage.

  10. #70
    Community Member Kawai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eachna_gislin View Post
    What you wrote is pretty close to incomprehensible. You might want to consider typing out full words and sentences.
    hrmmmm.
    *pause to consider...

    nah

    Quote Originally Posted by eachna_gislin View Post
    If spellpoints add to AA damage, then pure caster classes (with elf or helf racial builds) have an advantage.
    Spellpoints would not add to damage. (except ofc, for durations) WAI
    SPELLPOWER would add to damage.

    SpellPoints would control how long Manyshot lasts, how fast it recovers, etc.
    Creating some wierdace build that includes three classes of whichever?
    ...got no spellpoints?
    ...too bad, how sad.
    --its called Balance.

    There's plenty of ways to add spellpoints.
    The overpowered fotm builds will just haz ta give up something to get them, won't they?

    Quote Originally Posted by eachna_gislin View Post
    An optimal adjustment to AA would give enough ranged power to both Ranger AA's and Racial AA's that neither would suck, but Ranger AA's would have a clear advantage.
    as they should

  11. #71
    Community Member eachna_gislin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kawai View Post
    hrmmmm.
    *pause to consider...

    nah



    Spellpoints would not add to damage. (except ofc, for durations) WAI
    SPELLPOWER would add to damage.

    SpellPoints would control how long Manyshot lasts, how fast it recovers, etc.
    Creating some wierdace build that includes three classes of whichever?
    ...got no spellpoints?
    ...too bad, how sad.
    --its called Balance.

    There's plenty of ways to add spellpoints.
    The overpowered fotm builds will just haz ta give up something to get them, won't they?



    as they should
    This is why typing in comprehensible sentences is important. People cannot understand your random babbling when you don't.

    Elves and half-elves are granted access to the Arcane Archer tree by virtue of their race. They are inherently arcane and they are inherently predisposed to archery. It's not "Balance" to make AA unplayable without a large pool of spellpoints. Nor is it "Balance" to make it unplayable without a lot of Ranger levels.

    Fixes to Arcane Archer need to also be available to racial Arcane Archers. I'm sorry if you can't understand that, but it _is_ in fact part of balancing the tree.

  12. #72
    Community Member Kawai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eachna_gislin View Post
    This is why typing in comprehensible sentences is important. People cannot understand your random babbling when you don't.

    Elves and half-elves are granted access to the Arcane Archer tree by virtue of their race. They are inherently arcane and they are inherently predisposed to archery. It's not "Balance" to make AA unplayable without a large pool of spellpoints. Nor is it "Balance" to make it unplayable without a lot of Ranger levels.

    Fixes to Arcane Archer need to also be available to racial Arcane Archers. I'm sorry if you can't understand that, but it _is_ in fact part of balancing the tree.
    Racial/Elves still hav as much access to SpellPoints as anyone else.
    I know this, & live by it. so can u.

    -motion denied.
    next?

  13. #73
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eachna_gislin View Post
    This is why typing in comprehensible sentences is important. People cannot understand your random babbling when you don't.

    Elves and half-elves are granted access to the Arcane Archer tree by virtue of their race. They are inherently arcane and they are inherently predisposed to archery. It's not "Balance" to make AA unplayable without a large pool of spellpoints. Nor is it "Balance" to make it unplayable without a lot of Ranger levels.

    Fixes to Arcane Archer need to also be available to racial Arcane Archers. I'm sorry if you can't understand that, but it _is_ in fact part of balancing the tree.
    If im an elf 20 AA.....spell points available include:

    100 Arcanum - racial - because elves are inherently arcane.
    150 Shroud item
    250 Spell point item
    ------------------------------------------------
    60 3 sorc lives requires TR
    60 3 FvS lives requires TR
    ----------------------------------------------
    145 mental toughness requires having one class level of something that can cast spells
    145 improved mental toughness requires being able to cast 3rd level spells
    200 epic mental toughness
    80 magical training
    ---------------------------------------------
    Even if you only grabbed the low hanging fruit from the list youll still have enough SP to play an AA.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    You're doing it for levels and ED's for Melee Power.

    There should be the same or similar addition to Ranged Power. Just because Monkchers are good in LD and Fury doesn't mean they should be terrible in literally every other destiny including Shiradi. In fact, that's the argument for why you need to add Ranged Power to most destinies and to Epic Levels.

    Would love to hear relevant arguments why this is not true.
    or similarly why ranged artificers cant get ranged love in an arcane tree (draconic im looking at you) when they can only choose arcane trees

  15. #75
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kawai View Post
    i think it should stick to that.
    a larger pool of mana should equal more arrows/longer timer during Manyshot while imbued sort of thing.
    this alone would help out Pures, and rlly srsly **** off the low fruit wanna beez, but i dun care.
    Manyshot is an archery feat, not an Arcane Archer exclusive.

    It would be nice if AAs got proper imbues that allowed them to cast spells on shot and scaled with level e.g. Fireball Shot, but I see no reason or "balance" in neutering all other archer builds except AA/blue bar classes.
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

  16. #76
    Community Member Kawai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Manyshot is an archery feat, not an Arcane Archer exclusive.

    It would be nice if AAs got proper imbues that allowed them to cast spells on shot and scaled with level e.g. Fireball Shot, but I see no reason or "balance" in neutering all other archer builds except AA/blue bar classes.
    true, in a way, and valid points...
    except:

    this would not neuter any other "Archer" builds.
    rather, it would work toward balancing.

    &4 sake of arguing:

    ive seen many exceptional "Archery Feats" in this real world of ours.
    YouNoob is full of them.

    But ive yet to see anyone knock 4arrows @a time & release a volley each half second.
    -that seems, a bit ARCANE.
    & would indeed justify where that Mana is going.

    so yea, still going there with this thread.

  17. #77
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kawai View Post
    true, in a way, and valid points...
    except:

    this would not neuter any other "Archer" builds.
    rather, it would work toward balancing.
    Requiring every archer to have a blue bar to be viable != balance.


    ive seen many exceptional "Archery Feats" in this real world of ours.
    YouNoob is full of them.

    But ive yet to see anyone knock 4arrows @a time & release a volley each half second.
    The game works on fantasy tropes as much as real life. More so, even. If we take, say, Legolas as an archetypical elven archer, we see him nock multiple arrows on more than one occasion. Even in real life, shooting 2 arrows simultaneously is nothing uncommon (albeit affects accuracy/speed, which is reflected in PnP D&D rules but not in DDO).

    There's also a real-life trick-shooting technique, whereby multiple arrows are drawn to be released in quick succession, which is also somewhat similar to Manyshot.

    DDO just takes this stuff to eleven due to its nature as a fantasy game, i.e. not having to be totally realistic.


    -that seems, a bit ARCANE.
    & would indeed justify where that Mana is going.[/

    so yea, still going there with this thread.
    Arcane, in the context of D&D means "of or relating to arcane magic". Imbuing arrows with arcane magic properties is an arcane talent. Nocking several arrows at a time is a purely physical feat (perhaps reaching mythical proportions at higher levels).


    TL;DR: Disagree on the mechanical level, disagree on the lore level, reasoning above. I would not mind it, however, if Manyshot worked more like Shuriken Expertise - closer to PnP roots, plus devs would be able to finally stop balancing around its insane burst damage.
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

  18. #78
    Community Member eachna_gislin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    Hey all,

    This release doesn't include a pass to balance ranged builds. Although there are some good ranged options out there, a lot of ranged builds are left behind in the epic levels. We plan on doing a ranged pass at a future date.

    Sev~
    Please make sure adjustments to ranged builds affect racial Arcane Archers. It's not reasonable to expect racial builds to have enough feat slot to take feats like Weapon Specialization and Weapon Focus in order to get any ranged power at all. Nor will they benefit from any ranged power granted for ranger levels.

    Among other things, bow speed really needs to be adjusted just like repeaters had their animations updated. I can, without hyperbole, fire (accurately) faster than my character, and I'm only a hobby archer.

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