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  1. #1
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Default The Official Why Aren't you Adding Ranged Power to EDs That Are Bad at Ranged Thread?

    You're doing it for levels and ED's for Melee Power.

    There should be the same or similar addition to Ranged Power. Just because Monkchers are good in LD and Fury doesn't mean they should be terrible in literally every other destiny including Shiradi. In fact, that's the argument for why you need to add Ranged Power to most destinies and to Epic Levels.

    Would love to hear relevant arguments why this is not true.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    You're doing it for levels and ED's for Melee Power.

    There should be the same or similar addition to Ranged Power. Just because Monkchers are good in LD and Fury doesn't mean they should be terrible in literally every other destiny including Shiradi. In fact, that's the argument for why you need to add Ranged Power to most destinies and to Epic Levels.

    Would love to hear relevant arguments why this is not true.

    the addition to melee power was to bring melee up to par with casters and ranged. So it makes sense that they would only focus on melee at the moment. also, since blitz is giving ranged power along with melee power, its quite possible that the epic levels will give ranged power also, though im not sure on that.

    it has already been said that EDs will receive ranged power in the future, most likely after they crunch the numbers between the melee power and casters/ranged once its on live.

  3. #3
    Community Member Takllin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    You're doing it for levels and ED's for Melee Power.

    There should be the same or similar addition to Ranged Power. Just because Monkchers are good in LD and Fury doesn't mean they should be terrible in literally every other destiny including Shiradi. In fact, that's the argument for why you need to add Ranged Power to most destinies and to Epic Levels.

    Would love to hear relevant arguments why this is not true.
    Geez, people, please read Dev posts before you go clamoring about something that isn't true.

    They have stated that they are only working on melee power currently, and that ranged power is going to be added into the game at a later date. It isn't that they won't add ranger power, they are just solely focusing on melee power for the time being.

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  4. #4
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    Hi,

    For whatever reason, shiradi has been left out of the melee power increase that every other primal and martial destiny is getting, as well as a divine one.

    I think this omission, and what you're talking about, is an attempt to 'balance' the destinies. Perhaps the thinking is that destinies which get a melee power buff shouldn't also get a ranged power buff. The problem with this line of thinking is that the abilities in FoTW and LD work very well with ranged combat too, and will continue to do so.

    It's already possible to deliver massive amounts of damage in ranged combat with FoTW and LD compared to the other primal and martial destines. This will be further increased if there is an addition to ranged combat power for each epic level above 20, even if those two destinies don't receive additional increases for their core abilities.

    The outcome of this will be that shiradi, which is already a weak ranged destiny in terms of its damage output, will continue to lag behind FoTW and LD as a DPS destiny for ranged characters. It will be even further behind for those running in it who also melee. It will also continue to favour high rate of fire builds over low rate of fire builds, which is a serious problem with the destiny now, and will become even more so. That doesn't really seem like balance to me.

    The more I read about the introduction of melee and ranged power, the more it seems to me that it will create more problems than it will solve. Time will tell, but I think the better solution would have been to rework some of the EDs, with particular attention to the very well and badly performing ones, rather than this band aid solution we are getting.

    Thanks.
    Astrican on Khyber

  5. #5
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    None of you are addressing the fact that being a Monkcher or Thrower in ANY destiny other than Fury or LD (NEITHER OF WHICH ARE RANGED DESTINIES) makes a complete gimp.

    1. Monkchers are only good in Fury because of Adrenaline + Slayer Arrow. Without that they are a joke (ie all other destinies)

    2. Monkchers are only good in LD because of 10 Stacks of Masters Blitz, which will be getting Ranged power this update. This totally negates the argument that Melee Power is meant to make Melee's more competitive with ranged. All that's happening this update is that ALL ranged characters will be forced to ALWAYS be in LD because everything else will be terrible.

    So why isn't Ranged power being added to other destinies? Ranged builds are arguably worse off in other destinies than LD and FotW now than Melee builds.

    Ranged builds are not inherently good, they are only good if you make specific builds in specific destinies. Otherwise, they are largely terrible.

    If you play a ranged character (thrown, or bow, or XBow), you will be a fool not to run in LD after this update, since it's the only one with Ranged Power going in.

    I hope you all like having only 1 good Destiny to run in. That's what this update is doing.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takllin View Post
    Geez, people, please read Dev posts before you go clamoring about something that isn't true.

    They have stated that they are only working on melee power currently, and that ranged power is going to be added into the game at a later date. It isn't that they won't add ranger power, they are just solely focusing on melee power for the time being.
    This.

  7. #7
    Community Member Takllin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    None of you are addressing the fact that being a Monkcher or Thrower in ANY destiny other than Fury or LD (NEITHER OF WHICH ARE RANGED DESTINIES) makes a complete gimp.

    1. Monkchers are only good in Fury because of Adrenaline + Slayer Arrow. Without that they are a joke (ie all other destinies)

    2. Monkchers are only good in LD because of 10 Stacks of Masters Blitz, which will be getting Ranged power this update. This totally negates the argument that Melee Power is meant to make Melee's more competitive with ranged. All that's happening this update is that ALL ranged characters will be forced to ALWAYS be in LD because everything else will be terrible.

    So why isn't Ranged power being added to other destinies? Ranged builds are arguably worse off in other destinies than LD and FotW now than Melee builds.

    Ranged builds are not inherently good, they are only good if you make specific builds in specific destinies. Otherwise, they are largely terrible.

    If you play a ranged character (thrown, or bow, or XBow), you will be a fool not to run in LD after this update, since it's the only one with Ranged Power going in.

    I hope you all like having only 1 good Destiny to run in. That's what this update is doing.
    Please wait until they actually add Ranged Power into the game, your making a huge fuss about something that hasn't even been implemented yet. They didn't purposefully leave ranged power out of destinies because they don't want ranged characters to use those destinies.

    They didn't add it yet simply because they are focusing on Melee Power now, and then they will do Ranged Power.

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takllin View Post
    Please wait until they actually add Ranged Power into the game, your making a huge fuss about something that hasn't even been implemented yet. They didn't purposefully leave ranged power out of destinies because they don't want ranged characters to use those destinies.

    They didn't add it yet simply because they are focusing on Melee Power now, and then they will do Ranged Power.
    Hi,

    No, nothing has been announced yet. I can't speak for the OP, but at this point it's probably safe to make two assumptions about what will occur.

    1. That ranged power will only be added to the core abilities of EDs which didn't receive melee power boosts.

    It's very hard for me to believe that Turbine would boost already strong destinies like LD and FoTW by giving them both melee and ranged power buffs. Shiradi is likely to receive a buff. I'm not sure what will happen to shadowdancer, primal avatar and GMOF, but although I suspect they won't get it, it might not matter either way.

    2. That the ranged power buff will be similar to the buffs for melee power.

    I think this one is less certain, but will probably occur. It's also possible that there won't be a flat epic level increase to ranged power and that it will only be applied to the core ED abilities of certain destinies, due to the belief that ranged combat is already strong enough in most cases.

    That would be a shame in my view, because there the field of ranged builds putting out decent DPS for difficult endgame content is pretty limited. The rest lag quite far behind and are really flavour choices with niche effectiveness but overall seem to have quite suboptimal DPS. I love playing my shiradi ranger, but I'm not kidding myself that he puts out anywhere near the ranged damage of a FOTW or LD build.

    Anyway, I don't think there's any harm in getting a speculative discussion going about this. In fact, I think it's quite important because there seems to be a lack of understanding at Turbine about ranged combat.

    I think the devs who have in recent discussions indicated to us that they didn't understand blitz worked with ranged combat, and who stated in another post that they think it's multishot (sic) and 10k stars which give ranged power at epic levels rather than ED selection and build synergy (sorry), should be commended for their honesty rather than ridiculed for lack of understanding. But it also does worry me that we are hearing things like this.

    The point I made in my last post was that the way certain abilities in the EDs work for ranged combat applying selective ranged power buffs to some destinies might not do a lot to even things out between them in terms of their damage output.

    I think FOTW and LD will continue to remain strong choices because of the way their best abilities work with ranged combat, and while shiradi will improve somewhat it still won't be overall competitive, not for full-time ranged combat, and certainly not for melee/ranged hybrids.

    I think the better solution would be reworking the destinies, but that doesn't seem like a realistic option at this point.

    Thanks.
    Astrican on Khyber

  9. #9
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    I agree with Astrican on some points.

    Largely that the Devs don't seem to understand where current power comes from for ranged builds, and that Melee and Ranged power are not the way to fix issues, reworking destinies is.

  10. #10
    Executive Producer Severlin's Avatar
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    Hey all,

    This release doesn't include a pass to balance ranged builds. Although there are some good ranged options out there, a lot of ranged builds are left behind in the epic levels. We plan on doing a ranged pass at a future date.

    Sev~

  11. #11
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post

    ... a lot of ranged builds are left behind in the epic levels.....

    Sev~
    Like Ranger?
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  12. #12
    Community Member Kawai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    ... complete gimp.

    1. Monkchers are only good in Fury because of Adrenaline + Slayer Arrow. Without that they are a joke (ie all other destinies)

    2 ...everything else will be terrible.

    3. Ranged builds are not inherently good, they are only good if you make specific builds in specific destinies. Otherwise, they are largely terrible.

    I hope you all like having only 1 good Destiny to run in. That's what this update is doing.
    Wow.
    Srsly
    I have utmost respect for any 2006er
    but pray tell, how does one hang around that long without knowing how to build/play ranged?

    do u roll one, then delete it after lvl 2?

    srsly

    or did u take a long break?
    r u one of those "back in DDO need help" threaders?

    don't understand.
    _______________________

    now the me me me me part everyone hates:
    ive built just about every ranged build there is, most of which the lemmings here will never see & copy over.
    dont have any issues with any of them...
    -INCLUDING PURE RANGER (which is just fine in EE)

    let them have their passes
    whtvr

    Sev's already said Ranged will have a pass in future.
    cross that bridge when it gets here.
    *shrug

  13. #13
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    Hey all,

    This release doesn't include a pass to balance ranged builds. Although there are some good ranged options out there, a lot of ranged builds are left behind in the epic levels. We plan on doing a ranged pass at a future date.

    Sev~
    The only "good" ranged builds are Fury archers and shiradi shuriken throwers, thats it. (well and the whole Blitz melee/archer mix)


    Shiradi archers/xbow users stink.
    Fury shuriken throwers/xbow users stink.
    ALL non-shuriken throwers stink. ALL Xbows stink (compared to equivalent ranged/melee weapons)


    Solution=
    DOUBLE proc rate of shiradi with crossbows/bows, and make Fury with throwers hit harder.
    Making DDO a better game 1 post at a time!

    Triple EVERYTHING Completionist= Heroic 42/42, Iconic 12/12, Epic 36/36

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    Hey all,

    This release doesn't include a pass to balance ranged builds. Although there are some good ranged options out there, a lot of ranged builds are left behind in the epic levels. We plan on doing a ranged pass at a future date.

    Sev~
    Could you at least add Ranged Power to base Epic levels right now, so we can get 70? Even if you cant weave it into Destinies yet?

  15. #15
    Executive Producer Severlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Could you at least add Ranged Power to base Epic levels right now, so we can get 70? Even if you cant weave it into Destinies yet?
    That would make the top ranged builds way too good.

    Sev~

  16. #16
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    That would make the top ranged builds way too good.

    Sev~
    Change manyshot and 10k stars to be stances that increase double shot% then add ranged power.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    That would make the top ranged builds way too good.

    Sev~
    It's sad that all other ranged builds are held back because a couple builds that exploit abilities are overpowered.
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  18. #18
    Executive Producer Severlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
    It's sad that all other ranged builds are held back because a couple builds that exploit abilities are overpowered.
    If we included a ranged pass we'd push this update to Christmas and maybe into next year.

    We've tried to get players a lot of content and lots of cool new goodies for this update; at some point we have to actually get the update into the hands of the players and start the next one.

    Sev~

  19. #19
    Community Member Sgt_Hart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    If we included a ranged pass we'd push this update to Christmas and maybe into next year.

    We've tried to get players a lot of content and lots of cool new goodies for this update; at some point we have to actually get the update into the hands of the players and start the next one.

    Sev~
    $0.02: Give the ranged power planned builds.. 2 per core, and make a great big song and dance show about how "This is just to clear up what can and will get RP in the RP pass to come, but we didn't want to leave you out in the cold."

    As you say, its easy to tweak the numbers as needed.
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  20. #20
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    Hi Sev,

    I asked this in another thread but if I may I'll ask again. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the near future for ranged builds.

    Will things that scale with Melee power (SA, Venomed Blades, Paladin light damage) do so even if they are triggered by a ranged attack?

    -Thanks
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