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Thread: Fighters...

  1. #1
    Community Member djinnishah's Avatar
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    Angry Fighters...

    We've been playing DDO since it started and got a friend to play a few years ago.
    This person prefers fighter builds over other playing styles. We have played with
    an abundance of other fighters that take aggro and do fine with melee, but this
    person swears that fighters have been completely nerfed.

    His argument is that one cannot melee in EH or EE and survive. He also complains
    at low levels on leet at times. He completely refuses to run EE and complained over
    EH till he got a TR'd fighter. Still, he is often the first to die... Even with a TR he
    refuses to run EE and despite being on his 3rd fighter TR... says he will not run
    EE till fighters are unnerfed. Actually... he is currently not playing because of
    his unwavering opinion.

    Tell me guys... are fighters truly nerfed? Are all melee toons now irrelevant in the
    game other then monks and monk mix builds? Is this an exaggeration?

    These are not my words, but the words of someone who says he has done everything
    he can to "fix his fighter" and cannot.

  2. #2
    Community Member Thayion516's Avatar
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    That's a pretty ambiguous question. I would need specifics. Gear, AP, feats ect. And what playstyle?

  3. #3
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    The changes on the preview/test server Lamania is trying to make things better for melees, especially armored melees. While these changes are still not set in stone (the numbers are probably going change) the idea is to make melees have better scaling damage through epic levels, and make armor reduced incoming damage (both physical, as always, and now some AOE magical damage as well) more than before.

    I think your friend should wait for these changes to hit live and see if they help
    It's definitely an N-word.

  4. #4
    Community Member djinnishah's Avatar
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    Thank you Dandrock. I will advise him of this, in hopes
    he will find a solution to his issues.

    As far as his complaints... the list is relatively short.
    He cannot do damage. He drops quick. Fighters are "nerfed".
    According to him there is nothing he can do, that he
    hasn't done already. Husband and I disagree...

    For a better visual.

    Imagine being a rogue, sorc, ranger or healer, and running with
    a fighter... who waits for you to take aggro, often hiding in the back.
    No joke. Running past us, leading aggro to healers and casters.

    3 time TR Dwarf fighter w/a Ranger splash for Duel wield
    dwarf axes. I suggested the Ranger splash for that purpose in
    hopes it would cease his complaints. It did not...

    2 time TR Horc Fighter, who was a Barbarian part of his first life.
    Heavy armor and Great Weapons, primarily Greataxe.

    He states he has a high AC, and he thinks his weapons are fine. The
    primary thing we hear is fighters are nerfed and that is the excuse
    we get for everything...

    Thus... I guess my primary question to fighters should be... do you
    all feel nerfed? Heavy and light?

  5. #5
    Community Member Nickademus's Avatar
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    Your friend seems to have an opinion separate from the game. I doubt any data you collect here will be of use talking to him.

    For the record, with good gear I was soloing EH on my fighter. Could do EE in a party if I wanted but it was a bit harsh. Sounds like he just prefers the easy button and dislikes challenge.

  6. #6
    Community Member Thayion516's Avatar
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    What level are we talking about? Lv 5, 15 or 25? That's important due to difficulty ramps up at you go. Also, what is good ac? AC is generally though of as the weakest defensive layer in game. Good defense in DDO is "layered" as in, a stacking combination of ghostly, blurr/displacement, dodge, prr, saves, with AC bringing in the rear. A Mobs attack must pass through all these layers to connect. If he is relying on AC only, he Wil not be very survivable.

    Layered defense is the way in DDO.

    And as far as "good AC" goes, I've found that 4 X level is a good starting point for AC at any level.

    Also for melee damage. First off, focus on critical profile, critical multiplier increase, [W] weapon damage dice increases, strength addition, then effects and so forth.


    Other then those basics IDK without more info.
    Last edited by Thayion516; 08-26-2014 at 05:11 AM.

  7. #7
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    For the most part your friend is correct that building a melee for EE is much harder than building a caster for EE. That will likely change with U23, but to what degree we don't fully know yet. Have your friend test on Lamannia and provide feedback if it's important to him. U23 is possibly the most significant update for melees ever. Building a swashbuckler that can cast displacement, self heal and with a nice enhancement tree might be the way to go as an entry point into EE. Look under the bard forum under classes for several great swashbuckler melee builds. I tried out a few different swashbuckler builds and found the zoda dwarf build to be the best - especially for survivability. Although that build may change a little after U23.

    When U23 hits there will be no shortage of strong melee builds on the forums. He can try one of those if he doesn't like swashbuckler, but as a newer player to EE he should put a special emphasis on self-healing and builds that don't require significant past lifes and gear farming.

    One other thing about Lamannia. He can try out several different builds on EE with no real risk since you can just use another timer/heart and immediately TR again. He is really missing a great opportunity to try different builds if he doesn't sign on this weekend.
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  8. #8
    The Hatchery Paleus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djinnishah View Post
    He cannot do damage. He drops quick. Fighters are "nerfed".
    According to him there is nothing he can do, that he
    hasn't done already.

    He states he has a high AC, and he thinks his weapons are fine. The
    primary thing we hear is fighters are nerfed and that is the excuse
    we get for everything...

    Thus... I guess my primary question to fighters should be... do you
    all feel nerfed? Heavy and light?
    It's honestly hard to give advice on what someone could be doing to come to this impression without actually observing playstyle, build, and gear. Take for instance his statement about having high AC. Well, without a number there is no way of knowing if it is truly high, but even without knowing the number it would be fairly important to note that there is more to defenses than just AC (e.g. PRR, Incorporeal, Displacement, Dodge, Saves, self-healing). Additionally, the Cetus build is technically a fighter build, but so is a pure 20 dwarf fighter that has inherently less built in defenses than the former.

    So, I think the important question isn't whether one feels fighters are nerfed, but rather exactly what do you mean by fighter? Same thing would apply to your reference to a "healer," a Warforged Favored Soul is most likely going to play differently from a Sun Elf Cleric even though both are often referred to as "healers." If someone tried to play them exactly the same they might feel one was nerfed compared to the other rather than acknowledging that it was their choices of combining a type of playstyle with a particular build that was causing the issue. I would second the suggestion of having your friend look at a swashbuckler (combo with a warchanter) if they want to play like a fighter that doesn't take the center of the fight and even if it does has a lot of built in defense (self-cast displacement, easy access to healing, high attainable dodge).
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  9. #9
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    sounds like he just needs to swat up on how the other fighters are building and gearing themselves.

    for EE at the higher levels (lvl20 quests should be doable on EE), yes melee can be regarded as suicide. hence all the massive changes planned for next update. for EH it probably means he's just not putting things together correctly.

    it sounds like he's building an off-tank DPS whilst wishing for the defences of a full tank. i also expect he doesn't have the DPS fully nailed down as my barbarian doesn't feel that squishy due to kill speed. my barb is no monster either hitting at about 100dmg on a cleave compared to top end blitzers doing 400+ (note i don't have blitz yet). my barb has modest gear and with silver pots can brute force through a EH fight then take the hireling back to a res shrine. so make sure he has silver flame pots for emergency heals and the stats to use them (11 min in all stats)

    standard melee feats are:

    power attack (precision for crit immune mobs)
    cleave
    great cleave
    3 * combat style (eg TWF or THF)
    improve critical
    overwhelming crit (epic, needs greater cleave and 23 raw str today, none of that in U23)

    he should be working towards better STR and CON gear. he should have +6 from heroic levels. +7 to +10 can be had in epic levels. he can also get +2 insight and +1 exceptional. low hanging fruit is the purple dragon stuff in eveninstar. that will give +7 and +2 insight to both STR and CON with the all important 30% healing amp (so get the gloves first!). doublestrike can be found on a lot of gear including a static reward from the wheloon chain. alacrity can be sourced from some gear, the haste spell or the blinding speed epic feat

    he should have at least 100% fort, though note rogue like mobs can bypass some fort so more is better. he should have some misc bonuses to HP on top of the CON bonuses. incorporeal and concealment are also very important. they can be had from gear but concealment can also come from a friendly blur buff.

    he should be working towards blitz in legendary dreadnought and should be spamming cleaves, momentum swing and lay waste along with any other abilities he has. aim is to get them all on cooldown! when he gets to blitz, and if he can get it up and running (will be easier next update) he will find his DPS problems vanish. he should be using power surge for most fight as i believe he can get about 10 action boosts per day and 10 mins of boost time per shrine is quite manageable (especially when you add in run time between fights and some trivial fights where you can skip boosting). same with haste and damage boosts, he will have enough of those to use in many fights. haste is far better, so pick that as number 1 dps option. damage is nice when added from another source, say the human tree as it can stack with fighter haste. a surge + fighter haste + human damage will add a lot to his dps for boss fights, though he should be burning them the whole quest long, aim is to run out just before you shrine.

    he should at a very minimum have a +2 STR tome from 1750 favour reward. at epic levels i'd expect a +2 on STR and CON, with views to get +3 and +4 tomes on those.

    you can add more to this, but that lot will get him started on the right path. it's enough for my barbarian to be happy in EN and EH, though a source of healing will help greatly. if you tend to run with a healer then it's not an issue. if it's all BYOH then he will probably want to LR into something that can self heal better than chugging silver flame pots (which is why i'm not focused on my barb at the moment).

    there are some top end builds out there (warning, pay close attention to tomes needed to unlock feats) which can solo EE quests with melee. that does not mean they can face roll such quests, you'll often see them moving about a lot and being very quick with the healing. but it does prove with enough effort melee is perfectly possible in EE. following such builds can be a great way to get started, just be aware that until you have all the items and past lives they have your version will not be as powerful. generally though it will be quite competent.
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  10. #10
    Community Member visibleman's Avatar
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    He might want to try a Pally.

    With a shield (and relevant feats) a Pally can easily get PRR 200+, after U23 that will also be MRR of 200+. Thats a ~50% reduction in ALL damage (pretty much). They have excellent saves and self healing.

    Currently, this build would seriously kill your DPS - though you can still finish EH solo, it just takes time to grind the enemies HP down. After the Melee Power update, Pally's will be much more competitive.



    The problem with Fighters is very limited self healing options and pishpoor saves. And Dex capped Dodge. That is not going to change. Thats why som many builds feature a 2 level Pally or Monk splash.
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    Community Member nivarch's Avatar
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    While your friend is not completely wrong (melee in general are not at their best), it is possible, and not actually very hard, for a fighter to be efficient in EH.
    Being efficient in EE takes more work, and a pure fighter will probably never get there.

    Your friend seems to act like a lot of melee who are frustrated, keep complaining, say that bards and casters are OP, etc... But never try to fix their build.
    Maybe I am wrong and he really tried, but I doubt it.

    Anyway his first goal should be to increase his survivability:
    - Make sure his fort is around 150%
    - get as much PRR as possible. This is the most reliable survivability stat, and should be easy to stack it quite high. The level 19 SHeltering ring as a reward for what goes up is a VERY nice item for 99.99% of the builds when ETRing.
    - make sure he has a Blurry item for 20% concealment
    - make sure he has a Ghostly item for 10% incorporeality
    - Try to get his dodge as high as his armor allows (the 6% bracer of the wind is nice for that)
    - If he can gets his AC in the 90 it will also add another a major layer of survivability for EH.
    - He should also get his HP as high as possible. For a fighter reaching 500-600 in the early twenties should be possible.
    - He should try to get his reflex as high as possible to reduce spell damage.

    With all that he should take almost no melee damage in EH. Spell damage is another story, but is not terribly dangerous on EH.
    He should also twist Cocoon. This is a tier 1 wonder that will handle his self healing need (especially in EE).

    As soon as you want to step into EE, the game changes drastically... And everyone becomes squishy on EE.
    This can be worked out but I don't think your friend is ready for that, and he should at least wait for the next update to really get into EE. Lower level EE should still be doable but he will die a lot.
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  12. #12
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    Is it the fighter class he's so keen on, or the straight-up melee & heavy armour style that he's so fond of?

    if it's the class, U23 should make a big help, and a change of race to bladeforged for the reconstruct SLA could be useful too, or maybe dragonmarked elf if he's worried about losing some particularly nice armour - it won't have quite the amount of punch of the dwarf or horc, but being able to throw a decent length displacement on yourself (especially in addition to the forthcoming changes) will be a huge defensive boost & they can also get the feywild tap ability to provide a useful SP battery for powering destiny-based healing & stuff.

    If it's the "hit stuff, don't worry about anything complicated" playstyle, then there's considerably more wiggle-room..paladin would be the obvious choice, but it's also pretty common to see deepsplashed divines & while most people will naturally appreciate them providing party support, they generally aren't too concerned if it's simply a melee that can throw a few buffs on themselves & self-heal - i have a couple, my favourite being greatsword-wielding bladeforged 12fvs/6fighter/2pally, i generally play it like a battle-crazed barbarian who can actually survive without a dedicated support - though personally, i tend to do the party support thing too when/if i'm paying attention.
    I don't mean to come across as unsympathetic - but I am, so I do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by djinnishah View Post
    We've been playing DDO since it started and got a friend to play a few years ago.
    This person prefers fighter builds over other playing styles. We have played with
    an abundance of other fighters that take aggro and do fine with melee, but this
    person swears that fighters have been completely nerfed.

    His argument is that one cannot melee in EH or EE and survive. He also complains
    at low levels on leet at times. He completely refuses to run EE and complained over
    EH till he got a TR'd fighter. Still, he is often the first to die... Even with a TR he
    refuses to run EE and despite being on his 3rd fighter TR... says he will not run
    EE till fighters are unnerfed. Actually... he is currently not playing because of
    his unwavering opinion.

    Tell me guys... are fighters truly nerfed? Are all melee toons now irrelevant in the
    game other then monks and monk mix builds? Is this an exaggeration?

    These are not my words, but the words of someone who says he has done everything
    he can to "fix his fighter" and cannot.
    What is his AC? His reflex, dodge, PRR? Is he an S&B, THF or TWF? DOes he have proper gear with the best augments he can get?
    I have 2 fighters. One is a Stalwart S&B, and the other is a Kensei Dwarf spec'd for dwarven axed TWF, but seems to be more effective with a great axe.
    I have LR'd them several times to get them dialed in and also exchanged feats a few times to get rid of stuff I had absolutely no need for.
    Give us more specifics if you can, and we will be able to help you help him better.

  14. #14
    neck deep member Powskier's Avatar
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    if you stand in front of mobs and dont move,the best characters can get nuked,unfortunately stand and swing isnt a tactic.even playing safe a melee can easily be overwhelmed in elite epics,or EH .I can hang w a lvl22 warchanter in EE,but a 28 LDread(w 2x hps and 3-4 x damage) without evasion is quickly knocked out.Displacement and evasion combo is sweet but shouldnt be so necessary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleus View Post
    So, I think the important question isn't whether one feels fighters are nerfed, but rather exactly what do you mean by fighter?
    Ya, this isn't the important question at all, because it WAS NOT FIGHTERS that were nerfed. A fighter can be a deadly ranged combatant, and I could introduce you to about 20 characters with which I'm familiar (most not currently playing, of course) that would make you keenly aware of how "un-nerfed" ranged combat is on a fighter.

    What was nerfed was melee combat, and I don't care how uber you think you are, if you enter into EE melee combat you are going to need some amount of healing - while others may not need even a wand whip. The question isn't whether you want to spend your time kiting or using healing-resources, it was what maximized your damage in the meantime.

    So yes, you can most definitely play a fighter in EE content. You'll just spend a lot more time doing it if you melee.
    Last edited by Raithe; 08-26-2014 at 09:46 AM.

  16. #16
    neck deep member Powskier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Ya, this isn't the important question at all, because it WAS NOT FIGHTERS that were nerfed. A fighter can be a deadly ranged combatant, and I could introduce you to about 20 characters with which I'm familiar (most not currently playing, of course) that would make you keenly aware of how "un-nerfed" ranged combat is on a fighter.

    What was nerfed was melee combat, and I don't care how uber you think you are, if you enter into EE melee combat you are going to need some amount of healing - while others may not need even a wand whip. The question isn't whether you want to spend your time kiting or using healing-resources, it was what maximized your damage in the meantime.

    So yes, you can most definitely play a fighter in EE content. You'll just spend a lot more time doing it if you melee.
    a ranged fighter is an archer....ranger is a woodsman mistaken for a bowgeek
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by djinnishah View Post
    Thank you Dandrock. I will advise him of this, in hopes
    he will find a solution to his issues.

    As far as his complaints... the list is relatively short.
    He cannot do damage. He drops quick. Fighters are "nerfed".
    According to him there is nothing he can do, that he
    hasn't done already. Husband and I disagree...

    For a better visual.

    Imagine being a rogue, sorc, ranger or healer, and running with
    a fighter... who waits for you to take aggro, often hiding in the back.
    No joke. Running past us, leading aggro to healers and casters.

    3 time TR Dwarf fighter w/a Ranger splash for Duel wield
    dwarf axes. I suggested the Ranger splash for that purpose in
    hopes it would cease his complaints. It did not...

    2 time TR Horc Fighter, who was a Barbarian part of his first life.
    Heavy armor and Great Weapons, primarily Greataxe.

    He states he has a high AC, and he thinks his weapons are fine. The
    primary thing we hear is fighters are nerfed and that is the excuse
    we get for everything...

    Thus... I guess my primary question to fighters should be... do you
    all feel nerfed? Heavy and light?

    If he is dying in EH, it is because he is improperly geared or doing stuff WAY over his capabilities.

    Second, you don’t need Ranger to dual-wield as a fighter, all you need is to run up the TWF (Two Weapon Fighting) line (TWF, ITWF, GTWF). Add feats to get better criticals, go Kensai, and so on. In that regard, EH should be a cakewalk for a second-life fighter with average gear. EE is a different animal.

    Plus, from a conventional perspective, if you are a TWF the last thing you’d want to be is a magnet for aggro. Mainly because your best way to things like AC and PRR is to carry a shield (again, talking in conventional terms), so you are going to be a single-weapon fighter.

    If you are going to be a TWF AND want to take aggro, then you need to boost things like:
    1) Criticals,
    2) Double-strike,
    3) Dodge.
    Add to this getting stuff like Displacement clickies, armor with a blue augment slot for a PRR augment, getting a Blur clickie, getting some DR (Stoneskin clickie for DR can be gotten from a Greensteel weapon), and so on.

    Take Cleave and Great Cleave – these are part of your DPS output. Likewise, weapon procs like Vorpal, Banishing, Paralyzing, Disruption…all of those contribute to a TWF toon.

    The problem may be that your buddy is doing pathetic damage to mobs, or that he is doing decent damage, but is getting mauled in the process. Or it could be a little of both. Without some specifics, it’s hard to tell where the problem lies.

    And I am not talking about splashing classes for optimal DPS. I’m talking about your average fighter.

    Likewise, if you are in a static group, YOU can do something to help him work better:
    1) Keep him healed,
    2) Cast Blur, Stoneskin, Greater Heroism, Barkskin, Zeal, Haste, and maybe Rage on him,
    3) Cast True Seeing on him to land hits on mobs that are displaced,
    4) Use Crowd Control spells (Mass Hold Monster for example) so that he can do damage without taking damage.
    As a final note: TWF is a different animal than swinging a Great Axe. It is more DEX-focused, plays more into finesse (although you don’t have to go finesse to be good at it), and plays REAL WELL with weapons that proc stuff like Vorpal and Paralyzing mainly because the number of hits you get per second. Add in double-strike, and between normal damage and procs stuff will be dying left and right.

  18. #18
    Community Member hp1055cm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djinnishah View Post
    His argument is that one cannot melee in EH or EE and survive. He also complains
    at low levels on leet at times. He completely refuses to run EE and complained over
    EH till he got a TR'd fighter. Still, he is often the first to die... Even with a TR he
    refuses to run EE and despite being on his 3rd fighter TR... says he will not run
    EE till fighters are unnerfed. Actually... he is currently not playing because of
    his unwavering opinion.

    Tell me guys... are fighters truly nerfed? Are all melee toons now irrelevant in the
    game other then monks and monk mix builds? Is this an exaggeration?
    The game mechanics of EE are poorly designed. It is difficult to go toe to toe with just 1 enemy in EE, and usually a losing battle if you take on 2 or more at a time. What is the point of advancing 20+ levels and improving your Melee abilities just so you can struggle to fight 1 Goblin at a time?
    If anything, EE is not fun for a melee so I also avoid EE and frankly I don't miss it; EH is fine for me.

    It's as if the monsters IN EE all got buffed with massive steroids giving them 10X HP, even the mobs, and melee toons get a button to click every 60 seconds that might do a few hundred damage. Gee thanks. Outside of a few Destiny builds you just can't produce enough DPS without help from others.
    Just lazy, stupid design really. The best strategy is to be able to self heal with scrolls and twists while you whittle them down. That or run with a few casters. Why they haven't scaled melee damage output better is beyond me. It should be at least double what it is at level 25-28.

    EH is manageable, after you TR a few times and get good gear. I splash all my melees with evasion and dodge admittedly which seems to be the best choice for Epics. Evasion is required in EE and EH - just is and maybe that is a bad thing - even lets you ignore most traps which is really silly when you think about it. It's great when you have it, and I swear by it, but it doesn't really allow for good quest design and punishes some traditional melee builds.

    *Wouldn't hurt to add more useful weapons to the game either, and fix random loot which is awful.
    Last edited by hp1055cm; 08-26-2014 at 11:11 AM.

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    Default Bah! I run EE all the time with my 1st life fighter

    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    The game mechanics of EE are poorly designed. It is difficult to go toe to toe with just 1 enemy in EE, and usually a losing battle if you take on 2 or more at a time. What is the point of advancing 20+ levels and improving your Melee abilities just so you can struggle to fight 1 Goblin at a time?
    If anything, EE is not fun for a melee so I also avoid EE and frankly I don't miss it; EH is fine for me.

    It's as if the monsters IN EE all got buffed with massive steroids giving them 10X HP, even the mobs, and melee toons get a button to click every 60 seconds that might do a few hundred damage. Gee thanks. Outside of a few Destiny builds you just can't produce enough DPS without help from others.
    Just lazy, stupid design really. The best strategy is to be able to self heal with scrolls and twists while you whittle them down. That or run with a few casters. Why they haven't scaled melee damage output better is beyond me. It should be at least double what it is at level 25-28.

    EH is manageable, after you TR a few times and get good gear. I splash all my melees with evasion and dodge admittedly which seems to be the best choice for Epics. Evasion is required in EE and EH - just is and maybe that is a bad thing - even lets you ignore most traps which is really silly when you think about it. It's great when you have it, and I swear by it, but it doesn't really allow for good quest design and punishes some traditional melee builds.

    *Wouldn't hurt to add more useful weapons to the game either, and fix random loot which is awful.
    And yes, there are multiple deaths, lol. If EE was able to be run flawlessly, then it wouldn't be all that epic IMHO.
    We ran What Goes Up on EE last night, only 5 of us and we finished it. It was ugly, but we got the W. And I wasn't the only one dying either. The completionists with all the uber gear were dying too.

  20. #20
    Community Member tfc_generalKMK's Avatar
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    Jun 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    The game mechanics of EE are poorly designed. It is difficult to go toe to toe with just 1 enemy in EE, and usually a losing battle if you take on 2 or more at a time. What is the point of advancing 20+ levels and improving your Melee abilities just so you can struggle to fight 1 Goblin at a time?
    If anything, EE is not fun for a melee so I also avoid EE and frankly I don't miss it; EH is fine for me.

    It's as if the monsters IN EE all got buffed with massive steroids giving them 10X HP, even the mobs, and melee toons get a button to click every 60 seconds that might do a few hundred damage. Gee thanks. Outside of a few Destiny builds you just can't produce enough DPS without help from others.
    Just lazy, stupid design really. The best strategy is to be able to self heal with scrolls and twists while you whittle them down. That or run with a few casters. Why they haven't scaled melee damage output better is beyond me. It should be at least double what it is at level 25-28.
    I have no experience with these high levels but from my limited understanding this is what update 23 and melee power is supposed to do.
    Lvl 8 Pally
    Lvl 8 Rogue

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