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  1. #281
    Community Member Beethoven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    formerly Austria, now US


    Quote Originally Posted by Timap View Post
    You must be my lucky star, because shortly after I replied to your post, I pulled my very first Jibbers Blade in an EE PUG. It was such a rush And in the same run, someone else pulled a Drowned Priest Torch, and passed it to another party member cause he had one already. Random acts of kindness. This is what BtA loot promotes.
    What makes you think acts of kindness like these would happen less with BTC or even non-tiered loot? The fact you think it news-worthy actually shows how bad things have become while I still recall days where similar acts of kindness were a standard not an exception.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timap View Post
    There's a group of players who would like to farm top-end loot for sale, and there is a group of players who would like to buy said loot.
    I don't doubt there are people who like to sell for profit. I do doubt, however, there are many who like to pay. They pay because they feel it is the only or less frustrating option, but that does not equate to them being happy about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timap View Post
    Do you think allowing players to satisfy their every in-game desire with cash is a good way to go for the game?
    Tiered loot allows players to satisfy their in-game desires with cash just fine though - the sole difference between Turbine selling the highest tier of loot in the store and a player on the ASAH is to whom the majority of the proceeds go and - in some cases - Turbine not being quite as demeaning or outright insulting towards their (potential) customers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timap View Post
    AS prices for loot have plunged dramatically because so much AS is being sucked out of the economy by Turbine for the new guild amenities/airships, and because of the duping issues. Loot farmers who previously commanded >1000AS for their loot now feel lucky if they net several hundred AS for their loot.
    Markets generally rely on supply and demand. AS prices dropped because duping as created a near indefinite supply of Thunderholme raid ingredients. Most of the latest loot is no longer tiered, players generally feeling like they can reasonably farm it themselves reduced the demand. You have more supply and less demand value (prices) are going to drop.

    The problem is most of the arguments for tiered loot are based around the idea that it somehow benefits "the players". This kind of uniformity does not exist among players and in this specific case we are actually talking about a mechanic that benefits one subset of players only while the rest remains either indifferent or outright dissatisfied by it. Tiered loot is not about beating the highest challenge of the game as much as farming (best exclusively) a single (and hardest) difficulty.

    * Tiered loot does neither increase enjoyment or longevity of the game for casual players who lack either in capability or inclination to effectively farm EE. They either ignore the higher tiers of loot (in which case tiered loot does nothing) or made peace with simply buying it (in which case tiered loot actually decreases the longevity of content since they have no loot incentive to run it on /any/ difficulty).

    * Tiered loot does not necessarily increase enjoyment and does not increase longevity of content for the intermediate gamer (defined as all those who run content on a variety of difficulties). It actually adds a layer of (potential) frustration when after six elite runs a lesser version of the item they are looking for drops on the one hard run. They too are likely to simply go with what they get or buy what they don't pull. So, here tiered potentially adds frustration without having much of an impact on anything else.

    * Tiered loot does not increase the longevity of content for end-gamers (defined as players mostly or exclusively concerned with owning the latest/best loot). It really doesn't take a (real) end-gamer that much longer to grind elite and once they have the loot there is as little point in tiered loot as any other.

    * Tiered loot does increase the enjoyment and longevity of content for gamers who (exclusively or also) grind in-game items to sell for profit. Now, traditionally a different terms was used to describe players who grind gear solely for the purpose of selling them for profits and even taking into account it's not mutually exclusive it'd be easy to argue that when a player turns from acquiring gear to have the most effective end-game toon to grinding in-game items for real world profts they switch in category.

    So, if I'd be to summarize:

    * increases enjoyment and longevity of content for those who are willing to grind elite in-game items for profit.

    * limits enjoyment and longevity for all casual players who want the best loot and buy it for AS and consequently have no loot incentive to run content on /any/ difficulty.

    * removes some loot incentive from intermediate players (likely the largest part of the population) for similar reasons.

    * promotes segregation of the playerbase. Players able and willing to run elites have no real incentive to ever join a group running a lower difficulty. Players running elites for profit have no incentive to burden with players from other groups as it cut into their profits by slowing them down and potentially be subjected to arguments about sharing or trading instead of outright selling. Players who dislike elite who even less incentive to try as they can anyway just buy it outright.

    * fosters a greed vs need based mentality. Sure, your loot is your loot and you should be free to do with it as you please. However, that does not change that making items that can easily be sold for a nice amount creates and fosters a more selfish environment.

    * whether or not you agree with the definition, the system still can easily be construed as Turbine creating a mechanic that both supports and encourages loot farmers.
    Last edited by Beethoven; 09-04-2014 at 11:01 AM.
    Characters on Sarlona: Ungnad (Morninglord, Wizard 17 / Favored Soul 2 / Fighter 1) -- Baerktghar (Dwarf, Paladin 18 / Fighter 2) -- Simulacruhm (Bladeforged, Artificer 16 / Paladin 3 / Wizard 1)

    No matter what side of the argument you are on, you always find people on your side that you wish were on the other.
    -- Jascha Heifetz

  2. #282
    2015 DDO Players Council
    Braegan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006


    Quote Originally Posted by psteen1 View Post
    Is it just me or are people forgetting how awful it was to run a quest 60+ times and still not find that shard? How that frustration would drive players away from the game?

    There are a lot of rose colored glasses on here, when it comes to the scroll/seal/shard system.
    There were some parts of that system that felt grindy, esp when it came to the sands items because there were so many of them. But the healthy end game that was pre-motu was largely in part because of a system that kept folks playing the content. Much opposed to what we have now where you don't even need to own the pack or run a single quest and walk around town with top tier gear.

  3. #283
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010


    Last edited by Vasax; 03-26-2015 at 11:03 AM.
    Vasax The Epic, Celebrity of Ghallanda @ THE PODCAST!, THE!
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  4. #284
    Community Manager
    Cordovan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Boston Area, MA


    Quote Originally Posted by Vasax View Post
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