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Thread: Fixing Streak.

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Bingo.

    But I already told you that, your ideas would not change anything at all.
    I disagree. I know I would have no problem running things without BB if there were no streak to break or other cost associated with doing so. Even if that cost was completely psychological.

    But that could just be me.

  2. #182
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindCakes View Post
    Still too complicated?
    You are mistaking complicated for annoying, stop with the Hyperbola questions, whatever you are trying to say.. just get it out and say it, and be done with it.

  3. #183
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I disagree. I know I would have no problem running things without BB if there were no streak to break or other cost associated with doing so. Even if that cost was completely psychological.

    But that could just be me.
    It would be limited to the people who think exactly like you, which, might be just you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    You are mistaking complicated for annoying, stop with the Hyperbola questions, whatever you are trying to say.. just get it out and say it, and be done with it.
    Well, a couple pages earlier I asked you a simple question: "why are you comparing some player in a game with your dream XP system where everyone gets +300% bonus and he chooses to break his streak, vs. some guy in the current game who chooses to break his streak?"
    I provided a helpful example to explain why those are not the two numbers to compare, and instead of attempting to counter it with reasonable argument you proceeded to try proving you are incapable of solving a 2nd grade math problem "Jack had 40 candies, he ate some, now he has 10 candies, how many did he eat? Dunno, he could have lost a couple, traded a couple for chocolates, or even shared with his friends? That's what real friends do, your Jack is an awful strawman!".

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    It would be limited to the people who think exactly like you, which, might be just you.
    I really couldn't say as I don't know what proportion of the player base has that level of obsession over xp efficiency.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    It would be limited to the people who think exactly like you, which, might be just you.
    Well, to be frank, there are probably less people that think like you .

    The root of the problem with the streak is this: running on other difficulties than elite penalizes you in upcoming quests. That exactly is what needs to be taken away; there should be no future consequences for running a particular quest on a particular difficulty. There are several ways to solve this problem, but yours is not one of them.

    I also find that the streak bonus makes little sense. There is no good reason why the experience gained in one quest depends on the difficulty level of previous quests. If you play a quest you should simply get the experience for that quest.
    Last edited by Forzah; 09-01-2014 at 12:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  7. #187
    Community Member Tscheuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindCakes View Post
    Well, a couple pages earlier I asked you a simple question: "why are you comparing some player in a game with your dream XP system where everyone gets +300% bonus and he chooses to break his streak, vs. some guy in the current game who chooses to break his streak?"
    I provided a helpful example to explain why those are not the two numbers to compare, and instead of attempting to counter it with reasonable argument you proceeded to try proving you are incapable of solving a 2nd grade math problem "Jack had 40 candies, he ate some, now he has 10 candies, how many did he eat? Dunno, he could have lost a couple, traded a couple for chocolates, or even shared with his friends? That's what real friends do, your Jack is an awful strawman!".
    Will you please quit picking on him? This is getting old, and you are looking like a snobbish bully. Please re-read your own posts and notice how the tone is more taunting than discussing.
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  8. #188
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindCakes View Post
    Well, a couple pages earlier I asked you a simple question: "why are you comparing some player in a game with your dream XP system where everyone gets +300% bonus and he chooses to break his streak, vs. some guy in the current game who chooses to break his streak?"
    Because under my plan it is not that hard for any player to get a +300% Bonus. I though that was very easily explained. In fact, only having a +300% bonus would put you on the low end of being a power gamer.

    Now, not to feed this too much further, but, anyone who would be as obsessive over their streak as you are trying to make them out to be, would have to be on the far end of the OCD Power Gamer, so to say such a player would only have a +300% streak bonus is putting them at much lower then where they would be in a short time.

    So either you can realize that the only people who would fret over a such a minimal loss as my system puts in, would be the very people who would look down at only a 300% bonus, where in reality they would be around 500%+ range. Because, they would take it seriously.

    On the same hand, the people as you call "Average Players" or average "Bob" who had not came anywhere near a 300% bonus, would by all means just realize that getting wrapped up in streak was not their thing, and my systems penalty is laughable to them.

    Now, on several occasions I tried to explain to you that motive and play style play the biggest role in this, It's pertty easy to understand, the people that would be as worried you make it out to seem, would be the same people with very high streaks already, or would have the means to quickly build up very high streaks, as they are serious power gamers. To even entertain that they would have a lower percent to their streak given their skills and talents at this game would do such a player an injustice, and present them is a falsifying light.

    Since you have on all occasions dismissed this, that means you are making no effort to have a discussion when I have tried to address your points.

    Now you can either realize that, or you can't.

  9. #189
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    Well let's turn that on it's head... how does your solution possibly meet that same standard.
    I would like to believe that you are a smart person, that you are capable or reason, logical thinking, and reading, I approached our first exchange with that belief, and I'll continue to do so, until you prove me wrong, let's not make that even happen too fast, shall we.

    So to start, I want take this moment to explain to you, What makes an Idea bad.

    Some people are under some illusion that they are just "all that" that an idea becomes good or bad based solely upon if they like it or not. Well, anyone with an iota of reasoning skill knows there is no truth to this, in fact emotional reaction to an idea has no impact on if it is good or bad, regardless how self important someone might feel or how absolute they feel their opinion is. So simply not liking an idea does not make it a bad idea, it simply means you do not like it.

    Now I want to explain that to you, because while I do not have any emotional investment in your idea, that does not mean I can't realize that it is a bad idea, it just means that my reasons for thinking it is a bad idea have nothing to do with my personal 'feels' towards about it.

    So, given how emotionally charged our gaming culture is, I would wager you might now be asking, What make does make an Idea bad, if not the fact that people like it or hate it?

    The answer to this, is, "Does it accomplish its goal"

    Let's look at your idea. Does it accomplish the goals you set out for it to accomplish?

    Well, in short, no, it does not.

    In fact, your idea to Front load it goes against the very problem you are trying to solve, which as you put out, "People feeling pressured to run Elite when they can't handle it" because, if you front load it, now anyone who joins a group or leads a group will want to try for the hardest difficulty because the full reward for completion is hanging right there for them, with no build up.

    At least with Streak, if the leader did not have a streak going, they would not feel as pressured to do elite, because the less reward for throwing themselves at the quest, so your idea, is a step in the opposite direction of what you are trying to accomplish, and worse than the streak mechanic that is currently in the game.

    Your Idea to Also Back Load it, into a Saga Reward, makes people always want to run elite for the end chain reward, so you have just put in the same idea as a streak, in the sense of "Do X quests on Elite and get a Major Boon to Exp" in a new form. And again, people become pressured to want to do Elite as much as they can. All you have done is change "Streak" to "Saga" and beyond that, you are now trying to get people who have no place in Elite now trying to get it done for the Saga Completion. So ultimately all you have accomplished so far is added pressure to get Elite done.

    As such, your goal to offer any incentive for people to Run Lower Difficulties has not been met, and in fact, you have done just the exact opposite, and put additional pressure to get an elite completion.

    I see you have also, with this current post to me, have opted to ditch your entire first idea, which means you really did not think it out before you posted it, which is the hallmark of where bad ideas are born. Just saying on that.

    But even if I was to listen to your latest "What about this plan", as you just switch gears in some vain hope to eliminate a major flaw in your idea, a flaw that if you had given proper time to think about it, you would have noticed, but, none the less, you jump around and propose a "First time on each difficult bonus".

    Ok let's look at that, your "revised idea" tells me that you have no idea what Streak and Bravery were designed to do and why they were put in to start with. You have no idea what problem it was designed to address or fix. While that lack of insight alone would make your idea shoddily concocted and thus dismissible because it was literally built in a void with no care or consideration of anything that was done before it or around it, but on top of that, your "new revision", as amazing as this idea might seem to you, is exactly how the game used to be. Just pause and realize where you are at now in your "idea progression" that, your "new" means to fix things is to regress back to a problem that streak and bravery were put in to fix in the first place.

    See, It is things like that, that make your idea bad, and nothing to do with if I like your idea or not.

    So, now to answer your counter: "Well Ungood, what makes your Idea Good?"

    Well first off, and most importantly, I don't have the same goals with my idea as you had with yours.

    Nor am I trying to accomplish "Your goals"

    Are you surprised? Well, Yes I understand that you had some goal in mind that you expected every idea to accomplish, and if it does not, you do not like it. But, then again, your goal is force people to play how you want them to play, regardless of how they may want to play this game. For future note, I never try to do that. I think that is a failure waiting to happen.

    So if your objection with any of my idea is that it does not accomplish that kind of task, and thank you for pointing that out, it means my idea is good, at least to me.

    None the less, moving on.

    Now realizing that we have different objectives with our ideas, is a good way to see how good or bad they are of their own merits, and as far as my objectives are concerned, well, my idea accomplishes the goals I set out to accomplish. Allow me to explain that to you.

    I get that you have some idealistic view to try and get everyone to hold hands and sing "We are the World" or some other such whatever, but I have no such illusions or goals with my ideas, in fact, getting people who have no place groping together, to end up in the same group, I view as detrimental to the overall health of the game. Nor do I think it is beneficial to the game to make people feel obligated or be given incentives to run difficulties above or below their skill level. So, our ideas have nothing in common as far as goals go. Which is good.

    My goals were designed around the idea of making the game enjoyable in an overall sense. A larger scale picture of a long term game across varying play styles. To accomplish this, I had set a few major goals.

    My First and Foremost Goal was to Decrease the Long Term Grind.

    This is the Major Problem I was looking to address, as the continual "I am doing the same quests over and over and over again" seems to be an annoyance to everyone from the casual to the hard core vet, the EXP leveling grind gets to them, and this decrease the fun they could be having in the game.

    The only two ways to fix this are to produce massive amounts of ever growing content to disperse out the feeling of the grind, or find a means to increase the exp per quest, preferably with incremental increases over time so that less content needs to be run repetitively for each life.

    Every idea I have heard so far is this stagnant, dead ended construct, and keeps the grind consistent across all lives forever and ever and ever and ever, which leaves players just looking at endless tedium, which I think is a downright horrible, and something I was driven to fix with this idea.

    Since I realized that expecting Turbine to pump out content like a Hostess factory puts out Twinkies is never going to happen, I looked to the streak mechanic to solve this problem.

    The ability to grow a Bonus fixes the problem perfectly, since it allows for less and less grind to TR as time goes on it makes the existing content worth more, so players eventually need run less of it to level up and thus an overall reduction in grind for the game, with a pretty simple fix all things said and done. Goal Accomplished!

    Also note: The slow build coupled with diminishing returns make it so that new players need to pay their dues at the start before reaping their rewards, thus protecting the investment that vets have made with their toons, giving too much too soon cheapens the work vets have done to get where they are. A lot of you don't seem to grasp that idea either, and this have not put any thought into keeping a vets work as something noteworthy, and while it was an auxiliary goal, it still gets Accomplished.

    Point of Note: No one else's idea address this, and a Bypass does not fix it (Just FYI)

    My Secondary Goal was to make it so that players would not feel obligated to run difficulties above or below their skill bracket, due to exp rewards.

    I mean this should be pretty simple to grasp as an idea, the Goal was to inspire people to run the difficulty that they are the most comfortable with and reward them in a commiserate manner for doing so. They should not feel obligated to run above or below their skill level, and at the end of their play session they should feel satisfaction and progress from playing the game at their skill level.

    This really should be the major goal of any idea and it's almost painful to see how many of you don't even address this. You are all so wrapped up in trying to get people play your way. I think it is as downright counterproductive to a healthy game environment to try and inspire (aka Force) someone to run a difficulty below them as it is to try and taunt people to run difficulties above their skill level.

    Thus, I approached with the intent that if they can run elite, then they should be inspired and rewarded for running elite. If they can run only run Normal, then they should be inspired and rewarded for running Normal.

    In that venture, my idea with Normal/Hard/Elite Streaks, allows players to a build a streak that is geared to their skill level at a pace that is good for them. A player can move up or down in difficulties at their discretion with almost no change in their overall progress. They can start a normal streak on their first life, move up to a hard streak on their second, and then an elite streak on their third, if they want, or could keep the hard streak for a few lives, if they like flavor builds or what have you, but will not take punitive losses if they opt to not build min/maxed builds, they can build the streak that is good for them, and still see a continual progress in their exp growth life to life with a reduction in grind no matter what they opt to do. The mechanic rewards them, right there, when they do the quest, and does so in a viable and fair manner, that they can take pride in and look forward to growing during their play session. Goal Accomplished

    Added Notes about play types and play styles.

    The New/Casual that on their best days is equipped to handle normal, can, with impunity, have a little fun with some friends, doing quests that were way out of their league, they can run elites for the whole day with their guild/friends and not be saddled with some obligation to try and keep an elite streak going due to some front loaded mechanic, equally so, they don't feel the need to go back and do elite later either due to some back loaded mechanic. Their Normal streak is capable of giving them a better benefit that fits their play style, as such they can happily continue it and not feel any pressure to do elite, unless they want to peruse favor rewards, or do loot runs. Thus when someone joins their group and wants to do elite they can say "Dude I have a beast of a Normal Streak, I don't need elite" and the other people who joined for normal can feel the same way, and they go in on normal feeling pretty good about their progress in the game. The guy that wanted to pressure the group to run elite can drop group if it bothers them that much, or they can opt to take what amounts to an insignificant hit to their elite streak.

    On the other end of the spectrum, you have The all star "friendly" vet, who can now hang with some old buddies, help a new guild mate, and do whatever, and not feel like they need to rebuild, they can move on with their life due to the diminishing returns nature of my plan which makes it so that after a while the gain and loss become totally insignificant. If they are a "friendly" vet, they often enough laugh off losing more than that to the puggers that always find ways to die in every quest they join. The fact that the streak always continues in my plan removes any pressure on "friendly" to keep their streak up, and this plays the largest role at the end of their heroic leveling cycle due to sparse quests where rebuilding a streak hurts the most. In my idea, there is no "hurt" point, losing what would eventually amount to 0.04% exp off the base, is so minuscule that there is a good chance they would not even see the number change on their next elite run.

    And for the power gamer, well I have given them the perfect excuse to tell people to die in a fire if they don't want to run with them.

    All My Goals Accomplished!

    You see, that is the differences you and I. When I See a problem, I look into it, I look at what has been done, why it has been done, what went wrong, then I talk with people, I get ideas from them, I see what irks them, I see what makes them happy, and then I set goals to accomplish things that would be good for the overall health of the game, I set goals that will reward everyone as much as I can, and then I accomplish my goals.


    While, in contrast to that, everything you have put out could be solved easier, faster, and with more profit to Turbine if they simply sold a Streak Bypass in the store.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    On the same hand, the people as you call "Average Players" or average "Bob" who had not came anywhere near a 300% bonus, would by all means just realize that getting wrapped up in streak was not their thing, and my systems penalty is laughable to them.
    Or realize that "succeeding" at this game isn't their thing and find some other game in which it is. IMO it's best to avoid mechanics that quantify overall performance and let the players define success on their own individual terms.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Or realize that "succeeding" at this game isn't their thing and find some other game in which it is. IMO it's best to avoid mechanics that quantify overall performance and let the players define success on their own individual terms.
    Which is again, what my idea does.

    Thanks for pointing that out.

    Really, you should have read that wall-of-text just above your post, before posting this.

  12. #192
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Which is again, what my idea does.

    Thanks for pointing that out.

    Really, you should have read that wall-of-text just above your post, before posting this.
    Problem with the idea being good or bad is the idea that Streak needs fixing to begin with.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    <snip>All My Goals Accomplished!
    Well that explains why we don't agree at all as I don't see any of your goals as being worthwhile, with some actually being detrimental to the game.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Which is again, what my idea does.

    Thanks for pointing that out.

    Really, you should have read that wall-of-text just above your post, before posting this.
    No, it doesn't it gives a forever running box score in the form of a progressive bonus to show who is playing the game more "right". The same thing the games current useless streak counter does.

    Frankly, with the games current xp ransack system there is probably enough incentive to not replay quests to be able to do away with any sort of bravery bonus.

  15. #195
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Well that explains why we don't agree at all as I don't see any of your goals as being worthwhile, with some actually being detrimental to the game.
    And which goal did you find "detrimental" to the game?

    Was it "Reducing the long term grind" or "Rewarding players in an appropriate manner for doing the difficulty best suited for their play style and skill level"
    Last edited by Ungood; 09-01-2014 at 02:10 PM.

  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    And which goal did you find "detrimental" to the game?

    Was it "Reducing the long term grind" or "Rewarding players in an appropriate manner for doing the difficulty best suited for their play style and skill level"
    Well giving some a excuse to tell others to "die in a fire" would probably top the list.

    Also, I don't understand how one could determine what an "appropriate" reward for various play styles is.

    Reducing possible long term grind is best accomplished by either simply reducing the grind needed to accomplish things (something they have already done in the case of past lives by lowering the xp requirement) or reducing the number of things to be ground for.

    I also find the idea of new players having to "pay their dues" more detrimental than any devaluing of accomplishment vets might feel. As it puts players coming to the game in the perpetual position of playing catchup. Here, I really think you let your personal feelings on the matter show.

  17. #197
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Well
    I'll ask this again... Since you did not answer the first time.

    Which of these goals do you believe is Determetal to the Health of the Game.

    • Reducing the long term grind
    • Rewarding players in an appropriate manner for doing the difficulty best suited for their play style and skill level


    On second thought.. don't bother..

    I also find the idea of new players having to "pay their dues" more detrimental than any devaluing of accomplishment vets might feel.
    After reading this, that you are in full support of shafting and devaluing the effort vets put into the game, it's clear we will never agree on what is a positive and beneficial for the game, as I think that shafting over the vets is downright destructive to the long term health of the game.

    At this point, trying to get you to like my idea is no longer a goal of mine, nor is explaining it to you, I'll just take your dislike for my idea as a complement from this point on, as we have vastly opposing views on what is good for the future of the game.

    Thank you for your time.

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    And which goal did you find "detrimental" to the game?

    Was it "Reducing the long term grind" or "Rewarding players in an appropriate manner for doing the difficulty best suited for their play style and skill level"
    I would say it's the part where your system segregates and fragments the playerbase significantly more than it already has been. Under your proposed system:

    • Soloists win the most, because their rate of progress is completely irrelevant to anyone else's rate of progress - except of course when they get together (in channels, on ships, or wherever else) and stroke those epeens by comparing Streak/Bonus size.

    • Static groups come at 2nd place on the win scale, because they can advance at the same rate provided they A) Start at the same count (by either creating new characters or breaking their current streaks to zero and starting their streaks from scratch) and B) Never play any quests without every member of the group present (if one member is unavailable, nobody can play their toon) - because to so would permanently skew their ability to continually level together.

    • Nobody else wins. Regardless of wether people are pugging, channeling, guilding or using their friends list to form leveling groups from one play session to the next; any group comprised of multiple different XP bonuses is doomed to break up as different people advance at (potentially vastly) different rates. Consider the following example:

    Group forms to run VoN 1-4 (Elite Ofc). 6 members, all on 3rd+ life characters with the following streak bonuses: 300%, 156%, 549%, 233%, 327%, and 21% (<- that last guy just started building his streak, because he agreed with your position and didn't feel it was worthwhile to start on his 1st or 2nd life). Even if they were all the very start of level 11, how long would they be able to quest together? How much less if they're at different leveling points? Heck, forget the whole chain idea - if they just run VoN3, one dudes getting a rank or two while half or so complete the level in a single quest (with XP to spare!).

    Your idea absolutely destroys the ability to form non-static groups for more than a few sequencial quests by ensuring most people advance at remarkably different paces - and that's how "everyone wins" (<- your words in the OP) in an MMO? That's your grand plan to improve the health of the game? /FAIL
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    After reading this, that you are in full support of shafting and devaluing the effort vets put into the game, it's clear we will never agree on what is a positive and beneficial for the game, as I think that shafting over the vets is downright destructive to the long term health of the game.

    At this point, trying to get you to like my idea is no longer a goal of mine, nor is explaining it to you, I'll just take your dislike for my idea as a complement from this point on, as we have vastly opposing views on what is good for the future of the game.

    Thank you for your time.
    I have pretty much figured that from the beginning but enjoy a good discussion for it's own sake. It's been pretty plane from the start that, while I see the game as something to do, you see it as something to get done.

  20. #200
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I have pretty much figured that from the beginning but enjoy a good discussion for it's own sake. It's been pretty plane from the start that, while I see the game as something to do, you see it as something to get done.
    I'll leave you to your incorrect assumptions, as I should have done a while back.

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