Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 34
  1. #1
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    87

    Default The Punisher Difficulty : a solution to the challenge problem in DDO

    There has been many recent threads about the lack of challenge in DDO. They are likely to evolve as follows:

    1) Players notice that the game is too easy. Even casual players are doing EE content.
    2) Nobody wants to play a game that is too easy. Devs agree and tweak EE to become harder.
    3) Players notice that EE takes a disproportionate amount of time compared to its rewards. They argue for better rewards/xp at EE, preferably exclusive loot at EE. And preferably unbound saleable loot, so that there is a reason to still run EE content even after you've obtained desired loot.
    4) It's only fair that more effort leads to better rewards. Devs agree and tweak EE loot to be slightly better. Only a different color augment slot or slightly improved bonuses, to limit power creep.
    5) The player base devotes its enormous collective intellect into min/maxing the newly available loot. Scaling over ten equipment slots, plus unanticipated synergism between loot, leads to substantial power creep. ASAH sales allow the casual players to obtain said loot.
    6) Go to step 1.

    The main problem with arguing for more challenging content is that it is only a prelude to arguing for better loot or more power, which in time leads to a lack of challenge again. To stop this vicious cycle, to break the mindset that more effort should always lead to more rewards, I propose a difficulty setting that is meant to challenge capped toons, and is explicitly meant not to lead to greater tangible rewards : the Punisher Difficulty.

    A) Only capped toons may enter this difficulty.
    B) You pay an entrance fee of 100k plat.
    C) This difficulty awards ZERO xp and guild renown.
    D) There are no chests or breakables. No loot is ever given out. Each run will always be a resource-consuming run.
    E) The first successful run gives you a white ribbon that you can display. Each time you successfully complete a DIFFERENT quest at this extreme difficulty setting, you accrue Punisher favor points which causes your ribbon to change color.

    This should short-circuit the cycle at step 1, and stop the power creep. And power creep is bad. I just TRed and went from level 1-12 with xp saga stones, and from levels 12-20 with trash equipment from the AH. I found heroic elite difficulty to be incredibly boring. Despite severe undergearing (I was still using lvl 12 gear at lvl 19) on several occasions, I've put up LFMs and completed most of a quest on elite before a newbie who joined even found the quest entrance. I'm now afraid to group with newbies, because I am so far ahead of them in power that there is no way the experience will be a good one from their perspective. Maybe they get a bit of free xp, but there is no way the quest was fun, or educational, because mobs are usually dead by the time they walk into.a room. A large Power spectrum is especially bad in a game with a declining population, because it's just not fun to group with people who are wildly outside your power group,
    Last edited by Timap; 08-24-2014 at 01:41 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member Nayus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    1,273

    Default

    "Even casuals are doing EE content"

    ...

    lol

    Your solution to the problem was even more exciting.

  3. #3
    Founder & Hero
    2016 DDO Players Council
    Uska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Behind you with a claw hammer
    Posts
    25,337

    Default

    I see no incentive to,play this or anybody ever doing so,if it happened


    Beware the Sleepeater

  4. #4
    The Hatchery Syllph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    1,992

    Default Modified Level-Up Tokens

    Many years ago they had level up tokens - you could only hit certain levels after you found this token. Truth be told, it was really annoying.

    That being said, perhaps they could modify this concept:

    In order to hit certain level limits, you need to have completed a specific level-dependent raid on Elite. For example after completing Elite Chronoscope you may level to 8; Tempest's Spine Elite nets you level past level 10; Hound level 16; etc. If anyone higher than this level enters the dungeon, it will produce a warning to all players currently in the party: "Someone over the maximum level has entered. Reward tokens disabled."

    (Note: I'm just making up the maximum levels, it's just an idea not a full suggestion. Tweak the levels for each raid however would be a challenge, but not impossible)

    This would encourage challenge, while giving a reason to do it. (Yes I know I said this was annoying then suggested something very, very similar

    Downside to this, obviously, would be you could be stuck at a certain level for a long while until you find a group.

    ------OR-------

    Add an XP penalty to death only on Elite difficulty. You -can- lose a level. The level-loss will function as a semi-permanent debuff to prevent people from possibly abusing the feat system / stats / skills.

  5. #5
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Staffs, England
    Posts
    16,492

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Syllph View Post
    Downside to this, obviously, would be ...90% of the Casual Population of DDO Quitting in Disgust!
    ftfy!

  6. #6
    The Hatchery Syllph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    1,992

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    ftfy!
    You say that like it's a bad thing

  7. #7
    Community Member Avenging_Angel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    487

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonulino View Post
    No matter what you post, there is always someone who responds with something like "Unless you are gimped, you should be able to do this with your eyes closed and one hand tied behind your back." It gets a little tiresome.

  8. #8
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,031

    Default

    Your fundamental flaw is assuming that people want challenge just for its own sake. They want challenge with the psychological payoff of achieving a reward for it. Super elite mode without any reward is hollow.

    The problem of power creep is simply one of balance. The difference between ee and eh loot doesn't need to be extreme to encourage play on ee...ee can still be challenging with full ee gear, thereby causing your cycle of power creep to decay to zero.

  9. #9

    Default

    I like the OP's idea. Nice thinking.
    Punisher level becomes the ultimate test
    Remember Veblen's concept of conspicuous consumption--you own wasteful, useless things like large front lawns, costly fashions, gigantic McMansions? It is about trophyism. This is a game in which trophyism is appropriate. No one needs to do it, but I like that some could strut this kind of thing.

    I was thinking of something similar, like a vow of poverty heroic run inwhich one gains some permanent ability point bonus for doing it.
    ROGUE Part QUATRE: Prove your Stealth Skills!

    Proud Knight of the Silver Legion, Cannith: Saekee (main; epic completionist), Naerfelka (farmer)

  10. #10
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    856

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Syllph View Post
    You say that like it's a bad thing
    It won't be, if you're planning to spend any money they're spending after they leave. If not, it's a bad thing. If they're eligible for the majority of raids, I'm not big on the raid scene, but I don't think any are F2P, that would mean they're spending money to keep the game alive.

  11. #11
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    6,820

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    I see no incentive to,play this or anybody ever doing so,if it happened
    And yet if they did do it, with in a month (if it even took that long) everybody would (on the forums claim to) have acquired all the ribbon colors

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Your fundamental flaw is assuming that people want challenge just for its own sake. They want challenge with the psychological payoff of achieving a reward for it. Super elite mode without any reward is hollow.
    Some of us actually do want to be challenged just for it's own sake, especially some of us who realize that all video game achievements and rewards are hollow
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  12. #12
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Staffs, England
    Posts
    16,492

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Your fundamental flaw is assuming that people want challenge just for its own sake. They want challenge with the psychological payoff of achieving a reward for it. Super elite mode without any reward is hollow.
    And then comes the problem of Power Creep!

    Those who can do the super elite mode get the gear and rewards to make it easier and easier so start asking for an even more uber elite mode just as the rest of us are catching up.


    Any "Challenge" mode needs to be strictly voluntary and with NO extra rewards other than say {Cosmetics or access to In-Game versions of XP/Renown/Slayer type Pots and Random Loot boosts}.


    The Elitists have succeeded in getting everyone and his mule running Elites - Now they want an even Eliter difficulty!

    Meanwhile: Casual and Normal may as well just disappear after about Lvl 3 or 4 as that's the point where most newbies have come to realize that if they actually want to run with anybody they're gonna have to suck it up and run Elite {hard at the very least!}!


    Even at End-Game we can't have an Uber Elite difficulty if that difficulty gives out Uber Elite Loot BECAUSE within a week, a month, a year, 5 years...At some point people will be asking for an even harder difficulty!


    So....To the Devs - If you're looking to build in a "Challenge" difficulty - Make it completely and utterly voluntary!
    Those who WANT the Challenge will then be able to run it and the rest of us will be able to laugh at those complaining that Elite is too easy but NOT running the Challenge difficulty!

    YOU SIMPLY CAN'T HAVE BOTH CHALLENGE AND UBER LOOT BECAUSE UBER LOOT TAKES THE CHALLENGE AWAY!

  13. #13
    Community Member Spekdah_NZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Auckland, New Zealand
    Posts
    264

    Default

    If people want a challenge just run EE naked, except for a weapon. Lets have a "naked runs" ladder on You Tube. Post your naked times! :-)

    It's almost like being stuck in a real beholder anti-magic field for a whole quest gear wise.

  14. #14
    Community Member Blackheartox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Left from Underdark
    Posts
    3,132

    Default

    I will never understand why some people refuse to admit that ddo is a to casual game, to easy, with no challenge.

    As a old time d&d player im used to settings where the dm makes my life hard, where i find every single adventure and mere talks in taverns to be extremely fun as its challenging.
    That is the core of d&d, hard and fun where you think about your next step and plan ahead of your adventure.
    That sore core has been tainted imo here.
    When players like me who played ddo alot and saw everything wish for some challenge, why do most forumities refuse to give us some love.
    Funny is how most people im playing in game agree with me that ddo is to easy /as casuals and as pros/, so what harm is there to add some challenge to this game?

    And keep in mind, something needs to be gained from that challenge.
    IF ddo had some actual debug/anticheat tools and tracking tools of completition to track fastest completition times fully legit, we wouldnt have this issue.
    We need a competetive mechanism in ddo, we need to be rewarded for that, we need something to keep the most hardcore players stay here playing ddo.

    IF anyone thinks running en daily quests for xp and etring, or doing the same old heroic quests is fun, il say it will bore you after that point where you want to test all that power you acumulated.
    But what then? When your character has all the past lifes it needs, and turbine releases END GAME CONTENT where you test your power, and you step in on ee and solo it first time you steped in without to much challenge, then i can clearly assume its a fail in game concept.

    Example necro4, people are alrdy soloing it on ee, so what point is there to necro?
    We need a challenge, and if turbine is a good company that follows the steps of all popular mmos, they will shift to hardcores and please those sort of players, as we are the ones giving most money to this company anyways.
    F2p weekend test players and buy one pack never come back cant compete to someone who bought all packs multiple character slots and is vip for xp bonus while buying ocasionally tomes/stones/ottos boxes.

    To live long, to survive on this harsh market, you dont want to casualize your game to much. As it stands now ddo really needs to do something since it has given us to much and really it is not as fun as it was pre motu.

    Best suggestion i could give is to make something like what wow did. That vanilla server where you play only basic wow withot all those hordes of expansion and addons adn whatnot.
    Make a server called nostalgia and roll it back before motu. Back then we had something for everyone, the casual the hardcore the weekend player, not like now where whole game is beyond casualization, i would say babyalization

  15. #15
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    856

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackheartox View Post
    I will never understand why some people refuse to admit that ddo is a to casual game, to easy, with no challenge.

    As a old time d&d player im used to settings where the dm makes my life hard, where i find every single adventure and mere talks in taverns to be extremely fun as its challenging.
    That is the core of d&d, hard and fun where you think about your next step and plan ahead of your adventure.
    That sore core has been tainted imo here.
    When players like me who played ddo alot and saw everything wish for some challenge, why do most forumities refuse to give us some love.
    Funny is how most people im playing in game agree with me that ddo is to easy /as casuals and as pros/, so what harm is there to add some challenge to this game?

    And keep in mind, something needs to be gained from that challenge.
    IF ddo had some actual debug/anticheat tools and tracking tools of completition to track fastest completition times fully legit, we wouldnt have this issue.
    We need a competetive mechanism in ddo, we need to be rewarded for that, we need something to keep the most hardcore players stay here playing ddo.

    IF anyone thinks running en daily quests for xp and etring, or doing the same old heroic quests is fun, il say it will bore you after that point where you want to test all that power you acumulated.
    But what then? When your character has all the past lifes it needs, and turbine releases END GAME CONTENT where you test your power, and you step in on ee and solo it first time you steped in without to much challenge, then i can clearly assume its a fail in game concept.

    Example necro4, people are alrdy soloing it on ee, so what point is there to necro?
    We need a challenge, and if turbine is a good company that follows the steps of all popular mmos, they will shift to hardcores and please those sort of players, as we are the ones giving most money to this company anyways.
    F2p weekend test players and buy one pack never come back cant compete to someone who bought all packs multiple character slots and is vip for xp bonus while buying ocasionally tomes/stones/ottos boxes.

    To live long, to survive on this harsh market, you dont want to casualize your game to much. As it stands now ddo really needs to do something since it has given us to much and really it is not as fun as it was pre motu.

    Best suggestion i could give is to make something like what wow did. That vanilla server where you play only basic wow withot all those hordes of expansion and addons adn whatnot.
    Make a server called nostalgia and roll it back before motu. Back then we had something for everyone, the casual the hardcore the weekend player, not like now where whole game is beyond casualization, i would say babyalization
    I have yet to play a PnP campaign where I had weapons and armor that would make the Gods cry. When the best weapon I saw in a year of monthly play might be +2, nothing else, just +2, everything could be challenging.

  16. #16
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    6,820

    Default "Nostalgia" server

    I would find it very amusing if that became the most (or even just a competitively vs the rest) populated server - but I'm genuinely concerned about what that would spell for DDO's future...
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  17. #17
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,723

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    YOU SIMPLY CAN'T HAVE BOTH CHALLENGE AND UBER LOOT BECAUSE UBER LOOT TAKES THE CHALLENGE AWAY!
    Stop thinking in term of uber loot. Think more like old epic (which is too exclusive imo) and say epic GH and High Road.

    While for some items the EE version were a bit stronger, it would never make that much of a difference. Even less so if they would... yeah... try to design the hardest content around the achievable DCs/Power.

    Those that don't care about the challenge and are actually looking for uber loot (in proportion to the challenge) in order to faceroll the game are actually NOT running EEs and they would even less so at end game. How's that? They have about the same gear while playing something 10 times easier.

    While the others are doing what they can to enjoy themselves which is : play the hardest difficulty offered. Until it gets boring... then here comes a break and then a departure.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 08-24-2014 at 08:29 PM.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

    ...And then there was silence

  18. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spekdah_NZ View Post
    If people want a challenge just run EE naked, except for a weapon. Lets have a "naked runs" ladder on You Tube. Post your naked times! :-)

    It's almost like being stuck in a real beholder anti-magic field for a whole quest gear wise.
    hah! nice idea--try setting it up and see responses!

    OP--what about calling it 'mythic' setting instead of 'punisher'? The term is appearing in the next update on some rare named items
    ROGUE Part QUATRE: Prove your Stealth Skills!

    Proud Knight of the Silver Legion, Cannith: Saekee (main; epic completionist), Naerfelka (farmer)

  19. #19
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    5,948

    Default

    I applaud your attempt, but it misses the history of epic in DDO.

    Back when Shade was king (not sure where the barbarian pusher went) and the idea of epic was first discussed it was to be a pride level only. No special loot or rewards... you can see how that went...
    Should a reaper see me? I think Death itself should have to make a spot check when I'm rolling up behind him. -- Krimsonrane

  20. #20
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Europe, and proud of it
    Posts
    3,168

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    (...)

    So....To the Devs - If you're looking to build in a "Challenge" difficulty - Make it completely and utterly voluntary!
    Those who WANT the Challenge will then be able to run it and the rest of us will be able to laugh at those complaining that Elite is too easy but NOT running the Challenge difficulty!

    YOU SIMPLY CAN'T HAVE BOTH CHALLENGE AND UBER LOOT BECAUSE UBER LOOT TAKES THE CHALLENGE AWAY!
    As the OP stated, you need a Trophy. Else the uber challenge will not be run and the ultra vets will still complain that Elite is too easy. Personally, I find the OP idea with the "ribbon" quite nice. I would go with the colors of the TR horns beside the name. Should be easy to do and should do the trick nicely.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload