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  1. #1
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Default My ideal definition of how DDO should be challenging me. (From HN -> EE)

    My difficulty design philosophy is as follows:
    Normal: Learning the game, roflstomping, just killing time.
    Challenge level: Minimal.
    Hard: Getting better at the game, looking for an interesting step up from Normal but nothing too lethal.
    Challenge level: Moderate - Failure is possible but rather unlikely.
    Elite: I think I'm an expert now, I want to see just how uber my toon is, hubris & mistakes are costly.
    Challenge level: Lethal - The game is trying to kill me and failure rate ranges from possible to probable.

    I fully realize little if any of what's to follow can actually be implemented, and whatever could be probably won't be due to resource investment etc. I'm ok with that, this is just more of a wish list than anything else. Enjoy

    Randomness. Take any given quest, and randomize the traps & mobs number, placement and type.

    • Traps: Normal would use fixed spawn points and Simple traps, the common stuff we already see. Hard would use some fixed + some *random spawn points and has limited (in Heroic) to moderate (in Epic) chance to spawn Complex traps, ie: Spinning Blades + Grease, Poison + Fire. Elite would use only *random spawn points and base spawn Complex traps, with limited (in Heroic) to moderate (in Epic) chance of Exotic Traps, ie: Net Mines + Grease + Fire, Sound Burst + Sleet Storm + Spinnng Blades.

    • Mobs: Normal would spawn Basic mobs at standard encounter points (pretty much what we have now). Hard would still use some standard and some *random encounter points but add limited (in Heroic) to moderate (in Epic) chance of spawning Advanced mobs (ie: Warriors with weapon effects like Limb Chopper or Paralyzing, Casters with highest level appropriate Summon Monster + Augment Summons). Elite would use only *random encounter points and base spawn Advanced mobs, with limited to moderate chance (pending quest level) to spawn Exotic mobs; Exotic mobs would have two varieties: Heroic and Epic.

    Heroic Exotic mob examples: Warriors have Prestiges - AA Rangers w/Many Shot + arrow effects, Barbarian Frenzied Berserkers w/THF feats + Vorpal/GS/TF Geat Axes, Radiant Servant Clerics to Aura/Burst/cast Heal + Turn Undead, Savant Sorcs & DC built Wizzys) with level appropriate gear effects.

    Epic Exotic mob Examples: Pally Defenders in Unielding Sentinal or Divine Crusader, Exalted Angle Clerics & Favored Souls, Draconic Sorcs, Shiradi Wizzys, Fury-Shotting Monkchers... Basically the Devs take our builds and apply them against us

    • Monsters or Mobs?
    In Normal content, again no real change from what we currently have. In Hard content, there would be a limited % chance of quest & level appropriate Monsters spawning where Mobs would and vice versa. ie: Wargs or Rust Monsters ~ melee oriented humanoids; something like Tharak Hounds or Black Widows ~ ranged humanoids; lol idk what ~ casters (suggestions?). In Elite content I would up the % chance to moderate, and the type to be *random: around that corner could be more Orcs, or a Beholder, or a Drow Necromancer (<- ready to animate their fallen comrades, ofc!), or a Medusa or... A huge Violet Ooze in a Blade Trap crossd with Lightning Bolts, or...

    *Random meaning exactly that: whatever, wherever. Exceptions would generally be end bosses and mini bosses required for location specific quest progression.

    Improved AI, adjusted by difficulty setting. Normal mobs can remain unchanged, Hard & Elite examples:

    • Give the mobs actual tactics.
    Warrior types: Hard mobs should refuse to be kited, instead using ranged options or taking cover vs Archers/Throwers/Casters when it's available. Elite mobs should be doing things like scattering vs Ranged/Casters to minimize susceptibility to IPS & AoE attacks, and moving on intercept vectors/setting "road blocks" vs a player's kiting tactics.

    Caster types: Hard mobs should recognize when damaging spells are ineffective, and adjust accordingly (ie "They just Evaded my Meteor Shower, I'll try Polar Ray next.) Elite mobs should be intuitive about what to try first (ie That looks like a Caster - use Reflex based CC, or That looks like a Melee - attact the Will save) and recognize obvious things (ie Ice Storm vs a Blue Fire Shield, Firewall vs a Red one). Elite Divine mobs should be attempting to Raise their fallen comrades (Rasied Comrades do not count towards kill count bonus XP).

    Hard mobs should adapt from failed CC (Disco isn't working, I'll try Web). Elite mobs should be intuitive (ie Web vs Ranged/Casters, Grease or Disco vs Melee)

    Special one for Elite Casters: Charm, Dominate etc. should enable "friendly fire" and cause: Melee to auto attack/cleave (if they have it) nearest party members, Archers to auto attack/IPS (if they have it) party members agroed on the Charming caster, and Casters to cast random offensive spells at random party members. (Essentially turning the PC into an AI run mob during the Charm/effect's duraton, Charmed/effected PC is still immune to non-Charmed friendly fire.)

    Hard & Elite Casters/Rangers should carry and reflexively use Resistance spells (ie casting Acid Resistance after getting Melfed).

    • Danger awareness: Hard mobs should have it on the level of learning from their first encounter with a Blade Barrier or Firewall (etc.) that it hurts, and they should not touch it a second time. Elite mobs should be able to tell just by looking at a Blade Bareier or Firewall that it would be a bad idea to touch it, and avoid it accordingly.


    So there ya have it: how I'ld make the game challenging if I could have my say-so about it. Again, I realize those are (at least in most cases) not any kind of realistic to suggest to the Devs - it's just how I'ld like it to be if it were up to me.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  2. #2
    Community Member Blackheartox's Avatar
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    Basically kill all possible initative for group play and make shuri builds the only viable build.

    /not signed

  3. #3
    Community Member Nayus's Avatar
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    Stopped reading at "my definition".

    If you played DDO you'd know the game has its own definition of quest-difficulty, I won't post it here as an exercise for you to try later, so please log-in to the game and pay more attention to that strange window that shows up whenever you try to enter a quest. Yes, that one that you would leave open for 0,4 seconds before selecting either HE or EH.

  4. #4

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    The one change I'd like to see is to switch all quest mob spawns over to the cannith challenge model. Where instead of knowing exactly where, how many and what type (and what direction they're facing!) mobs are in the quest as we invisi-zerg through, mobs spawn random groups from various spawn points.

  5. #5
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackheartox View Post
    ... make shuri builds the only viable build.
    I think fixing "Shuri" builds would need to be a priority before any update that improved the game in the way the OP is suggesting...

    I'm actually mildly surprised, this could have been one of my own suggestions from years ago when I actually had fairly high hopes for the game. I agree completely, it's just I don't think Turbine has the development skill to accomplish it even if they invested most of their resources in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    The one change I'd like to see is to switch all quest mob spawns over to the cannith challenge model. Where instead of knowing exactly where, how many and what type (and what direction
    they're facing!) mobs are in the quest as we invisi-zerg through, mobs spawn random groups from various spawn points.
    ^^I agree with this, but the change I'd make to your change is that the server would auto-relocate mobs so they didn't spawn on top of players.

  6. #6
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nayus View Post
    ...so please log-in to the game and pay more attention to that strange window that shows up whenever you try to enter a quest. Yes, that one that you would leave open for 0,4 seconds before selecting either HE or EH.
    The window that asks (in essence) "Would you like the mob/trap stats, saves, DCs and HPs set to Low, Medium, or High?" Yeah, I'm familiar with it. Sometimes I just think it would be nice if there were more variety and less predictability - I'm kinda silly like that
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  7. #7
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    You forgot casual.

  8. #8
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    now we're talking! however, this would be good for DDO 2 because its too late for DDO 1.

  9. #9
    Community Member Nayus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    The window that asks (in essence) "Would you like the mob/trap stats, saves, DCs and HPs set to Low, Medium, or High?" Yeah, I'm familiar with it. Sometimes I just think it would be nice if there were more variety and less predictability - I'm kinda silly like that
    Argh, I'll give another tip...

    It contains the text "designed for a party of balanced" or something like that.

  10. #10
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Great ideas.

    It's a shame the company no longer has the resources to work on things like this.

  11. #11
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    take em all away and make epic. The kind that made 4 melee's jump a single mon wailing on it to kill it off after endless cutting even while stunned.

    Just take and give each trash mob 400k hp and it should be about right for when epics were just one single word. And of course deathward everything. If melee's can't be gods no reason we shouldn't make a pale masters life a living hell hahahah.
    Through avarice, evil smiles; through insanity, it sings.

  12. #12
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nayus View Post
    Argh, I'll give another tip...

    It contains the text "designed for a party of balanced" or something like that.
    Ah - Thanx for the tip, I found it this time! Now if you could kindly also direct me to option screen with a check box for:

    • "I'ld like a different quest experience this time."
    -or-
    • "Enable randomized mob types and locations."

    You know, the one that offers a challenge by an alternative means to the same mobs with bigger numbers. It'd be much appreciated, tyvm in advance!


    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    Great ideas.

    It's a shame the company no longer has the resources to work on things like this.
    Thanx! And yeah, it's why I acknowledged that very thing both before and after the main body of the post. More often than not, in the various threads that discuss/complain about challenge or lack of it, I see a lot of "So how do you think it should be challenging?" type questions - usually answered by either crickets or something kinda vague like "Not with just bigger numbers." I just thought I'ld take it a bit further and get rather detailed and specific beyond simply stating "Randomization."

    Did I think - or even hope - it would be acted upon by the Devs in any way? Not at all.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  13. #13
    Community Member Nayus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    • "Enable randomized mob types and locations."
    Oh, Tornadoes are a threat to humankind, let's build a fortress that flies above the clouds and live there! The tornadoes won't reach us!

    Honestly, if you're just wanted to spout unrealistical nonsense you should have said it at the beginning.

  14. #14
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nayus View Post
    Oh, Tornadoes are a threat to humankind, let's build a fortress that flies above the clouds and live there! The tornadoes won't reach us!

    Honestly, if you're just wanted to spout unrealistical nonsense you should have said it at the beginning.
    Um... I thought I did, both at the beginning and at the end?
    {goes back to OP and checks...}
    Yup, sure enough:

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    I fully realize little if any of what's to follow can actually be implemented...

    <snip>

    Again, I realize those are (at least in most cases) not any kind of realistic to suggest to the Devs...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  15. #15
    Community Member tralfaz81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nayus View Post
    Stopped reading at "my definition".
    You should have actually read it, he has some good ideas.

    I made a similar post about two years ago and strongly support more randomization of mobs and traps. Its easy to zerg and the game looses all challenge when you know exactly what to expect around every corner. I think random mobs and more, stronger, random mini red named bosses would go a long ways towards making the game more interesting.

    I also think they should stop heaping hit points on to monsters as an answer to power creep. Keep the present hit points but raise their saves to CC. Half the reason the game is so easy right now is the power of most CC spells. Instead of a mob being a threat, it becomes a game of shooting fish in a barrel. CC should still work but only freeze about half the mob in its tracks, that way you still have something hitting back and an actual challenge instead of just hacking helpless enemies to pieces.

    I don't agree with the hard setting though. Hard should still be hard, there should still be a challenge there. Outside of that, this mostly goes on my list of things that would make the game better but will probably never happen.

    Edit - I will say that if any type of random element were introduced, it should be a choice when entering the quest. A box you checked to randomize the dungeon. That way if you wanted a challenge you could check it, if you want an easy zerg, you could bypass it to run the quest as it was first designed.
    Last edited by tralfaz81; 08-24-2014 at 04:01 AM.
    "Shut up and die like a wizard"

  16. #16
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    I quote myself.

    Example: Superimpose coherent random enemy parties to current dungeons.

    Picture the quest death undone. Now, in addition to the regular enemies, a text appears at the beginning of the quest informing you that the drow necromancer has allied with a powerful wraith and his army of ghosts. Then, through the quest, random spawns of wraiths and other ghostly creatures appear. Killing them and killing the orange or red name wraith grants additional XP and perhaps some loot.You may very well have a good number of random enemy parties ready and classify them by teams to make them fit the theme of the dungeon.

    This is already in the game in the form of random encounters in slayer areas. Would just need some adjustments for quests. And this is without thinking much. I am sure there are MANY ways

    The problem is that if Turbine thinks that instead of investing in making content more replayable they can just throw us another hamster wheel and we will be happy, they ll do that. Like they did with eTRs, which btw are also a source of power creep. People who keep insisting that making 90% of the game more enjoyable (all the TR path) is a waste are those who bought into the grind-and-zerg spirit.

    PS- I would be perfectly happy if they halted the production of new quests to instead implement randomization. A couple of quests in a few months don't really solve the issues we have and are not that great in terms of adding replayability.

    If you do introduce randomization, please make it have some sense lore wise.

  17. #17
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    I quote myself.




    If you do introduce randomization, please make it have some sense lore wise.
    it wouldn't be outside of fitting in with the current lore of the game to just allow the quest to spawn existing mob types that are already in the quests just in random rather than static.

    OP lays it out well all the way up until friendly fire that one just never work well in a PVE game too much potential for griefing.

  18. #18
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxarhamar View Post
    OP lays it out well all the way up until friendly fire that one just never work well in a PVE game too much potential for griefing.
    Really? I thought I had griefing fairly well prevented. While Charmed the player looses control, and AI takes over - so the charmed player can't intentionally choose which party member targets they attack or how, and the Charmed player themselves remain immune to friendly fire. The only avenue for griefing I saw was a player intentionally making their Will/Enchantment save low enough to ensure getting Charmed - plus getting a griefer's rep is never a good thing, it wouldn't take long for that consistently Charmed player to end up as a Soul Stone in a lava pit earning a place on those "special" friends lists.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by tralfaz81 View Post
    Keep the present hit points but raise their saves to CC. Half the reason the game is so easy right now is the power of most CC spells. Instead of a mob being a threat, it becomes a game of shooting fish in a barrel. CC should still work but only freeze about half the mob in its tracks, that way you still have something hitting back and an actual challenge instead of just hacking helpless enemies to pieces.
    .
    I don't think CC should be nerved. Most groups don't use it that much, ocasional hold monster aside.

    it is the one thing that encourages cooperation still

  20. #20
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    (...)
    Improved AI, adjusted by difficulty setting. Normal mobs can remain unchanged, Hard & Elite examples:
    (...)
    I think, the biggest problem with your suggestions is that they are complicated to program while not bringing in any money directly. While I would /sign any better AI for monsters any time, I fear this simply will not get done - too much effort for too less in returns.

    We may hope on a DDO 2 though, as remote as this currently is.

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