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  1. #41
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    I was totally serious with my post. I wasn't trying to be a jerk. On the Lamania boards we want to look at actual results from Lamania. Theorycraft has its place, but on the Lamania boards we are usually looking for actual play experiences.

    As to the problem that EE isn't rewarding enough over, say, EH that's somewhat off topic for Blitz.

    On the topic of Master's Blitz, we will be looking at dialing back it's melee and ranged power. I don't think having Blitz be different than some of the other high end ED abilities by having more potential uptime is necessarily bad; variety is often good. We just don't want it to be so good that it overwhelms the other EDs and it looks like that is still the case.

    Sev~
    The problem is not the melee and ranged power it provides. The problem is the mechanic on how you keep blitz up. Right now, on live, max 2 blitzers can stay up with some coordinations. With these changes, everyone will be able to keep blitz up all the time, just by hitting a boss.

    You say that rewarding EE over EH is offtopic. Well, there is no topic at all for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Um, not really. Here's the logic I see; If you don't have a chance of winning the good stuff why play at all? Oh, and piking for a chance at chests isn't winning, it's charity.
    So only EE is "the good stuff" ? Why don't you actually get better and beat EE then? Why should the best reward be handed to you? Should you be rewarded with +6 Tomes by beating Harbor stuff too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I have a feeling Turbine follows my logic more than yours as seeing who is good enough doesn't do for the bottom line what more people wanting to play does. If I follow your logic, owners of sporting goods stores put all the good stuff at the top of 50 flights of stairs to ensure only those deserving get a chance to buy it.
    Turbine followed my logic until 1 update ago.
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  2. #42
    The Hatchery serthcore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoda View Post
    So you tone it further down instead of looking for a new way for it to get it's charges? What's the point? The problem with it is not the 100 melee power, the problem is that it requires no special circumstances to keep it going thus making boss/raidboss fights too easy, restrict it's usability and it'll be just fine. If you don't want to get back to the old charge/last hit mechanic, just change it so that if a mob dies near the blitzer it gets a charge (such technology should be available based on how No Remorse works in Divine Crusuader).
    This gave me an idea. What if they introduce something like: whenever you hit an enemy with a tactical feat (cleaves, stun, etc.) you put a "curse" on an enemy, if the enemy dies within x seconds, you get a blitz charge.
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  3. #43
    Community Member Dagolar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    I was totally serious with my post. I wasn't trying to be a jerk. On the Lamania boards we want to look at actual results from Lamania. Theorycraft has its place, but on the Lamania boards we are usually looking for actual play experiences.

    As to the problem that EE isn't rewarding enough over, say, EH that's somewhat off topic for Blitz.

    On the topic of Master's Blitz, we will be looking at dialing back it's melee and ranged power. I don't think having Blitz be different than some of the other high end ED abilities by having more potential uptime is necessarily bad; variety is often good. We just don't want it to be so good that it overwhelms the other EDs and it looks like that is still the case.

    Sev~
    If it makes you feel better, I didn't consider you as being jerky;
    There was definite mischief there in the emphasis of extremes, but it was also (to me) apparent you were being serious, and trying to use the extremes to emphasize the need for firm clarification.

    'course, people confuse what I mean all the time, so if I understood you perfectly, perhaps.. ;P


    My suggestion is, keep the final core ability of Divine Crusader in mind when looking at Blitz.
    It's fun, it's simple, it's potent, it's suitably conditional.

    While Blitz needs its own flavor, if it's in line with the overall sentiment with Zeal of the Righteous, then that'd be o-kay.
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    Fly? That would break every quest in the game. You would see folks falling from the sky in Korthos and dying. It would be a rain of newbs.
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    Yeah. It's not "we nuked the city from orbit", it's "the city experienced a brief population drop". Check.

  4. #44
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    I was totally serious with my post. I wasn't trying to be a jerk. On the Lamania boards we want to look at actual results from Lamania. Theorycraft has its place, but on the Lamania boards we are usually looking for actual play experiences.

    As to the problem that EE isn't rewarding enough over, say, EH that's somewhat off topic for Blitz.

    On the topic of Master's Blitz, we will be looking at dialing back it's melee and ranged power. I don't think having Blitz be different than some of the other high end ED abilities by having more potential uptime is necessarily bad; variety is often good. We just don't want it to be so good that it overwhelms the other EDs and it looks like that is still the case.

    Sev~
    Why in the world would you make an ability that has been giving melee players thousands of hours of fun into a vanilla, who-gives-a-**** ability? The melee power isn't the problem, its the charging mechanic that seems problematic.

    Before, the use of blitz was primarily against TRASH. The charging mechanic made it the king of trash, so if we have to do a boss heavy raid we'd consider a more boss heavy destiny, such as unbridled (and of course there's middle ground, blitz works very well against bosses that are surrounded by trash, but that's a content design thing as well). Right now, blitz is good against anything because of the charging mechanic, not because of the melee power its giving - we lost the niche situation where blitz excelled, now its every situation.

    Bring back the on-kill effect, and you'll have found the golden sweet spot - removal of charging mechanic, dramatic reduction in the amount of damage it gives us now, which brings other destinies in line, but it still has the opportunity cost of killing trash to keep going.

    Done. Why is this so difficult?
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  5. #45
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    I was totally serious with my post. I wasn't trying to be a jerk. On the Lamania boards we want to look at actual results from Lamania. Theorycraft has its place, but on the Lamania boards we are usually looking for actual play experiences.
    That's what made it a good post. This is the time for real feedback from actual testing and claims that can actually be backed up. Weeding out posts based on knee-jerk reactions and assumptions can often be difficult when looking for good feedback.

    As to the problem that EE isn't rewarding enough over, say, EH that's somewhat off topic for Blitz.

    On the topic of Master's Blitz, we will be looking at dialing back it's melee and ranged power. I don't think having Blitz be different than some of the other high end ED abilities by having more potential uptime is necessarily bad; variety is often good. We just don't want it to be so good that it overwhelms the other EDs and it looks like that is still the case.

    Sev~
    Interesting. From a character vs monster perspective I agree. EE is way too easy atm, characters do way to much damage (blah blah, I'm starting to sound repetitive on this)
    From a character vs character perspective though, I think blitz is actually in a good spot relative to Divine crusader melee, furyshot archers, and shiradi casters. Dialing it back too much with no changes to those other top level builds will likely just make it non-viable. (and of course by viable I mean able to trivialize all EE content in the game)
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  6. #46
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Why in the world would you make an ability that has been giving melee players thousands of hours of fun into a vanilla, who-gives-a-**** ability? The melee power isn't the problem, its the charging mechanic that seems problematic.

    Before, the use of blitz was primarily against TRASH. The charging mechanic made it the king of trash, so if we have to do a boss heavy raid we'd consider a more boss heavy destiny, such as unbridled (and of course there's middle ground, blitz works very well against bosses that are surrounded by trash, but that's a content design thing as well). Right now, blitz is good against anything because of the charging mechanic, not because of the melee power its giving - we lost the niche situation where blitz excelled, now its every situation.

    Bring back the on-kill effect, and you'll have found the golden sweet spot - removal of charging mechanic, dramatic reduction in the amount of damage it gives us now, which brings other destinies in line, but it still has the opportunity cost of killing trash to keep going.

    Done. Why is this so difficult?
    Be careful what you wish for. The on-kill effect works fine on live because other melee dps is pathetic in comparison, and you typically cant get more then 2 blitzers going at once. With all destinies doing more dps its going to be much more difficult to stack blitz with the on-kill mechanic then it is on live, not to mention irrelevant whether the blitzer even gets going at all.
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  7. #47
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Be careful what you wish for. The on-kill effect works fine on live because other melee dps is pathetic in comparison, and you typically cant get more then 2 blitzers going at once. With all destinies doing more dps its going to be much more difficult to stack blitz with the on-kill mechanic then it is on live, not to mention irrelevant whether the blitzer even gets going at all.
    I'm fine with having the opportunity cost being the balancing factor. If its harder to charge blitz, then by virtue of that fact the other destiny's will be utilized more by people who aren't interested in that mechanic. The only thing that'll keep blitz competitive with all of that in mind is the sustained power it provides.

    The closest thing that comes to max blitz damage right now is zeal, but I don't know where it stands quantitatively.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    So only EE is "the good stuff" ? Why don't you actually get better and beat EE then? Why should the best reward be handed to you? Should you be rewarded with +6 Tomes by beating Harbor stuff too?
    One of the biggest problems I've seen in DDO is when people talk this way to players in game and they get fed up and leave after a few bad experiences. The best way Turbine can fight it is by letting people earn their own loot even if it takes 2x or 4x or 8x as long vs. EE.

    I really like the Haunted Halls model. Everyone has a chance for the base item, but you have a better chance at higher difficulties. The upgrade materials drop at much higher rates on higher difficulities.

    I am still able to sell my HH gear for more than I can sell most EE gear so I have to think it's not as easy to get these items as people indicate.

    With that said I don't mind tiered loot in quests, but I think HH model and especially the new epic/mythic model are much better because it allows casual players to get gear in a reasonable time-frame, but the true grinders have the grind they've been asking for and can exclusively get the best gear because few people are willing to do it. I hope not to see tiered raid loot without an upgrade path ever because even though some of these people ask for more challenge they simultaneously use every exploit and favorable game bug they can to trivialize content. If they do tiered loot I hope they use the FOT model that has an upgrade path.
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  9. #49
    Founder Lifespawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Be careful what you wish for. The on-kill effect works fine on live because other melee dps is pathetic in comparison, and you typically cant get more then 2 blitzers going at once. With all destinies doing more dps its going to be much more difficult to stack blitz with the on-kill mechanic then it is on live, not to mention irrelevant whether the blitzer even gets going at all.

    on kill effect with a purification style curse would solve things too 20% chance to gain a charge when a mob that has recently been effected by your curse of blitz dies

    That doesn't solve the always on that is on live now and makes it an always on thing but with the damage being dialed back a bit it could still be the best over time dps available with things like zeal from dc being situationally better

    But it does solve the things dying too fast and more than 1 blitzer in the party problems in one fell swoop
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Fernando has yet to even suggest a nerf of anything.
    Oh and by the way (referring to your sig), we aren't nerfing the Torc.

  10. #50
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    The closest thing that comes to max blitz damage right now is zeal, but I don't know where it stands quantitatively.
    Its quite complicated since zeal vs blitz comes down to so many different build factors, but here's my quick napkin math on it:

    100 base dps before melee power, 0% doublestrike, no on-hit effects, SWF, assuming it takes 2 minutes to charge blitz to full stacks, assuming 85 melee power in LD is a bug.

    Zeal @ 2 minutes = 321 dps
    Blitz @ 2 minutes = 240 dps

    Zeal @ 4 minutes = 263 dps
    Blitz @ 4 minutes = 265 dps

    Zeal @ 6 minutes = 282 dps
    Blitz @ 6 minutes = 273 dps

    Zeal @ 8 minutes = 263 dps
    Blitz @ 8 minutes = 277 dps

    >8 minutes Zeal approaches 263, blitz approaches 290


    Blitz numbers would go up relatively by adding doublestrike and offhand attacks
    Zeal numbers would go up relatively by adding on-hit effects or factoring in extra AOE damage from DC.

    Rough conclusion is that they are going to be closely matched.
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  11. #51
    Executive Producer Severlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Why in the world would you make an ability that has been giving melee players thousands of hours of fun into a vanilla, who-gives-a-**** ability? The melee power isn't the problem, its the charging mechanic that seems problematic.

    Before, the use of blitz was primarily against TRASH. The charging mechanic made it the king of trash, so if we have to do a boss heavy raid we'd consider a more boss heavy destiny, such as unbridled (and of course there's middle ground, blitz works very well against bosses that are surrounded by trash, but that's a content design thing as well). Right now, blitz is good against anything because of the charging mechanic, not because of the melee power its giving - we lost the niche situation where blitz excelled, now its every situation.

    Bring back the on-kill effect, and you'll have found the golden sweet spot - removal of charging mechanic, dramatic reduction in the amount of damage it gives us now, which brings other destinies in line, but it still has the opportunity cost of killing trash to keep going.

    Done. Why is this so difficult?
    We've got a lot of feedback that:

    ~ It's not fun to group with blitzers who argue to the rest of the group to not kill trash so they can keep up blitz.
    ~ Because of the mechanics of blitz it actively discourages grouping for builds that use it, and that's not good.

    Sev~

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Why in the world would you make an ability that has been giving melee players thousands of hours of fun into a vanilla, who-gives-a-**** ability?
    Because it's a dumb and broken ability that never should have been in the game.

  13. #53
    Community Member G_Lich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    We've got a lot of feedback that:

    ~ It's not fun to group with blitzers who argue to the rest of the group to not kill trash so they can keep up blitz.
    ~ Because of the mechanics of blitz it actively discourages grouping for builds that use it, and that's not good.

    Sev~
    Agreed. On kill is bad. Party getting mad that someone killed something that was meant for "the blitzer" (I am currently running 2 endgame blitz builds) is not fun as a group, both for the person who wants to contribute, as well as the person who wants to keep blitz going. This is a really a gameplay issue, not a balance issue.

    Players: Before we start clamoring for On-kill again - get out of the current blitz bubble and think about the other players. Before we know it they'll be starting to think of a middle ground like a timed build up and expiration like the wood woad in primal.
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  14. #54
    Community Member G_Lich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    Because it's a dumb and broken ability that never should have been in the game.
    +1 After posting my message, read this and it pretty much sums it up... But can't tell if serious.

    Blitz is fun for the blitzer, but god forbid you "steal his kills" lest ye be berated.
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by g_lich View Post
    +1 after posting my message, read this and it pretty much sums it up... But can't tell if serious.

    Blitz is fun for the blitzer, but god forbid you "steal his kills" lest ye be berated.
    my suggestion fixes both problems
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Fernando has yet to even suggest a nerf of anything.
    Oh and by the way (referring to your sig), we aren't nerfing the Torc.

  16. #56
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    We've got a lot of feedback that:

    ~ It's not fun to group with blitzers who argue to the rest of the group to not kill trash so they can keep up blitz.
    ~ Because of the mechanics of blitz it actively discourages grouping for builds that use it, and that's not good.

    Sev~
    You know, not every ability should appeal to 100% of the population, as long as there are competitive alternatives.

    We're certainly on our way towards making the alternate options more competitive, so those who are complaining about blitz can go and use something different.

    Hey, I'm ok with obliterating bosses without needing to feed my charges. But I don't think you'll be ok with that. So, instead of continuously nerfing blitz down to uselessness, I think its a better idea to just keep the on-kill effect.
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  17. #57
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    We've got a lot of feedback that:

    ~ It's not fun to group with blitzers who argue to the rest of the group to not kill trash so they can keep up blitz.
    ~ Because of the mechanics of blitz it actively discourages grouping for builds that use it, and that's not good.

    Sev~
    Then make it so that when you hit the mob, you automatically curse that mob. When the cursed mob die, you got a charge. Use the same mechanic as Shrouding Strike but instead of actually giving them a Curse enhancement, you automatically curse them. The curse could last from 3 to 5 seconds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rys View Post
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  18. #58
    Community Member G_Lich's Avatar
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    Yeah we actually thought about that in a recent raid, the ability to mark targets would be useful. It has also been mentioned that marking like the shadowdancer shrouding shot/strike would also work. But it seems like this would be extremely cumbersome so a 100% curse on hit (with no curse negatives mind you) would definitely do the trick, then it's just a matter of "who's curse was it"?

    And the "time cursed" is a big deal, 1s? 2s? 3s?
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  19. #59
    The Hatchery Zoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    We've got a lot of feedback that:

    ~ It's not fun to group with blitzers who argue to the rest of the group to not kill trash so they can keep up blitz.
    ~ Because of the mechanics of blitz it actively discourages grouping for builds that use it, and that's not good.

    Sev~
    /squelch add nubblitzerperson fixes the first problem. Or an even more fun solution is denying their blitz on purpose, they annoy you, so you annoy them right back, trolls ftw! After the first problem is solved the 2nd one disappears by itself.

    Why, oh why devs always listen to people asking for more and more easy buttons? There is another half asking for the complete opposite. A game that's getting balanced around noobs will never be balanced.
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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Rough conclusion is that they are going to be closely matched.
    For what it's worth and it's still anecdotal evidence.

    28 minutes DA with tier 2 Falchion in Crusader and almost the same time in LD.
    Also 29 minutes with Tier 2 Bastard and shield ( haha ).

    Considering < sub 30 minutes is probably what can multilife thf toons do with CURRENT Blitz, character created in 5 minutes on Lama shouldn't.

    I say it again, these changes are ridiculous. This leaves other characters behind. My melees do already bajillion times more damage than Cleric for example.
    If the content is going to get balanced with these changes in mind, we are going to see huge decline of casters. Melees are in best shape ever, since Motu.
    Last edited by Wipey; 08-24-2014 at 03:06 PM.
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