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  1. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    That's really interesting, as it seems that others are the selfish ones and want the game catered completely to them. No one said that if EE was increased in difficulty and designed around power gamers that you couldn't still play on en or even eh. But no, that isn't good enough. YOU and others want every single difficulty designed around your abilities... and then go on to call others selfish. That's a bit odd to me. We are't demanding that the entire game be designed around us, we are asking for 1/3 difficulty settings, while you and others are asking for 3/3. In no world are the ones asking for less more selfish than the ones asking for more.
    The problem is the devs added favor to the game that can only be had from running EE. Favor that comes stacked on top of the favor from that other 2/3rds of the game.

    If they made a nightmare difficulty for those looking for the challenge, without any sort of otherwise unattainable rewards, I don't think many would have a problem with it. But adding those rewards implies that munchkining, meta-gaming and taking advantage of limitations in the games AI, mechanics and architecture is the way an RPG should be played, rather than just a way for insecure players to feel better about themselves.

  2. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    The problem is the devs added favor to the game that can only be had from running EE. Favor that comes stacked on top of the favor from that other 2/3rds of the game.

    If they made a nightmare difficulty for those looking for the challenge, without any sort of otherwise unattainable rewards, I don't think many would have a problem with it. But adding those rewards implies that munchkining, meta-gaming and taking advantage of limitations in the games AI, mechanics and architecture is the way an RPG should be played, rather than just a way for insecure players to feel better about themselves.
    See that is in fact almost where the entire issue stems from, the way we earn favor. And Favor is not considered optional by any faction of the playerbase. Even in year one, lvl 10 cap, we had people commonly seek Elite Dif openers on any more well rounded build plan, which for most of us was anything after the first, and for some like myself included our first doing quite well in the game at ever step of the lvling up process.

    Back then without DS soloing was a brutal affair and one most did not bother with until lvls where AOE became easy to bring to the table. I still recall fondly my brutal efforts soloing the old catacombs at lvl on elite dif with my first character. it was a rather proud time in that young adventurers life. It was not marked by special loot, but vitally needed favor that was constantly hungered for even before we had TP rewards connected to them.

    And now that they are connected to TP, no one, and I mean NO ONE wants to be missing out or taking it slow when it comes to earning the stuff, especially the pure FTPs. Ive even pondered if it wouldnt be more beneficial to the over all way players can approach the game if each quest would instead have a total favor earnable, same as each currently gives on elite, but then allow multiple runs of lower difs to earn their appropriate favor each time until they capped favor for the content. Or even allowing favor gains to reset like XP and allow people to earn up their favor where they feel comfortable rather then with specific content that may end up driving them away from the game in frustration.

  3. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    The problem is the devs added favor to the game that can only be had from running EE. Favor that comes stacked on top of the favor from that other 2/3rds of the game.
    Favor is an interesting argument. What Favor gains are you looking for that can only be acquired by running EE @ or close to @ level? I specifically mentioned "@ level" because even the ability to upgrade CitW weapons can be fairly (relatively) easily accomplished running EE quests over level with a capped character. In the level span of EGH & above - where EE questing remains rather harsh even for many capped characters, their isn't much TP difference to be gained between EH and EE - especially when anything with a Heroic counterpart offers the same Favor on Heroic Elite.

    I'm genuinely curious.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  4. #504
    Community Member Lorianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Favor is an interesting argument. What Favor gains are you looking for that can only be acquired by running EE @ or close to @ level? I specifically mentioned "@ level" because even the ability to upgrade CitW weapons can be fairly (relatively) easily accomplished running EE quests over level with a capped character. In the level span of EGH & above - where EE questing remains rather harsh even for many capped characters, their isn't much TP difference to be gained between EH and EE - especially when anything with a Heroic counterpart offers the same Favor on Heroic Elite.

    I'm genuinely curious.
    The problem isn't that they're asking for epic elite to be increased. A number are asking for even heroic elite to be bumped up to be "challenging" to twinked out, ship-buffed, multi-TR'd characters. And that completely screws over the rest of the player base when it comes to earning favor rewards. Try getting to 150 favor with Kundarak, for instance, if you're limited to only hard difficulty. Or getting to 150 favor with Argonnessen if you're essentially locked out of elite. Even getting to 150 with the Coin Lords becomes a lot tougher. Etc.

    If they want to make a difficulty higher than Epic Elite, that's fine. But Heroic Elite doesn't need to be changed. There are MANY ways to make HE more challenging. The people grumpy about it being "too easy" just don't want to actually do any of them. They'd rather have it changed for them rather than not use some of the optional things that make them overpowered for heroic content.

  5. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    The problem isn't that they're asking for epic elite to be increased. A number are asking for even heroic elite to be bumped up to be "challenging" to twinked out, ship-buffed, multi-TR'd characters. And that completely screws over the rest of the player base when it comes to earning favor rewards. Try getting to 150 favor with Kundarak, for instance, if you're limited to only hard difficulty. Or getting to 150 favor with Argonnessen if you're essentially locked out of elite. Even getting to 150 with the Coin Lords becomes a lot tougher. Etc.

    If they want to make a difficulty higher than Epic Elite, that's fine. But Heroic Elite doesn't need to be changed. There are MANY ways to make HE more challenging. The people grumpy about it being "too easy" just don't want to actually do any of them. They'd rather have it changed for them rather than not use some of the optional things that make them overpowered for heroic content.
    I really don't care much about heroic elite, but how did people fair in the past. Before the enhancement pass and before the incredible power creep from loot, heroic elite could be challenging. If we were to go back to say, 2012 difficulty of heroic elite, would that be bad?

  6. #506
    Community Member Lorianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I really don't care much about heroic elite, but how did people fair in the past. Before the enhancement pass and before the incredible power creep from loot, heroic elite could be challenging. If we were to go back to say, 2012 difficulty of heroic elite, would that be bad?
    The main reason heroic isn't a challenge for the "it's too easy" crowd is ship buffs. Ship buffs trivialize early content, because they don't scale to your level. A 5th level cleric self-buffing is only going to have 10 points in resists, whereas with ship buffs you can run around with 35-40. This makes it incredibly easy to just curb-stomp the 1-12th level content. After that it starts getting a LITTLE tougher, but even then, with huge resists, +4 to all stats, bonuses to healing, skills, at least +2 to all/important stats from tomes, etc, it makes the heroic game easy.

    People have been running elite difficulty for a long time, and the difficulty ranged from easy to hard, depending on the quest, the party, etc. Elite difficulty, if you run it at-level and don't go out of your way to twink your character out, CAN be challenging. The problem is that people don't want to have to do any work on their end to make it a challenge. They want the game to be changed to suit them, and to hell with the people it screws over.

  7. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    The problem isn't that they're asking for epic elite to be increased. A number are asking for even heroic elite to be bumped up to be "challenging" to twinked out, ship-buffed, multi-TR'd characters. And that completely screws over the rest of the player base when it comes to earning favor rewards. Try getting to 150 favor with Kundarak, for instance, if you're limited to only hard difficulty. Or getting to 150 favor with Argonnessen if you're essentially locked out of elite. Even getting to 150 with the Coin Lords becomes a lot tougher. Etc.

    If they want to make a difficulty higher than Epic Elite, that's fine. But Heroic Elite doesn't need to be changed. There are MANY ways to make HE more challenging. The people grumpy about it being "too easy" just don't want to actually do any of them. They'd rather have it changed for them rather than not use some of the optional things that make them overpowered for heroic content.
    heroic elite used to actually be challenging years ago, but there were no real incentives to run higher than normal. Turbine started providing more reasons to run higher difficulties and than the player base got upset because elite was too difficult to acquire better/more rewards. Shroud extra chests is a very good example. Turbine started tweaking down the difficulties making it easier. the twinked out, ship buffed, multi TR'd characters didn't really start becoming a common thing until after MOTU release. the end game switched from raiding to reincarnation. a lot of players didn't TR up to that point, or they mostly did relevant past lives that would actually make a difference in epic content like FVS and Wizard past lives.

    favor never was an issue. 10 hit points was never considered a must before and still isn't today. that extra bank space was done above level and you could get a group easily if you needed to. running any favor was very common as level 20s because the game was focused on raiding. people had the time and the character power to go back and run for any favor if they really wanted it bad enough. aside from that, using favor being tougher for players to achieve if heroic content was boosted a little more challenging is not a solid reason to not do it.

    the biggest reasons why people don't want heroic content more challenging is because they don't want to be slowed down while they do their past lives and prefer the focus on epics instead. first life or new players who struggle with elite need to understand there are lower difficulties designed for them until, if ever and want to, they become better players to run elite difficulty. i don't necessarily fault these players though, given that all you ever see on the lfm is elite and it can be tough to get a group together for a lower difficulty they can actually handle better.
    Gary Gygax quotes

    The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience.

    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

    When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.

    The secret we should never let the game masters know is that they don't need any rules.

  8. #508
    Community Member Lorianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    heroic elite used to actually be challenging years ago, but there were no real incentives to run higher than normal. Turbine started providing more reasons to run higher difficulties and than the player base got upset because elite was too difficult to acquire better/more rewards. Shroud extra chests is a very good example. Turbine started tweaking down the difficulties making it easier. the twinked out, ship buffed, multi TR'd characters didn't really start becoming a common thing until after MOTU release. the end game switched from raiding to reincarnation. a lot of players didn't TR up to that point, or they mostly did relevant past lives that would actually make a difference in epic content like FVS and Wizard past lives.
    Ehh, I don't really agree. I used to see twinked out and fully ship-buffed people running 24/7 ever since they were introduced back in update-5. (Despite my forum join date, I've actually been playing off and on since the game launched, back when Threnal was the end-game) The moment ship-buffs became available, people would load up on them and refuse to do quests without them. Even to the point of making the entire group wait while they headed back to town through multiple zones, refreshed all their buffs, and came back. Or between each quest if they died. It was really, really annoying.

    favor never was an issue. 10 hit points was never considered a must before and still isn't today. that extra bank space was done above level and you could get a group easily if you needed to. running any favor was very common as level 20s because the game was focused on raiding. people had the time and the character power to go back and run for any favor if they really wanted it bad enough. aside from that, using favor being tougher for players to achieve if heroic content was boosted a little more challenging is not a solid reason to not do it.
    Back when a top-end character had like 400hp that +10 WAS significant. Especially if you weren't a big-hit-die type and only had 200ish hp. Extra inventory was always important (especially for casters, since Turbine seems to either not want or be incapable of coding up a spell components bag, grr), and extra bank space was extremely handy. Here's the thing: you don't want to make people have to level up to cap and THEN grind out favor.

    Arguing that it's "not a good reason not to do it" because it makes it harder on new/non-TR characters? Okay. Then let me flip that around: Making it harder on the majority of the population to appease a small group who want low-level content to be "challenging" for their twinked-out characters isn't a good reason to do it either.

    the biggest reasons why people don't want heroic content more challenging is because they don't want to be slowed down while they do their past lives and prefer the focus on epics instead. first life or new players who struggle with elite need to understand there are lower difficulties designed for them until, if ever and want to, they become better players to run elite difficulty. i don't necessarily fault these players though, given that all you ever see on the lfm is elite and it can be tough to get a group together for a lower difficulty they can actually handle better.
    Except that if you make it so that elite is "challenging" for people running 24/7 ship buffs, twinked out gear, and multiple past lives, you put elite OUT OF REACH for a lot of first-life characters, and FAR out of reach for new players. Do you honestly think it's in Turbine's best interest to basically give a giant middle finger to anyone who isn't a ship-buffed TR junkie?

    I'm all for them making a level of difficulty for epic quests above elite. But heroic doesn't need to be changed. There are MANY ways to "challenge" yourself in heroic content. If you're not willing to do them, but instead demand the game be changed to cater to you, that's incredibly selfish. There's just no good reason to do it. It doesn't make sense from a developer manpower standpoint, and it doesn't make sense from an economic standpoint. Which means the odds of it happening are somewhere between miniscule and none.
    Last edited by Lorianna; 08-30-2014 at 08:37 PM.

  9. #509
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    Ehh, I don't really agree. I used to see twinked out and fully ship-buffed people running 24/7 ever since they were introduced back in update-5. (Despite my forum join date, I've actually been playing off and on since the game launched, back when Threnal was the end-game) The moment ship-buffs became available, people would load up on them and refuse to do quests without them. Even to the point of making the entire group wait while they headed back to town through multiple zones, refreshed all their buffs, and came back. Or between each quest if they died. It was really, really annoying.


    Back when a top-end character had like 400hp that +10 WAS significant. Especially if you weren't a big-hit-die type and only had 200ish hp. Extra inventory was always important (especially for casters, since Turbine seems to either not want or be incapable of coding up a spell components bag, grr), and extra bank space was extremely handy. Here's the thing: you don't want to make people have to level up to cap and THEN grind out favor.

    Arguing that it's "not a good reason not to do it" because it makes it harder on new/non-TR characters? Okay. Then let me flip that around: Making it harder on the majority of the population to appease a small group who want low-level content to be "challenging" for their twinked-out characters isn't a good reason to do it either.



    Except that if you make it so that elite is "challenging" for people running 24/7 ship buffs, twinked out gear, and multiple past lives, you put elite OUT OF REACH for a lot of first-life characters, and FAR out of reach for new players. Do you honestly think it's in Turbine's best interest to basically give a giant middle finger to anyone who isn't a ship-buffed TR junkie?

    I'm all for them making a level of difficulty for epic quests above elite. But heroic doesn't need to be changed. There are MANY ways to "challenge" yourself in heroic content. If you're not willing to do them, but instead demand the game be changed to cater to you, that's incredibly selfish.
    yes, people would not run quests without ship buffs and it certainly trivialized content back then, just like they arguably do now. ship buffs are actually a balance issue when designing content because the devs expect most players to have access to them. that can actually hurt new players who find the game even more challenging than necessary. the twink gear was easily gotten by running above level. i used to do this myself before i would TR. i would get my GS crafted first and farm any lower level quests for gear that would be helpful while leveling. a lot of the level 13+ gear was still considered worthy of using at cap. this all ties into what i said earlier about having the time to go back and run quests for favor. many would go back and farm for the loot and get their 20 raid completions to twink themselves out before TRing.

    the 10 hp was easily gotten even running GH and Reavers on hard difficulty. if you didn't get it at level in GH, you got it in RR anyways by 20. the extra bank space was and still is handy, but like i said, a lot of people would just go back at level 20 to get the last bit of favor they needed. have to remember that back then, elite didn't become the norm until BB was introduced. you often could go back and elite out all the level 5-7 House K quests you did on norm. today, there is very little favor that is actually worth getting and whats worth getting is actually not hard to get above level. if they want it bad enough they will make the time to get it and eventually when they become better players that can just get it along the way as they level like a lot of players already do. i don't see any realistic drawback by boosting heroic difficulty a little more as vets will still most likely run elite and new players would hopefully run hard/norm learning how to play.

    yes, we are a small group that actually want to bring challenge back to heroics. like i said, the people who don't want heroics messed with are the ones that don't want to be slowed down while acquiring their past lives. people always throw in playing the game for fun, but the fun gets boring after awhile when a vet can demolish most heroic elite content. people don't like to fail and expect auto win every time they run a quest. again, boosting elite is all i care about for the challenge aspect. hard/norm can be left as is for the players that are less skilled.
    Gary Gygax quotes

    The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience.

    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

    When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.

    The secret we should never let the game masters know is that they don't need any rules.

  10. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    Here's the thing: you don't want to make people have to level up to cap and THEN grind out favor.
    Why the heck not? It's how I had to do it on my first few characters, and on the 2nd life of my first TR. I imagine there's at least a few other players in the same boat, plus many of those old timers no longer playing. What's wrong with newer players doing that way too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    Except that if you make it so that elite is "challenging" for people running 24/7 ship buffs, twinked out gear, and multiple past lives, you put elite OUT OF REACH for a lot of first-life characters, and FAR out of reach for new players.
    Sure, if you're talking about them running it AT LEVEL. If Elite is doable at level on a new/first life character, what is the point of the existance of multiple difficulties? My understanding of Normal and Hard is that they're there for learning, and advancing you skills/character untill it/you are capable of Elite. If Elite is supposed to be the difficulty of choice for those new to the game, there's something very broken indeed. They should just do away with Normal and Hard then and roll the XP into Elite, since apparently Norm & Hard are just there to supply additional first run XP bonuses since the "highest" difficulty setting should not be too difficult for new/1st life characters to do at level. /ridiculousness.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  11. #511
    Community Member Lorianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    yes, we are a small group that actually want to bring challenge back to heroics. like i said, the people who don't want heroics messed with are the ones that don't want to be slowed down while acquiring their past lives. people always throw in playing the game for fun, but the fun gets boring after awhile when a vet can demolish most heroic elite content. people don't like to fail and expect auto win every time they run a quest. again, boosting elite is all i care about for the challenge aspect. hard/norm can be left as is for the players that are less skilled.
    Please don't assume things that aren't true. It just makes you come across as incredibly condescending, and more than a bit arrogant. Especially when you start tossing out "players that are less skilled" stuff.

    Here's the bottom line: Heroic content CAN be challenging, if you don't go out of your way to trivialize it. Don't use ship buffs. Use normal gear instead of loading up on green steel. Run without a henchman. Etc. There are many, many ways to make the quests more challenging. When these are brought up, however, the general response is "But I don't wanna do that, I want all my toys, the game should be changed to cater to me!" The problem is you HAVE gone out of your way to make it as easy as possible. And once you reach that point, you realize that it's not really much of a challenge anymore. This isn't because the game has become easier. It's because you specifically CHOSE to make it easier.

    Giving a gigantic middle finger to the majority of the playerbase to cater to a small, vocal group is a horrifically bad idea for Turbine. Hence, the odds of it ever happening are pretty much nil.

    Lobby for a difficulty above elite in epics. That's likely to get more traction. Heroic content is fine as it is.

  12. #512
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    Please don't assume things that aren't true. It just makes you come across as incredibly condescending, and more than a bit arrogant. Especially when you start tossing out "players that are less skilled" stuff.

    Here's the bottom line: Heroic content CAN be challenging, if you don't go out of your way to trivialize it. Don't use ship buffs. Use normal gear instead of loading up on green steel. Run without a henchman. Etc. There are many, many ways to make the quests more challenging. When these are brought up, however, the general response is "But I don't wanna do that, I want all my toys, the game should be changed to cater to me!" The problem is you HAVE gone out of your way to make it as easy as possible. And once you reach that point, you realize that it's not really much of a challenge anymore. This isn't because the game has become easier. It's because you specifically CHOSE to make it easier.

    Giving a gigantic middle finger to the majority of the playerbase to cater to a small, vocal group is a horrifically bad idea for Turbine. Hence, the odds of it ever happening are pretty much nil.

    Lobby for a difficulty above elite in epics. That's likely to get more traction. Heroic content is fine as it is.
    what word do you prefer that doesn't sound so condescending to you? believe me I wasn't trying to be condescending.

    ah yes, the usual response of "if you want challenge, than run quests naked". I see no reason why heroic elite cant be challenging for twinked out vets. there is no middle finger to the player base when there is hard/norm for the <non condescending word> players.
    Gary Gygax quotes

    The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience.

    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

    When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.

    The secret we should never let the game masters know is that they don't need any rules.

  13. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    Here's the bottom line: Heroic content CAN be challenging, if you don't go out of your way to trivialize it. Don't use ship buffs. Use normal gear instead of loading up on green steel. Run without a henchman. Etc. There are many, many ways to make the quests more challenging. When these are brought up, however, the general response is "But I don't wanna do that, I want all my toys, the game should be changed to cater to me!"
    No, the response is "The let's me have these toys, and I want to play with them!" Suggesting that we should have to leave our toys in the box (bank) in order to have fun (be challenged) is ludicrous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    The problem is you HAVE gone out of your way to make it as easy as possible. And once you reach that point, you realize that it's not really much of a challenge anymore. This isn't because the game has become easier. It's because you specifically CHOSE to make it easier.
    The problem is that the supposed "highest difficulty setting" is so difficult (<- /sarcasm) that new players/first life characters are running it SUCCESSFULLY right off the boat. This is not a jealousy thing, it's a sad commentary on a 4 difficulty system, where the super easy, normal and hard settings serve no real purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    Lobby for a difficulty above elite in epics. That's likely to get more traction. Heroic content is fine as it is.
    How you can not see that the difficulty system is broken is mystifying. Tell me please, how is it fine that new players don't need to start on lower difficulties because the highest setting is appropriately acomplishable for them? How does that even make sense?
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  14. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    what word do you prefer that doesn't sound so condescending to you? believe me I wasn't trying to be condescending.

    ah yes, the usual response of "if you want challenge, than run quests naked". I see no reason why heroic elite cant be challenging for twinked out vets. there is no middle finger to the player base when there is hard/norm for the <non condescending word> players.
    "Run the quests naked?" So going without ship buffs is THAT unthinkable to you? Another person in this thread scoffed and compared going without ship buffs as "gimping himself", too. And that's precisely the problem. So many people have started considering ship buffs to be part of their character, that you'd consider going without them akin to purposefully weakening your character. As though the buffs were PART of them, rather than an external option. In short, you've become dependent upon them. Green steel, hirelings, etc, are similar but not quite as culpable as the omnipresent and overpowered ship buffs, especially in early/mid heroic content.

    Here's an extreme example: Let's say there was a dagger in the game that you could use at 2nd level that did a base damage of 500 and had +100% attack speed. Using it would completely negate the challenge of just about any quest. Once you have it, the game becomes "easy mode", and you come to the forums saying that it should be balanced around that weapon. People suggest, "Well, you could just NOT USE IT...", to which you scoff and declare that doing so would be akin to "playing naked" or "purposefully gimping yourself".

    You see my point? Just because there's an option you CAN use in the game doesn't mean you always HAVE to use it. You've taken an optional thing (ship buffs) and declared them to be mandatory. Same with green steel, hirelings, etc. They're options. They're not chained to every character you have by the ankle, making you unable to play the game without them.

    If you lean on them that heavily, they've become a crutch.

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    No, the response is "The let's me have these toys, and I want to play with them!" Suggesting that we should have to leave our toys in the box (bank) in order to have fun (be challenged) is ludicrous.
    Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you always HAVE to. Not everyone who goes deer hunting, for instance, takes thermal tracking equipment, laser scopes, fully automatic weapons, etc. Some people go hunting with a bow. Because they find it to be more fun, and more challenging. They have the option of taking "all the available toys", but they choose not to.

    The problem is that the supposed "highest difficulty setting" is so difficult (<- /sarcasm) that new players/first life characters are running it SUCCESSFULLY right off the boat. This is not a jealousy thing, it's a sad commentary on a 4 difficulty system, where the super easy, normal and hard settings serve no real purpose.
    So it's a horrible, game-breaking thing that someone might actually be able to run elite content on their first life? Elite is not meant to be "only for ship-buffed TR-junkies". It's meant to be a challenge for first-life characters, but beatable. And that's exactly where it is right now. Take a 3rd level character, without ship buffs, without multiple TRs, and run through the Waterworks chain on elite. It is NOT going to be a walk in the park. It's going to be difficult, and they may die repeatedly, but it's possible to accomplish. Not LIKELY, if they really are new, but possible.

    Now, take someone who's got multiple past lives, full ship buffs, the best gear for their level, etc. They're going to blitz through it. Is it because the person is just "more skilled" than the new player? Partially. Largely because they're loaded to the gills with things that make the quest easier.

    How you can not see that the difficulty system is broken is mystifying. Tell me please, how is it fine that new players don't need to start on lower difficulties because the highest setting is appropriately acomplishable for them? How does that even make sense?
    It's only "broken" because you're looking at it from a single perspective.

    Player A, a relatively new player to the game, is running around on his 2/1 fighter/rogue. He decides to try Kobold Assault (3rd level quest) on elite difficulty, since everyone says elite is "easily accomplished" by even newbies. For support he brings along his trusty 3rd level cleric hireling. He gets mobbed during the quest and destroyed, baffled at how easily he and his 60hp, zero resists character were swarmed over and crushed.

    Player B, a veteran player on a minmaxed fighter with 8 past lives, a full rack of ship buffs and and best-in-slot gear for his level, runs Kobold Assault at 5th level, since running it at-level is pointless as being 2 levels over still gives him the bravery bonus. Due to the enormous buffs and better gear, he clears it with relative ease, and sighs at how "easy mode" the game has become.

    Extreme examples? Maybe. But that seems to be the argument a lot of you are making. Loading yourself up to the gills with buffs, best-in-slot/level gear and every other conceivable advantage and then blowing through quests, and declaring the system "broken" because you can do so. New players, without all those advantages, don't just rip through quests like tissue paper. Even vets don't, if they actually run the quests without buffs and farmed gear at-level. Even you replied that running them "at level" was much more difficult.

    The point is this: loading yourself up on every conceivable advantage in order to minimize difficulty and then acting mystified as to why it's easy is silly. Elite difficulty, if done at-level and without every possible advantage, CAN be challenging on a number of quests. Not all of them, as some ARE easier than others, but the point is that if you purposefully attempt to make your runs easier by doing them at +2 level, full ship buffs, twinked out gear, etc, don't act surprised when it is, in fact, easy.

    Yes, all those options are in the game. But you're not FORCED to use them. You CHOOSE to use them. They're "options", not "requirements". Challenging yourself is all about removing things that make the task easy. If you can't live without ship buffs and twinked gear, that's not the game's fault. It's yours. The game is only "broken" because you go out of your way to break it.

    But I'm done arguing this. Feel free to continue to tilt at windmills all you want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cathimon View Post
    By that I'm talking about the entire game, level 1 to 28. But especially heroic content. It seems to be a consensus that elite is really in fact normal difficulty, and hard and below is the casual difficulty.
    Elite used to be elite when it first came out just like epic elite was but many players cried and DDO gave in. It seems you can't please..blah...blah, you know how that goes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Favor is an interesting argument. What Favor gains are you looking for that can only be acquired by running EE @ or close to @ level? I specifically mentioned "@ level" because even the ability to upgrade CitW weapons can be fairly (relatively) easily accomplished running EE quests over level with a capped character. In the level span of EGH & above - where EE questing remains rather harsh even for many capped characters, their isn't much TP difference to be gained between EH and EE - especially when anything with a Heroic counterpart offers the same Favor on Heroic Elite.

    I'm genuinely curious.
    It's not so much what favor rewards can be reached as giving one play style access to more favor than another pointing to that play style being somehow the "right" or preferred way to play. Especially when that style pretty much involves throwing any sense of flavor or immersion out the window to play the game based on munchkinning the mechanics and playing to the limitations in the games AI and architecture.

    While I have no problem with those who like that play style, I do have a problem with rewarding them more than those who try to keep at least some RP elements in their RPGs.

    One of the things that made old epics good was that they gave no favor, no xp and any items gotten were only useable at cap (mostly to run those same epics). That was a good way to add this sort of challenge option while minimizing it's effect on the rest of the game (it would have been better if epic items would only be epic in epic content, but it's an imperfect universe).
    Last edited by Gremmlynn; 08-31-2014 at 02:15 PM.

  17. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorianna View Post
    "Run the quests naked?" So going without ship buffs is THAT unthinkable to you? Another person in this thread scoffed and compared going without ship buffs as "gimping himself", too. And that's precisely the problem. So many people have started considering ship buffs to be part of their character, that you'd consider going without them akin to purposefully weakening your character. As though the buffs were PART of them, rather than an external option. In short, you've become dependent upon them. Green steel, hirelings, etc, are similar but not quite as culpable as the omnipresent and overpowered ship buffs, especially in early/mid heroic content.

    Here's an extreme example: Let's say there was a dagger in the game that you could use at 2nd level that did a base damage of 500 and had +100% attack speed. Using it would completely negate the challenge of just about any quest. Once you have it, the game becomes "easy mode", and you come to the forums saying that it should be balanced around that weapon. People suggest, "Well, you could just NOT USE IT...", to which you scoff and declare that doing so would be akin to "playing naked" or "purposefully gimping yourself".

    You see my point? Just because there's an option you CAN use in the game doesn't mean you always HAVE to use it. You've taken an optional thing (ship buffs) and declared them to be mandatory. Same with green steel, hirelings, etc. They're options. They're not chained to every character you have by the ankle, making you unable to play the game without them.

    If you lean on them that heavily, they've become a crutch.
    running quests without ship buffs is not unthinkable, but in order to find challenge in elite, you suggested I gimp my characters after spending lots of time acquiring gear, past lives, guild renown, meta gaming, etc to find challenge. that is unthinkable. the game changed when Turbine changed the way the game is played with reincarnation and other forms of power creep. I simply play the game trying to make powerful characters and playing smart and Turbine eased up on the challenge for reasons we can only assume to allow players to not slow down while acquiring past lives and cater to a more casual player base.

    I have not become dependent on ship buffs. I was around before ship buffs were introduced and I learned a lot about how to play smarter and with the resources the game had to offer. when I died in quests I didn't complain I lost my buffs or beg for buffs from divines. I came prepared for just in case and adjusted my tactics. ive carried over what I have learned into todays game.

    incorrect. if an extreme example occurred like the dagger, I would be crying for balance and nerf the dagger. anything I feel is OP in the game I join the few players that want to see some semblance of balance and than suffer the ridicule of trying to suggest such thing.

    I see your point. you think the game shouldn't evolve as character power evolves. that to me, is wrong and think balance should be brought back to the game, which I think the devs are actually trying to do despite things like store products that work against them and is out of their hands.
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    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

    When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.

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  18. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    One of the things that made old epics good was that they gave no favor, no xp and any items gotten were only useable at cap (mostly to run those same epics). That was a good way to add this sort of challenge option while minimizing it's effect on the rest of the game (it would have been better if epic items would only be epic in epic content, but it's an imperfect universe).
    As for when it comes to endgame, this shows really well that better loot in term of reward doesn't even have to be accessible to all because it simply isn't for everyone. I so agree and feel like the ones against are mostly overreacting or just holding a grudge against more hardcore players based on an image they created of those. Which is usually exaggerated and false. Not everyone, of course. I'm just kidding, these are all the effect of an old misunderstand so here we go.

    Players of all kind need to understand a couple things:

    - We all wanna have fun

    - We pretty much all like a challenge that is as much as possible suited for our level. Some don't so their opinion are totally out of touch when it comes to challenge/reward.

    *Problem here, imo, is that even people who don't care/won't ever care get to voice their opinion and the hate towards powergamer/endgamer helps, I believe, to accentuate this the way we see today. So yeah, it goes "I don't want them to have this and that" instead of "Well, I just don't care. This is not all that I play for".

    - No one is looking for an advantage over the other in the first place. It is most of the time simply a result of making it fun for everyone. What seems unfair can actually be the most fair thing if you take a second to look at the big picture (except the major P2W whales in major P2W games)

    - End game, in MMOs is somewhat a sacred expression. Not only does it mean "at cap level" but it also usually comes with a couple of things to do (loot/upgrades/advancement and challenge being the 2 primary IMO). It shouldn't be made in order to be avoided/loathed. Never. Here the challenge may vary depending on game mechanics and demography perhaps but with DDO's system, I feel like it could be done in order to pretty much please anyone. /opinion



    While these 4 points are quite simple and won't cover and break all the misconceptions, they are a starting point for those more "casual" players that might wanna try and put themselves in an endgamer's shoes who just like the game as much as him. Stop getting influenced and repeating the same **** over and over again because well it's just not the reality.


    TL/DR: Everyone is a customer. We have different liking. They should be covered. The result of this may not appear fair to YOU but it is perhaps for the best overall - don't see it as something "against you" when it's simply not "aimed for you". Finally, the misconceptions are getting old and leads further to stereotyping a non existent entity.

    Edit: And then we can all have fun! With things such as... a challenging end game with some exclusive rewards!
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 08-31-2014 at 03:17 PM.
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  19. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by shores11 View Post
    Elite used to be elite when it first came out just like epic elite was but many players cried and DDO gave in. It seems you can't please..blah...blah, you know how that goes.
    I noticed your join date is 2006. Yea, things have changed...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Sure, if you're talking about them running it AT LEVEL. If Elite is doable at level on a new/first life character, what is the point of the existance of multiple difficulties? My understanding of Normal and Hard is that they're there for learning, and advancing you skills/character untill it/you are capable of Elite. If Elite is supposed to be the difficulty of choice for those new to the game, there's something very broken indeed. They should just do away with Normal and Hard then and roll the XP into Elite, since apparently Norm & Hard are just there to supply additional first run XP bonuses since the "highest" difficulty setting should not be too difficult for new/1st life characters to do at level. /ridiculousness.
    I have always been under the impression that normal and hard were there for those who like to play normal and hard, while elite is there for those who like to run elite. Kind of like mild, medium and hot salsa, just a personal taste, with none being more right or worthy than the others.

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