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  1. #161
    Founder Kylstrem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    It could very well make them butthurt and if they represent a large enough demographic they could very well not have to just live with it. I wont say it's right or fair, it's just how things are.
    Based on the changes made to the loot mechanics, it appears it was a large enough demographic.

    e3BC, Thunderholme and Haunted Halls did away with the Epic Normal, Epic Hard, Epic Elite levels of loot due to this "butthurt" over people complaining about the best loot only being available to the "elitists".

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    It could very well make them butthurt and if they represent a large enough demographic they could very well not have to just live with it. I wont say it's right or fair, it's just how things are.
    I have already accepted the fact that there will never be challenge in DDO again. I'm still not going to stop talking about how this is a bad idea going forward, and I'm still not going to stop suggesting that there could be different difficulties that cater to different types of players. I really wonder how many people the game would lose if players couldn't easily complete EE content, compared to how many players the game has already lost and will lose in the future as it moves away from challenging players.

    There's a lot more to this than simply offering challenge. Without challenge, the game can't have a successful endgame. Without challenge, the pool of potential players grows smaller as players realize that the grind that DDO is based around is completely empty, since the things you're grinding for have no meaning because they don't help you overcome any challenge.

    It all seems like a bad design choice to me. But we'll see.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I have already accepted the fact that there will never be challenge in DDO again. I'm still not going to stop talking about how this is a bad idea going forward, and I'm still not going to stop suggesting that there could be different difficulties that cater to different types of players. I really wonder how many people the game would lose if players couldn't easily complete EE content, compared to how many players the game has already lost and will lose in the future as it moves away from challenging players.
    A lot of players can't. The gap between those who play "competitively (for lack of a better term) and those who don't is rather wide.

    There's a lot more to this than simply offering challenge. Without challenge, the game can't have a successful endgame. Without challenge, the pool of potential players grows smaller as players realize that the grind that DDO is based around is completely empty, since the things you're grinding for have no meaning because they don't help you overcome any challenge.

    It all seems like a bad design choice to me. But we'll see.
    Many of us still find challenge, even outside of EE. In a lot of cases because we didn't work hard not to by studying mechanics to find the best mathematical combinations or the loot charts to farm the hell out of specific gear sets.

    Frankly, even if the demographics are about even, it likely would be their choice to take the more easily (and cheaply) pleased "casual" crowd ahead of the more demanding "hard cores". One content update a year with whatever loot they feel like putting in it would likely do for us.

  4. #164
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    Disclaimer: I am not for making the game harder

    However, I disagree with this. Turbine has given us all kinds of power, and now we are told if we want a challenge to remove all of our gear or lead a bunch of gimps thru content. This is why we have lost so many vets in this game.

    I am not saying that Turbine has to make a “nightmare mode” that only the top 1% of people can beat, but EE is often too easy. What would be wrong with making EE actually hard so that you need pipe hitters in the line up? Is it because casuals or players that do not like to run hard content would be butt hurt that they do not get the best gear?

    As I said, I am not advocating for a harder game, but it does bother me that many vets are leaving the game because there is no challenge in this game (to many vets) unless they gimp themselves to play.
    If they can make it "harder" using their imaginations, adding interesting mechanics which require some thought to complete, making mobs cast different spells etc...Im all for it.

    If they make it "harder" by adding a zero to the mobs HP and ramping up the saves by 20, and the DC needed by 15, no thanks.

    The quest becomes similar in difficulty, just slightly longer due to having to saw through more HP.

    I will guarantee you, If I was the designer and I subjected players to the former, most would be right back here on these forums complaining about it. I wouldn't raise the HP or saves any more than they are now. Mobs would be dispelling and mass holding. They would have EDs. Someone would get PWK once in a while just to keep it real. Archers would hit their many shot and burst away. Mobs would cast debilitating debuffs which coincided with the next spells they cast, just like players do. Bosses would use specific gear like hirelings do. Oh no, that giant has an ESOS..lolwut!!!

    They could cut mob HP in half, or even down to 25% and it would be more challenging if "difficulty" was added in this fashion, rather than simply inflating stats. But then....it wouldn't get defeated in game as much, it would be defeated on the forums. Just like shroud blades. Just like crucible.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    If they can make it "harder" using their imaginations, adding interesting mechanics which require some thought to complete, making mobs cast different spells etc...Im all for it.

    If they make it "harder" by adding a zero to the mobs HP and ramping up the saves by 20, and the DC needed by 15, no thanks.

    The quest becomes similar in difficulty, just slightly longer due to having to saw through more HP.

    I will guarantee you, If I was the designer and I subjected players to the former, most would be right back here on these forums complaining about it. I wouldn't raise the HP or saves any more than they are now. Mobs would be dispelling and mass holding. They would have EDs. Someone would get PWK once in a while just to keep it real. Archers would hit their many shot and burst away. Mobs would cast debilitating debuffs which coincided with the next spells they cast, just like players do. Bosses would use specific gear like hirelings do. Oh no, that giant has an ESOS..lolwut!!!

    They could cut mob HP in half, or even down to 25% and it would be more challenging if "difficulty" was added in this fashion, rather than simply inflating stats. But then....it wouldn't get defeated in game as much, it would be defeated on the forums. Just like shroud blades. Just like crucible.
    And 6 months later we would have this same thread as players figure out the changes you painstakingly made. It's probably why they just add that 0 across the board rather than customize each mob in each quest.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Frankly, even if the demographics are about even, it likely would be their choice to take the more easily (and cheaply) pleased "casual" crowd ahead of the more demanding "hard cores". One content update a year with whatever loot they feel like putting in it would likely do for us.
    I would totally agree with this in general. Not sure though if the casual crowd isn't more demanding atm in DDO. Not like there's much of a hardcore scene left (guessing) anyway.

    What I hear most is still the casual crowd demanding that the hardcores cannot have what they want. Because then, they couldn't have it. Demanding to restrain the game around what one group wants feels pretty intense to me.


    They've done it before (+/- exclusive content and real end game) and I just don't see why it would cause such a riot now that it would push that many players off. But maybe it would.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 08-22-2014 at 06:09 PM.
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  7. #167
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    I do not agree. The devs made the decision of instead of providing a solid end game give incentives to people to repeat content from Korthos onwards in a mechanic know as True reincarnation. It is the responsability of any good designer to then provide an engaging time for this people that are TRing.

    If they cannot make low level quests entertaining to people TRing, then TRs should start not at level 1 but at the level for which they can provide adequate content. Doing otherwise is poor game design.

    How to make the game more difficult with static content is an entirely different question. Probably it involves moving away from this completely static content design, but it is beyond the point.
    I'm not TR'ing to run Korthos, I'm doing it to be more effective at end game. If they intended us to spend all our time in the TR train, past life feats wouldn't cap at 3. I didn't start my main's last life thinking "Gee, I miss Korthos", I TR'd because I found that I really liked the EK Pre on a first life sorc, and was wondering "What would it be like with 3 FvS past lives". So, I TR'd. The problem with your stance here is that I don't care what it's like at level 1, or level 10. I want to know what it's like at level 20/8. I want to see which of the EDs is going to really make it shine, not read about what somebody else thought was best on the forums. That's where I expect my toon to be challenged, not trying to get through Korthos, or the Harbor. That stuff is over so fast now that challenge doesn't even come into the picture. TRing is tedious, it's running the same content over and over and over. It doesn't matter how hard they make said content, I know where I need a trapper, and where I don't. I know what weapons to bring for every quest, and what to leave in the bank. They cannot increase the difficulty enough to account for my knowledge, or anyone else's knowledge of the quest, this is metagame. We know what's in there, and what we have to do before we ever enter.

    This isn't true for new players, they don't know that in a cave full of trolls in House K, they're going to need a weapon break DR on Earth elementals, or about the oozes that are going to eat their gear if they're not prepared. How, exactly, are they going to make that challenging for me? Wipe my memory? Because frankly, even on Normal or Hard, a new player can find themselves with broken weapons, naked having to finish out due to oozes eating their stuff. That's what's challenging, and that's what we don't have because no matter how much they tweak the difficulty, we know we need either Everbright, or a Muckbane variant in that quest, and when we're going to need it. So yes, our knowledge can trump anything they can do to existing quests, making any increase in difficulty irrelevant.

    I prefer DDO to other DnD MMOs. Hence, I play it. But DDO is constantly evolving (has little do to do with what it was years ago!). I would like it to go in the direction of providing more challenge, not less. There is no incoherence in my position.



    Gasp! A costumer? Even DDO has those, not everyone is grinding their fingers to the bone to get favor TPs.
    The challenge is at what we have for endgame, where it's supposed to be, for us longer time players. For new players that aren't hitching a ride on someone's TR train, the challenge is all over the place.

  8. #168
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    I would totally agree with this in general. Not sure though if the casual crowd isn't more demanding atm in DDO. Not like there's much of a hardcore scene left (guessing) anyway.

    What I hear most is still the casual crowd demanding that the hardcores cannot have what they want. Because then, they couldn't have it. Demanding to restrain the game around what one group wants feels pretty intense to me.


    They've done it before (+/- exclusive content and real end game) and I just don't see why it would cause such a riot now that it would push that many players off. But maybe it would.
    *Emphasis mine

    Isn't that exactly what's being discussed here? Demanding to change the game for what one group wants? What difference does it make if it's "casuals" or "hard cores"?

  9. #169
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    And 6 months later we would have this same thread as players figure out the changes you painstakingly made. It's probably why they just add that 0 across the board rather than customize each mob in each quest.
    Not really, because those changes would only be counter-able using strategy and tactics, not spells and gear to cover up all weaknesses.

    The reason they add that 0 across the board is because while people will group, its more like 6 people soloing in the same instance. Players are too concerned with who gets to do the killing, and cant be bothered to be tethered to having to help someone else get the kill by healing, or debuffing mobs etc. Shying away from forced cooperation like its the plague is why every single class is getting turned into a DPS machine, with the level of utility each brings to the table being completely ignored in the balance equation.

    My version of EE would give you two options.

    1. Forced cooperation.
    2. Character death.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    *Emphasis mine

    Isn't that exactly what's being discussed here? Demanding to change the game for what one group wants? What difference does it make if it's "casuals" or "hard cores"?
    It makes all the difference in the world.

    In theory, the harder it is, the more people can be satisfied. If the game is too easy and non rewarding, it will not please anyone who is looking for something above the max difficulty/reward. When the bar is set higher, more groups can find their enjoyement in an environment that was more or less trying to satisfy those specificaly.

    So if you dumb down the game too much you will automatically block the access (fun) for those looking for more. While if you set the bar higher, all is left is a certain "feeling" that will perhaps in fact also block the fun for some. But while one is real, the other is constructed... if that makes sense.

    Now everything has to be thought out when it comes to making a decision Turbine's side but I don't see how could it be possible to push that many people off by having something a bit more exclusive loot/difficulty wise for those that used to have it and that are still looking for it. Honest customers as well. On the other side, focusing everything around the TR grind is not a great plan, imo, for the game.

    I do still have hope that I will eventually like the game enought to consider playing it long term (= playing it at all) but right now, it is doing well to, not even please a certain crown, but to totally ignore another.


    Edit: By "constructed" I mean that if the game was the same but without that extra challenge/reward (aka right now), "casual" people would enjoy it as much. If it exists though, it becomes something else.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 08-22-2014 at 07:06 PM.
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  11. #171
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    It makes all the difference in the world.

    In theory, the harder it is, the more people can be satisfied. If the game is too easy and non rewarding, it will not please anyone who is looking for something above the max difficulty/reward. When the bar is set higher, more groups can find their enjoyement in an environment that was more or less trying to satisfy those specificaly.

    So if you dumb down the game too much you will automatically block the access (fun) for those looking for more. While if you set the bar higher, all is left is a certain "feeling" that will perhaps in fact also block the fun for some. But while one is real, the other is constructed... if that makes sense.

    Now everything has to be thought out when it comes to making a decision Turbine's side but I don't see how could it be possible to push that many people off by having something a bit more exclusive loot/difficulty wise for those that used to have it and that are still looking for it. Honest customers as well. On the other side, focusing everything around the TR grind is not a great plan, imo, for the game.

    I do still have hope that I will eventually like the game enought to consider playing it long term (= playing it at all) but right now, it is doing well to, not even please a certain crown, but to totally ignore another.
    Both are constructed. But do tell, how are they going to make the game more difficult for me, when I get back to Korthos on my fifth life, or sixth, or ultimately 7th, when I finally get tired of running the same content over and over? On top of the fact that my main has been there 4 times, I have 22 more alts that have all been there, and some of those have TRs as well. I'm still waiting for an explanation of how they're going to compensate for my meta knowledge of these quests, or anyone else's for that matter. My "starter" gear already trivializes the content, so will they have to make Elite as hard as EE on Korthos? In the Harbor? The Market Place? All of these chains/quests have been run by me until they're rote. I'm far from the only one, I don't have any completionists, let alone triples. So, there's no conceivable way to amp it up, barring making it nearly impossible to run, and if they did that, those here wanting challenge would be right back here complaining that it's too hard.

    So tell me, how are they supposed to increase the difficulty? They could go the EE route, and everything is 95% immune to everything you have, but then we'd have the "I'd run xx difficulty, but hard is more efficient for my xp/min". If you think we wouldn't, scan through the first couple pages of the Gen Dis forum, there was a topic exactly like that the other day.

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    Both are constructed. But do tell, how are they going to make the game more difficult for me, when I get back to Korthos on my fifth life, or sixth, or ultimately 7th, when I finally get tired of running the same content over and over? On top of the fact that my main has been there 4 times, I have 22 more alts that have all been there, and some of those have TRs as well. I'm still waiting for an explanation of how they're going to compensate for my meta knowledge of these quests, or anyone else's for that matter. My "starter" gear already trivializes the content, so will they have to make Elite as hard as EE on Korthos? In the Harbor? The Market Place? All of these chains/quests have been run by me until they're rote. I'm far from the only one, I don't have any completionists, let alone triples. So, there's no conceivable way to amp it up, barring making it nearly impossible to run, and if they did that, those here wanting challenge would be right back here complaining that it's too hard.

    So tell me, how are they supposed to increase the difficulty? They could go the EE route, and everything is 95% immune to everything you have, but then we'd have the "I'd run xx difficulty, but hard is more efficient for my xp/min". If you think we wouldn't, scan through the first couple pages of the Gen Dis forum, there was a topic exactly like that the other day.
    Alot of games use end game only as the challenging/top rewarding (PvE combat focused) part. After it's done being run much (x time or new update), it gets nerfed so everyone can enjoy it. Even they wouldn't nerf it, next character power could perhaps make it much easier to defeat.

    Of course what I would like is a diversity of spells, mobs set up (archer/mage/warrior that rushes), abilities that could test both your twitch skills at times and more your character raw defense at others. And if it has to be the real challenge of the game, i'd throw in that you have to group sometimes. Maybe split and time a lever, nothing too complicated. Have traps that if you don't have a trapper, you may need to practice 5-10mins+ in order to bypass (dodge/time it/use strategy). Make certain +/- insane stats and skills check for optionals with the best loot.

    It doesn't have to be the craziest stuff that we all know their engine can't do and that people, at this stage in time, won't enjoy. But if you're gonna call it the toughest challenge at the time, I think it's fair to raise the bar a little.

    And I know I shouldn't say this but there would still be at least 3 other difficulties for everyone to enjoy.
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  13. #173
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    When people provide feedback on the "challenge" issue they often confuse "difficulty" with "forgiving".

    Right now DDO isn't as challenging as it used to be, but its not as forgiving as most games.

    If they ramped up the level of challenge, and also made failure more forgiving, it might be received better than just inflating hp/saves/DC.
    Maybe we could have a pay 2 challenge setting.


  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    I'm not TR'ing to run Korthos, I'm doing it to be more effective at end game.
    .... They cannot increase the difficulty enough to account for my knowledge, or anyone else's knowledge of the quest, this is metagame. .
    First of all, end game is a tiny part of DDO. The majority of time is spent TRing. Hence the process of TRing cannot be left alone as an unavoidable painful grind. There is no reason for it to be boring and only worthy of zerg material. It is the case because it has been poorly designed to withstand multiple runs.

    The solution is moving towards randomization. Unexpected brutality, unexpected rewards.

    It can be done: http://www.kongregate.com/games/urbz/mud-and-blood-2

    This simple game provides way more fresh gameplay than DDO does. And it is strictly the randomization, because it is far more limited in options.

    When people come here to complain because all the grind just leads to trivializing content, they are simply spot on. They are our future selves telling us that getting better at DDO just means playing a more boring game.

    So instead of telling them to shut up and play with naked characters, perhaps understand that any effort to make the game more interesting will result in all of us having more fun.

  15. #175
    Community Member Ashlayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    First of all, end game is a tiny part of DDO. The majority of time is spent TRing. Hence the process of TRing cannot be left alone as an unavoidable painful grind. There is no reason for it to be boring and only worthy of zerg material. It is the case because it has been poorly designed to withstand multiple runs.

    The solution is moving towards randomization. Unexpected brutality, unexpected rewards.

    It can be done: http://www.kongregate.com/games/urbz/mud-and-blood-2

    This simple game provides way more fresh gameplay than DDO does. And it is strictly the randomization, because it is far more limited in options.

    When people come here to complain because all the grind just leads to trivializing content, they are simply spot on. They are our future selves telling us that getting better at DDO just means playing a more boring game.

    So instead of telling them to shut up and play with naked characters, perhaps understand that any effort to make the game more interesting will result in all of us having more fun.
    Here we are, on the ragged edge, asking the developers to make the game harder for us. The problem is, short of a complete rebuild to go to a Diablo style dungeon system, where it's random all the time, nobody is explaining how they're going to make the game more difficult for somebody that's run all the quests multiples of 10 or more times. So your idea is to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars completely rebuilding the game. Where's that money coming from? WB? Come on, they didn't even want to pay for Buffy after the second or third season, so I have serious doubts they'll fork over the development cash. The bigger problem is, since it's going to be completely revamping the whole thing, it could literally take years to accomplish, with no return on investment. Are you going to pay them to "upgrade" the current F2P quest chains? Are they going to upgrade just the VIP chains?

  16. #176
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    The problem is, short of a complete rebuild to go to a Diablo style dungeon system, where it's random all the time,
    Diablo is a horrible example. People don't memorize exact footprints, they remember patterns. A Diablo dungeon was essentially 40 really small dungeons all stitched together. DDO has way more than 40 dungeons and they are much, much larger. The only thing that made Diablo replayable at all, just like DDO, is other players (via Battlenet, etc).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    Nobody is explaining how they're going to make the game more difficult for somebody that's run all the quests multiples of 10 or more times.
    So if someone completes an EE raid with their guild, they are now good for PUGging it? They can solo it now, cause they know all the ins and outs?

    No.

    The only reason I participate in these forsaken forums is because without other players, there is no game. Absolutely none. Zilch. Nada. What the people who want challenge are craving, more than anything else, is a chance to help someone else succeed instead of the chance to irritate them by trivializing the small amount of challenge they were hoping to overcome.

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    If they just buff up monsters in heroic elite content, it's the lazy approach, but it would still be infinitly better than not doing anything.

  18. #178
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    considering the kind of dps we can dish out in heroics, even adding some hp to mobs would pose more challenge than the handful of hits it actually takes to kill them.
    Gary Gygax quotes

    The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience.

    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

    When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.

    The secret we should never let the game masters know is that they don't need any rules.

  19. #179
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    considering the kind of dps we can dish out in heroics, even adding some hp to mobs would pose more challenge than the handful of hits it actually takes to kill them.
    I am not a fan of telling Turbine what to do with their funds, but doing something like raising the HP of mobs in Heroic, would be a total waste of time, and offer nothing productive to the game.

    I think it is quite amazing that they can hold people for 5 years, doing the same content time and time again.

    However I would rather see them add in more content, so that players who enjoy the journey could do a TR of once and done, and not need to run almost every single quest in the game, I mean it would be amazing if we could TR on half the content, that way we could alternate what we run each life, which would allow many quests to remain a bit fresh and new to some people who enjoy playing the game.

    To the people that grind and farm max exp/min quests every life, whatever boredom they are suffering is self inflicted.

  20. #180
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    Default Deathwyrm EE

    Bahahaha Tell the battleraggers with more hp than harry and 100+ prr they will lick the **** out of you. but if you insist try doing EE red lights all by Yourself.

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