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  1. #61
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    They would have to dramatically cut power and loot levels, sadly most don't want that they want more and more. If they cut loot by 90% eliminated most tomes, the enhancement system the game might be challenging but most people would leave. Most MMO players want to play in a Monty-haul game world

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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdemeritt View Post
    What did they do to the crucible and when did they do it? I just ran that the other day on EH, and seemed to be the same in every way I remember....
    By its no longer being required to flagged for the raid they switched it for Cabal.

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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunzi2010 View Post
    Are you for real??????
    what part of elite heroic at level is classed as easy? I still die on heroic elite at level when i have a tr toon on the go.
    game is fine where it is thank you very much. you must just be an uber pants player
    Enjoy the compliment and the game
    That would mean more if dieing meant more. Not to say I think it should.

    That said, this game is to static for what the OP seems to want. You either know how to beat the content or you don't.

  4. #64
    Community Member the_one_dwarfforged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdemeritt View Post
    What did they do to the crucible and when did they do it? I just ran that the other day on EH, and seemed to be the same in every way I remember....
    they made it a walk up instead of a flagging quest cuz apparently its real hard.

    for someone interested only in flagging and/or not doing quests that are apparently super duper difficult thats basically removing the quest from the game for them. and maybe that isnt even a huge nerf, but the point is that it was considered harder than say, cabal, but was needed to flag for reavers fate/fot and was changed. i wonder why that could possibly be...because vocal players who want more challenge thought theyd find it in cabal?

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cathimon View Post
    By that I'm talking about the entire game, level 1 to 28. But especially heroic content. It seems to be a consensus that elite is really in fact normal difficulty, and hard and below is the casual difficulty.
    The game is challenging enough, if it's too easy for you - run quests under level. I was bored my final Wizard (sun elf) life and right after I LRed to get rid of the cleric level I ran several level 19 quests on elite - Break in the Ice (for the 8 int goggles), Amrath chain (for favor, exp and fun), House Cannith chain (for flagging), try this maybe? I enjoyed it a lot, didn't die but was damn close several times, used few pots and a lot of time and strategy. Kinda felt the way IQ and DD quests were when they introduced them and I was still on my first life

  6. #66
    Community Member Jeremiah179's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zakharov View Post
    I have to point out that you are wrong – the game you found five years ago is gone and never coming back. No matter what self imposed restrictions you use to challenge yourself you don't have control over the actual game mechanics.

    You could go naked, never use any enhancements, spells, or abilities and the game will still be easier than it was 5 years ago. Dungeon scaling, spell durations both player & npc, spell cost, to-hit mechanics, etc are all beyond your control.

    What I'd really like is some kind of hardcore mode that simulates straight d20 rules. My suggestion from a year ago:

    Hardcore or Permadeath style mode – It could be an option during character creation, be a permanent feat/buff and maybe a visual icon denoting a 'hardcore' mode character. The feat/buff would contain the various changes so you never have to make sweeping alterations to any classes, just modify the buff. I would suggest these changes for any such characters:


    • All spells/abilities would be restored to their original durations for players and for anything cast upon the player (permanent blind etc). An easier implementation would be something like 'any debuff cast upon you has x10 duration' or something similar.
    • No scaling whatsoever, every quest you enter should be scaled up assuming you have a full party.
    • Can only enter quests on 'Elite' difficulty
    • Xp loss on death – I would also add a counter to keep track of how many deaths the character has
    • Permanent lvl drain
    • Can't group with non 'hardcore' mode players as it would be too easy to abuse
    • Can't use guild buffs
    • Can't ever re-enter an active quest
    • Must start at lvl 1 and cannot benefit from xp pots/stones/tomes/anything else that grants xp outside of questing


    Optionally you could go even further and for those with the 'hardcore' buff:


    • Cannot access any enhancements
    • Cannot access any epic destinies
    I think this is pretty reasonable. I would be fine with these characters names being a different color so we notice them running around in the game. I would add a few more things.

    It would be nice if you could turn it off. With the limitation that you could not turn it back on again.

    The deaths should be listed in the bio.

    ****

    There should be a different way to ask for a more challenging game than a thread like this. This does not seem productive.

    Perhaps try to get some support... where are the thousands of people that support the idea? I can't come up with a dozen from this thread? All it is right now is a handful of people alleging that this would be good for the game.

    How about a good business model? I am sorry to say this, but unless you are very wealthy and offering to fund this... it has to be actually be popular enough to make economic sense. How much would you "pay" to see this happen?

    ****

    All of this being said however... it would be cool if the next update had a very hard final mode that took months before anyone ever completed it...


    Unfortunately, when the first group did and all that dropped was trash loot... we would have to read about how much effort the new raid on nightmare took and that nothing dropped and that was BS and at least XX should drop for everyone or someone or whatever... even though everyone getting XX just continues the same problem all over again... lol (Plug the new Augment of Awesomeness or +9 Tome or whatever in for XX or maybe Helm of +100 Best in Slot for any Build... you get the idea)

    Ironically. I agree that normal should be where most people play. Hard should have zero scaling. Elite should introduce randomness, be impossible solo or freakishly hard, and not just be slightly harder and suck down twice as many resources for zero reward. It would be awesome if every Elite completion was worthy of a forum post and had custom events in the quest report at the end that made it unique. So start buying lottery tickets to fund it I guess...

    But I vote with my dollars and my playing hours, and they both are saying I like the game a lot as is... so I guess I am part of the problem.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    The problem is this is a content mastery game and there is a little that can be done to please the people that mastered the content, especially the chronically discontent.

    This is a PVE game with players that adapt and improve vs. an AI that doesn't improve and can be gamed. The two newest raids are still a challenge for groups on EE. If you think it's not enough of a challenge try pugging it. I've seen a few really good groups wipe in the shadow dragon raid on EE because there just isn't much margin for error.

    If you stick to the same heroic quests after stacking up past lifes and tomes and greensteel, you are getting exactly what you worked for - the ability to beat content easier. If you aren't enjoying this try rolling up a new character and choosing a build you know will be more of a challenge without all the heroic easy buttons like tomes, greensteel, past lifes, silver flame pots, etc.
    Add to that the amount of optimization the game offers in character building. Where a two level splash can add more to a pure build than triple completionist and a well thought out level split will put that to shame.

    All the while the devs are trying to make content and opportunities available to all players.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by FAQ View Post
    This thread again?

    There is a two pronged answer to this remark:

    First, try heroic elite on a first life, no twink gear, limited plat, no 32-point life character. That is what heroic elite is meant to challenge.

    And second, what really takes out a lot of the challenge is meta-gaming. Once you've done a quest a lot, you know what to expect and how to overcome it.
    Pretty much sums up what I was going to say. If, after 6 years of playing, a player is asking for the devs to make the game more challenging, may I submit instead the following alternative. Hit themselves on the head enough until they develop amnesia.

    Granted, power creep is real and difficulty has been adjusted downward. But, there is only so much Turbine can do when a large part of the game population seems perfectly content to play the same quest for the 1,000th time (is that an under-estimate).
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  9. #69
    Community Member the_one_dwarfforged's Avatar
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    other than the fact that most players really dont want challenge, there is the question of how could challenge be implemented.

    in my opinion, if the content is going to be static then there need to be more shrines, and less mobs, but every single trash mob fight would require a full party of serious players giving it everything they have. even if that were the case eventually players would learn how to do it most easily and success becomes more likely with every run. i think this would be a good way to do it (a nightmare difficulty) if sufficiently difficult so that even really good static groups with great characters might only get a few completions in before the next update. ee deathwyrm completed multiple times the first day its released? too easy. how this level of difficulty is to be implemented without just making enemies one shot players and have unreal amounts of hp, idk. lastly the rewards other than the achievement should be very minimal, or none at all. talk the talk, walk the walk.

    or content could not be static. how this could work i have absolutely no idea, there would only be a certain amount of "randomness" unless kobolds started randomly appearing in tower of despair instead of shadows, suulo, judge... and if the monsters arent sufficiently strong enough then theres no point in what youre fighting be random. and will the quest lay out an design be random each time too? why have different quests then? cant have a story line, cant name them, nothing to really differentiate them unless they are only random to the extent that "in the next room you might find kobolds, oozes, or an ogre." thats still gonna get metagamed.

    and if there is insane difficulty for no "tangible" reward, who is going to run it? 1% of the population? 2%? lets say 10% of players would run it and really try to beat the new uber difficulty. how does turbine profit from this? they cant release whole new quest packs based on challenging 10% of their customers. theres no cash to be grabbed by implementing a new difficulty for old content that players already own. its just a waste of dev time and money to develop challenging content that isnt just statflation or some other easy tweak.

    and like others have said one of the main points of the game is to make your character better, which means making content easier to complete. the more powerful you can get, the easier quests are. eventually hard gets pretty easy.

    so it seems like real challenge in ddo that is not self imposed is a practical impossibility.

  10. #70
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    challenge is all talk. no fail Threnal quests is what the players really want.
    You say that as if annoying fail conditions are "challenging"


    Quote Originally Posted by Cathimon View Post
    By that I'm talking about the entire game, level 1 to 28. But especially heroic content. It seems to be a consensus that elite is really in fact normal difficulty, and hard and below is the casual difficulty.
    Elite is the "norm" because it's optimal from the point of XP grind (thanks, Bravery Bonus!), not because 100% of players consider them easy. Although most early quests (until the Sands) are still somewhat easy, overall I feel like the game is nicely balanced in terms of difficulty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cathimon View Post
    Sure, TR with the loot and PL + ship buffs it's easier. But still, as a first lifer, if you got a wee bit of experience and know what you're doing, it's still a friggin' cake walk. What would be so bad about raising the difficulty?

    Needs more challenge here, it's boring man. Redo the difficulties so that elite is actually made for the elite and not everybody. Or if needed, add a new difficulty, I don't know, call it Nightmare and make it deadly for real! Has there ever been a need for the casual difficulty in the first place? I think my 93 year old grandma who never touched a keyboard could crush hard diff easy. Whats the point with normal and casual?

    Don't want to be a ****, but if you run normal when you can skip it through VIP or TR or Team, something's wrong with your abilities, no joke!
    They should introduce (forced) permadeath elite mode just so people like you stop whining "it's too easy" and go whining "it's too hard"

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    The game was ALREADY too easy.
    Yet half the forum will scream their heads off when easy buttons are adjusted or slightly nerfed.
    Last edited by Ausdoerrt; 08-22-2014 at 06:17 AM.
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    They should introduce (forced) permadeath elite mode just so people like you stop whining "it's too easy" and go whining "it's too hard"
    A permadeath elite mode wouldn't have to be forced. Elite is not forced as it is, but everybody does it, including the huge newbs! Would it be that expensive and requiring so much work to introduce an other difficulty that's actually difficult? As I mentioned already, they did it with the casual difficulty. Casual wasn't there before...

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Some of the most challenging content in the game is at level heroic quests from 15-19. Ever tried to solo the Lord of Eyes chain or In the Demons Den at level? Makes most EE content look like a joke...

    Anyway, as I see it, the biggest reason challenging content is on the decline is because of the current xp model.

    All players need xp, elite gives the most xp, so all players want to be able to do elite. Its that simple. Since not all players are actually experienced or skilled enough to run elite content (by level 20 cap era standards when this game was actually punishing if you didn't know what you were doing) they will complain if its too hard for them. And its perfectly understandable because the xp model encourages this.

    What I would like to see happen is this:

    Normal = Easy mode.
    Hard = XP mode. Same xp as Elite, same first time bonuses as elite, same streak bonuses as elite.
    Elite = Loot/challenge mode. No need to run this in off destinies or while grinding levels. Make it about the challenge and higher rewards. Get the past life grinders out of elite all together and make it about a fun challenge.
    The problem is that challenge will always be competing with xp and loot in this game. Unlike, say, an old school shooter like Doom where upping the challenge was the only form of progression in the game.

    The problem with your system is that it ties them together, so one either has to want challenge to get anything from the game. While in systems that don't tie them together they end up competing against each other as easier difficulties mean faster xp and/or loot. Personally, I don't think there is a right answer.

  13. #73
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cathimon View Post
    A permadeath elite mode wouldn't have to be forced. Elite is not forced as it is, but everybody does it, including the huge newbs! Would it be that expensive and requiring so much work to introduce an other difficulty that's actually difficult? As I mentioned already, they did it with the casual difficulty. Casual wasn't there before...
    That's what I'm saying, let em have it. Except make sure they lose everything, including all loot, if they die and can't rez in quests. And no shared bank to play around that. Just so that a week later people don't come back saying it's too easy again.

    New people run elite because a majority of the playbase are vets on the BB/TR wheel, and it's nigh impossible to get any other type of group these days. Most of them just backpack-ride to the end.
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    New people run elite because a majority of the playbase are vets on the BB/TR wheel, and it's nigh impossible to get any other type of group these days. Most of them just backpack-ride to the end.
    You're 50% right. They also run elite because, wait for it... it's not really hard! We brought new players recently in our guild, never even played the game, they went for elite straight up because it's -that- easy. They succeeded all the way until they just quit DDO at around level 8 or so. As somebody mentioned, elite gets somewhat difficult in higher levels. Beginning and mid-game, it's cake-walk no matter your DDO wallet, 28 pts build or what.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knobull View Post
    Bingo. I don't TR. I start new characters, I like that game. Not this new "epic" and TR thing. (Valley girl voice: Like OMG that is so totally EPIC!!!11!! )

    The same game is still there. It still has challenge. (But it could use some new quests, but that will never happen from what I can tell... all new content till it
    dies will be lvl26+ and trying to pander to that crowd will be exactly what kills the game - DoooOOooom!)
    I'm attached to my characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    I wish they would just make a hardcore server and allow transfers to it for free, but you can never transfer out of it. Amp up all the difficulties by x%.

    However, how many of these people complaining about lack of challenge would actually move their characters? I would bet not many.
    I have my own guild and kind of like the community on the server I play on. Your suggestion is divisive and splits communities, while also decreasing server population - all bad.

    What would be wrong with having an extra difficulty setting above elite? You wouldn't have to run it. It wouldn't have to provide greater xp, but that would be nice, since it would take more time to finish (presumably).

  16. #76
    Community Member walkin_dude's Avatar
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    Six threads below this one on General Discussion is the one with the guy complaining because he can't have always-on death ward while fighting beholders, and just below that is the one with people rejoicing because Coyle isn't the victory condition for his quest any more.

    Any time there is challenge, people complain until it gets crucibled. I don't think blaming the developers is appropriate on this issue.

    If you want a challenge, stop complaining every time something bumps you below 4k xp/min.
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  17. #77
    Community Member walkin_dude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashlayna View Post
    Are you on a TR Train? Do you run Snowy Korthos, or run straight to the TR cache to "twink" up? How long do you go before you hit the cache if you're running Snowy Korthos? I mean, there are steps you can take to make the game fairly challenging, if you leave your TR gear sets in the bank. If you're running straight to the bank after a TR, who is it that you're really wanting challenged, new players? A lot of them find most of the low level content challenging already. I mean, Snowy Korthos was pretty easy for my 3 FvS past lives Sorc, but I remember when I first ran a sorc in Snowy Korthos, it was pretty challenging, with no past lives, and no gear other than what I dropped. No coin for hires, etc.

    If you're running straight to the bank, and are going to come back with "I earned the gear, I have the right to use it" I'm going to tell you that you are absolutely correct; and then I'm going to point out that just because you trivialize the content by "twinking" out for it doesn't mean the developers have to turn it up to 11 to keep you challenged. If you're interested in challenge, then take it upon yourself to be challenged, instead of trivializing the content, and then complaining because it's too easy.
    +1

    Couldn't agree more.
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  18. #78
    Community Member walkin_dude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cathimon View Post
    So those of us who wants some challenge should just drop DDO and head over to an other game?

    It's rather simple. You're either arguing in favor or making the game fun for everyone. Or you don't and you think no efforts should be spent into making this game fun for more people.

    Seriously, newbies and bad players can stick to hard streak and still enjoy the game, while the elite players could play elite content. Or make a new difficulty, whatever float your boats.
    Speaking for myself, I am fine with stuff being hard. Just makes it that much better when that completion is finally earned.

    But for every one of these posts whining that the game is too easy, there is at least one more post whining about something being too hard.

    Which of these posts are the developers supposed to listen to?
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  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_one_dwarfforged View Post
    they made it a walk up instead of a flagging quest cuz apparently its real hard.

    for someone interested only in flagging and/or not doing quests that are apparently super duper difficult thats basically removing the quest from the game for them. and maybe that isnt even a huge nerf, but the point is that it was considered harder than say, cabal, but was needed to flag for reavers fate/fot and was changed. i wonder why that could possibly be...because vocal players who want more challenge thought theyd find it in cabal?
    I wouldn't say it's that hard. Just real boring for those stuck turning valves in the maze or waiting for whoever is running the traps or swimming to do their thing to get to play some themselves.

    Reconfigure the maze and it would make a great solo quest though.

    Or add random spawns to the maze as well as waves of mobs to hold off in the solo challenge portions to both occupy the rest of the party as well as add a time pressure to those running the challenges and the quest would be much better.

  20. #80
    Community Member walkin_dude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    What would be wrong with having an extra difficulty setting above elite? You wouldn't have to run it. It wouldn't have to provide greater xp, but that would be nice, since it would take more time to finish (presumably).
    Oh, I can already hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth that would ensue if the new super-duper hard difficulty didn't provide a streak and more xp.

    I predict that a new, harder difficulty would cause even more whine posts on the forums. The ones who already whine "too hard!" would post even more, and the ones who whine "not hard enough!" would just keep doing it.
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