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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knobull View Post
    I don't get it. Hold for Reinforcements was a piece of cake, and like other escort quests the failure was immediate, your playtime was not wasted

    Let Sleeping Dust Lie on the other hand, is unplayable in my book, and is cruel and unusual punishment as they save the guaranteed failure for you until you already have put two hours of effort into the quest.
    Let Sleeping Dust Lie puts the pass/fail condition entirely within your control. If you kill spiders, then you fail. If you do not, then you pass.

    Hold for Reinforcement has added several options to try and manage Coyle. I find that letting him chase something off to a corner, then knocking him out and turning him invisible works reasonably well. But even then, he can still be one shot by random agro. Your actions can reduce the chances of bad luck causing failure, but that unlucky one-shot-kill can still happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knobull View Post
    I don't, the end boss(es) do.

    I have read everything there is to read on this quest. I am an expert on Let Sleeping Dust Lie. I have run it at least a half dozen times and not completed it. I will waste no more of my life on some developers sadistic joke. Occasionally I post LFMs asking to pike it, but so far none of these people who supposedly find it easy and fun have offered to run it for me.
    The end bosses do not deal damage to the spiders. They will not ever kill them. And even if they did, depending on the difficulty there are not enough spiders in just the final room to cause the quest to fail.

    The Ogres, on the other hand, do target the named one. If you are failing the quest without killing the spider minions then you probably left some ogres alive in that shrine room, possibly on the hard to reach ledge. I suppose that with a little stretch of the imagination one could suppose that they might finish the named spider off while you are fighting the end bosses, giving the impression that something else actually happened there.
    Last edited by RedHost; 08-21-2014 at 10:48 PM.

  2. #62
    Community Member Nickademus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knobull View Post
    I don't, the end boss(es) do.

    I have read everything there is to read on this quest. I am an expert on Let Sleeping Dust Lie. I have run it at least a half dozen times and not completed it. I will waste no more of my life on some developers sadistic joke. Occasionally I post LFMs asking to pike it, but so far none of these people who supposedly find it easy and fun have offered to run it for me.
    This intrigues me (aside from being off-topic). How do the end bosses kill the spiders?

    Reading about a quest doesn't compare to actual experience, and the wiki doesn't always have everything. Here are some tips that may not be listed about that end fight. As others have said, you can kill them all if you have not killed a single spider between picking up the first journal and entering the boss room. Also, the spiders are completely immune to acid so I wiz/sorc can spam acid blast, rain and fog with no problems. It sounds like you play solo, but if you are in a group another trick is to have a caster surround the barriers with webs prior to turning the last rune wheel. The spiders, naturally, are immune to the web effect but the caster will immediately gain the aggro of all four spider. Then the caster can pull the spiders out into the corridors and kite them around while the party kills the boss.

    Most people (myself included) have more trouble with the ogres in the caves than with the queen battle or end fight. Some more information on what constantly goes wrong for you would help.

  3. #63
    Community Member Knobull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedHost View Post
    The end bosses do not deal damage to the spiders. They will not ever kill them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nickademus View Post
    This intrigues me (aside from being off-topic). How do the end bosses kill the spiders?
    The AoE spells the end boss(es) cast (flame strike I think) damage the spiders. You can stand there and do nothing, the four spiders in the last room will die (in one shot).

    First time through the quest you have no idea this will happen, so when you see you have only accidentally killed one spider along the way, you think you will be fine. Not so. First time through (without reading the wiki for spoilers first), this is a very long quest. So you have spent an hour or more on a quest and fail it at the very end due to factors beyond your control that you could not have predicted. That is just plain sadistic, and not funny at all. It is quite offensive. Bad design, player losing design I would even say.

    The strategy of using two players in the end room, one very lightly or (un)armed to kite the spiders out of the room into the hall while the other player kills the end bosses would not be a documented (in the forums) strategy, if the end boss(es) did not damage the spiders.

    I simply refuse to attempt to play the quest anymore. (Having attempted it at least six times - experience.) If that means I will never get to play one of (the most) popular quests in the game (The Shroud), then so be it. I would pike it though, to get a chance to see what The Shroud is all about.

    The fact is the quest is completely unfun. I have no idea why people try to defend it. It is just awful. Like someone said earlier, it just sours the whole chain, and is quite disappointing as all the other vale quests are fun.

    I think the quest should just be removed form the game. The design cannot be saved.


    edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nickademus View Post
    Also, the spiders are completely immune to acid so I wiz/sorc can spam acid blast, rain and fog with no problems. It sounds like you play solo, but if you are in a group another trick is to have a caster surround the barriers with webs prior to turning the last rune wheel. The spiders, naturally, are immune to the web effect but the caster will immediately gain the aggro of all four spider. Then the caster can pull the spiders out into the corridors and kite them around while the party kills the boss.
    I knew about the acid immunity, and the kiting, but not the use of web - good strategy. Thanks! (But not really helpful to a solo melee.)
    Last edited by Knobull; 08-21-2014 at 11:15 PM.

  4. #64
    Community Member TankerWade's Avatar
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    Also remember to clear all the tunnels that you can before reading the journal. Spiders killed before the journal is read do not count towards the five for failure.

    If you have a wiz/sorc cast flesh to stone on the spiders, then kill everything else.

    If I were to guess though I would bet that you are trying to solo it with a melee with glancing blows. Can be hard that way. Bring a longsword and shield and a hireling with Otto's.

  5. #65
    Community Member TankerWade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knobull View Post
    The AoE spells the end boss(es) cast (flame strike I think) damage the spiders. You can stand there and do nothing, the four spiders in the last room will die (in one shot).

    First time through the quest you have no idea this will happen, so when you see you have only accidentally killed one spider along the way, you think you will be fine. Not so. First time through (without reading the wiki for spoilers first), this is a very long quest. So you have spent an hour or more on a quest and fail it at the very end due to factors beyond your control that you could not have predicted. That is just plain sadistic, and not funny at all. It is quite offensive. Bad design, player losing design I would even say.

    The strategy of using two players in the end room, one very lightly or (un)armed to kite the spiders out of the room into the hall while the other player kills the end bosses would not be a documented (in the forums) strategy, if the end boss(es) did not damage the spiders.

    I simply refuse to attempt to play the quest anymore. (Having attempted it at least six times - experience.) If that means I will never get to play one of (the most) popular quests in the game (The Shroud), then so be it. I would pike it though, to get a chance to see what The Shroud is all about.

    The fact is the quest is completely unfun. I have no idea why people try to defend it. It is just awful. Like someone said earlier, it just sours the whole chain, and is quite disappointing as all the other vale quests are fun.

    I think the quest should just be removed form the game. The design cannot be saved.

    Hmm. I am curious to know how you feel about Enter the Kobold..

  6. #66
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knobull View Post
    The AoE spells the end boss(es) cast (flame strike I think) damage the spiders. You can stand there and do nothing, the four spiders in the last room will die (in one shot).

    First time through the quest you have no idea this will happen, so when you see you have only accidentally killed one spider along the way, you think you will be fine. Not so. First time through (without reading the wiki for spoilers first), this is a very long quest. So you have spent an hour or more on a quest and fail it at the very end due to factors beyond your control that you could not have predicted. That is just plain sadistic, and not funny at all. It is quite offensive. Bad design, player losing design I would even say.

    The strategy of using two players in the end room, one very lightly or (un)armed to kite the spiders out of the room into the hall while the other player kills the end bosses would not be a documented (in the forums) strategy, if the end boss(es) did not damage the spiders.

    I simply refuse to attempt to play the quest anymore. (Having attempted it at least six times - experience.) If that means I will never get to play one of (the most) popular quests in the game (The Shroud), then so be it. I would pike it though, to get a chance to see what The Shroud is all about.

    The fact is the quest is completely unfun. I have no idea why people try to defend it. It is just awful. Like someone said earlier, it just sours the whole chain, and is quite disappointing as all the other vale quests are fun.

    I think the quest should just be removed form the game. The design cannot be saved.


    edit:


    I knew about the acid immunity, and the kiting, but not the use of web - good strategy. Thanks! (But not really helpful to a solo melee.)
    if you managed to make it to the end fight only killing 1 spider your first time in the quest with no spoilers, I would be impressed.
    Gary Gygax quotes

    The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience.

    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

    When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.

    The secret we should never let the game masters know is that they don't need any rules.

  7. #67
    Community Member Knobull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TankerWade View Post
    Also remember to clear all the tunnels that you can before reading the journal. Spiders killed before the journal is read do not count towards the five for failure.

    If you have a wiz/sorc cast flesh to stone on the spiders, then kill everything else.

    If I were to guess though I would bet that you are trying to solo it with a melee with glancing blows. Can be hard that way. Bring a longsword and shield and a hireling with Otto's.
    Yup, know about the clear the tunnels thing first (makes the sick joke at the end all the more unfunny). I've actually tried to run this quest naked, which does not really work out that well either.

    Quote Originally Posted by TankerWade View Post
    Hmm. I am curious to know how you feel about Enter the Kobold..
    I've completed that one several times. No sick joke in it that I recall. The maze is a bit of a pain, and the end fight is a bugger, but totally doable. I kind of like that end fight actually. No instant fail at the last second in that one that I recall, and if the end fight gets you, if you make the 5 minute mad rush back in time you can just keep on fighting for completion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    if you managed to make it to the end fight only killing 1 spider your first time in the quest with no spoilers, I would be impressed.
    That is exactly what happened my first time through, only to have the quest fail at the last second as I watch those four spiders get sizzled. I was crestfallen, completely nonplussed. Stopped playing the game for several weeks actually.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedHost View Post
    The end bosses do not deal damage to the spiders.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knobull View Post
    The AoE spells the end boss(es) cast (flame strike I think) damage the spiders. You can stand there and do nothing, the four spiders in the last room will die (in one shot).
    This is something that I have never seen in the hundreds of times I have run this quest.... Perhaps they changed something recently. But it seems hard to believe.

    EDIT: It seems that I was incorrect. It seems very strange that I have never seen them one-shot as described.
    Last edited by RedHost; 08-22-2014 at 12:14 AM.

  9. #69
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knobull View Post
    That is exactly what happened my first time through, only to have the quest fail at the last second as I watch those four spiders get sizzled. I was crestfallen, completely nonplussed. Stopped playing the game for several weeks actually.
    no fail Threnal might be more your speed if you cant handle failing a quest.
    Gary Gygax quotes

    The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience.

    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

    When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.

    The secret we should never let the game masters know is that they don't need any rules.

  10. #70
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knobull View Post
    I don't, the end boss(es) do.

    I have read everything there is to read on this quest. I am an expert on Let Sleeping Dust Lie. I have run it at least a half dozen times and not completed it. I will waste no more of my life on some developers sadistic joke. Occasionally I post LFMs asking to pike it, but so far none of these people who supposedly find it easy and fun have offered to run it for me.
    there are only 4 Spiders in the End fight.

    5 spiders must be killed in order to fail.

    Tell me again how your not killing spiders?

  11. #71
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedHost View Post
    This is something that I have never seen in the hundreds of times I have run this quest.... Perhaps they changed something recently. But it seems hard to believe.
    the end boss can AOE and kill spiders but, there are not enough to fail the quest if he does.

    to be safe its best to separate the boss from the spiders but, if none are killed during the quest then all the end spiders can be killed even by the player with no fail.

  12. #72
    Community Member Knobull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    no fail Threnal might be more your speed if you cant handle failing a quest.
    What exactly are you trying to say here?

    I have no problem failing a quest where the conditions are clearly defined and it is in a reasonable amount of time.

    They way I see Let Sleeping Dust Lie, it would be like Coyle only an hour long and friendly fire gets turned on in the last 30 seconds but you are never told. This is a valid comparison.

    I hate Let Sleeping Dust Lie with a passion. I love the rest of the game with a passion. Sorry if that makes me seem inadequate to you somehow. I don't mean to sully your awesomeness with my mediocrity.

  13. #73
    Community Member Knobull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxarhamar View Post
    there are only 4 Spiders in the End fight.

    5 spiders must be killed in order to fail.

    Tell me again how your not killing spiders?
    I already said it... here, I shall quote myself for your benefit...

    Quote Originally Posted by Knobull View Post
    First time through the quest you have no idea this will happen, so when you see you have only accidentally killed one spider along the way, you think you will be fine. Not so. First time through (without reading the wiki for spoilers first), this is a very long quest. So you have spent an hour or more on a quest and fail it at the very end due to factors beyond your control that you could not have predicted. That is just plain sadistic, and not funny at all. It is quite offensive. Bad design, player losing design I would even say.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    if you managed to make it to the end fight only killing 1 spider your first time in the quest with no spoilers, I would be impressed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knobull View Post
    That is exactly what happened my first time through, only to have the quest fail at the last second as I watch those four spiders get sizzled. I was crestfallen, completely nonplussed. Stopped playing the game for several weeks actually.
    That's how. The quest sucks. It spoils the chain and makes the raid inaccessible.

  14. #74
    Community Member Knobull's Avatar
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    I have beaten this horse sufficiently. It is not only dead, but horseburger at this point. My axe has been ground to a sliver. The thread has been thoroughly hijacked.

    I insist that Let Sleeping Dust Lie is a horrible quest. I shall defend that position no longer, you are all welcome to love it. I will still hate it.

    Carry on with discussion of the far less significant and (nonexistent) Coyle issue... It was never a problem for me, and I kind of like it as it was.

  15. #75
    2016 DDO Players Council UurlockYgmeov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varinon View Post
    This is the best change in the history of changes. Turbine shouldn't of done this, they won't ever be able to live up to it. Everything afterward will feel like a disappointment.

    This. THIS. THIS! is

    *loud crashing noise*

    *Muffled sounds*

    Halfling fell outta chair...

  16. #76
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    I've never had any issues with keeping Coyle alive and I've solo'd and run that quest as a group on a range of difficulties. Maybe I'm just lucky. When solo'ing I typically just get a healing hire and tell it to guard Coyle and try to pull the fight away from him.

    I have more of an issue with Derward in The Rescue. The amount of times he's run around a corner after being told to stay put and been one-shotted by Reavers is too damn high.

    Maybe I've just had weird luck.

    Increasing the XP for Hold For Reinforcements is a brilliant idea though.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knobull View Post
    I already said it... here, I shall quote myself for your benefit...
    What he means is what do you do to PREVENT spiders from dying *before* the end fight. Yes the 4 spider at the end can be killed by the bosses, and yes that can be a nasty surprise.
    But once you know that can happen, the solution is simple: do not kill ANY spiders before the end fight.
    As there's only 4 spiders there, they are no danger to your completion anymore.
    So, while we get that you really hate the quest, the question is, what are your tactics to avoid killing spiders before the end fight?
    That the quest is quite doable indeed is easily proven by the many, many Shrouds being run, so I can only assume it IS you doing something wrong.

    Greetz,
    Red Orm
    Will Cannith-craft (150 levels in all schools) for free on Khyber (mail Ninevrisei) if you provide the needed materials.

  18. #78
    Community Member MagicBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Easy button.
    See the other side of medal.

    Yes. It could seem an easy button. But it's only half.

    This change gives you the freedom to go for easy run or not. You can choose. If you wish more challenge (maybe in solo elite at level) keep Coyle alive. Otherwise run your chain lightly and kill him yourself (many people would love this option).

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Alright than. I can't wait for the responses.

    This isn't the right way to fix the Coyle problem. You just made the quest an auto win.
    I agree. Since Coyle was beffed up enough to allow players to react to damage he takes (as opposed to his basically getting one shot) the quest has been about right IMO. Personally, I think the Coyle problem was already fixed.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    I agree...

    but....

    I would make it so base XP stays as is, but keeping him alive adds a ton more. Maybe even adds extra loot.
    That way the quest becomes more friendly to do, but still has huge incentive to keep him alive.
    I'd give a completion if he dies, to move the chain along, but no xp or loot at all.

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