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  1. #21
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    OK, I get that people don't like Cocoon, and I respect that opinion. If you think Cocoon should be removed, that's a valid point of view. I'm not going to make an argument *for* Cocoon, but as long as its part of the game - and nothing suggests its going to change - then the game should reflect the fact that we have that ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabbler View Post
    If the playstyles enabled by those things are good in Epic, weaker versions of them would be good in Heroic too.
    The difference between Cocoon and Blitz, Energy Burst, Adrenaline, etc. is that all those things let you do damage. You can do damage in Heroic already, so that's not changing your playstyle. The Epic skills just let you do them better. Its not like the only way to do damage in Heroic is by throwing potions.

    There is no universal self-healing in Heroic. Potions are not a viable alternative...they're not boostable by Pos SP, primarily. Vendor ones don't heal for nearly enough by late Heroic, and Silver Flame pots aren't available to everyone. Scroll healing requires fully investing in UMD, which again locks out certain players/builds and forces you to build for Heroic in a way you might not want to for Epic.

    Its that dichotomy - the fact that an option for minimally adequate universal self healing just *doesn't exist* in Heroic, though it does in Epic - that I was trying to address.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    OK, I get that people don't like Cocoon, and I respect that opinion. If you think Cocoon should be removed, that's a valid point of view. I'm not going to make an argument *for* Cocoon, but as long as its part of the game - and nothing suggests its going to change - then the game should reflect the fact that we have that ability.



    The difference between Cocoon and Blitz, Energy Burst, Adrenaline, etc. is that all those things let you do damage. You can do damage in Heroic already, so that's not changing your playstyle. The Epic skills just let you do them better. Its not like the only way to do damage in Heroic is by throwing potions.

    There is no universal self-healing in Heroic. Potions are not a viable alternative...they're not boostable by Pos SP, primarily. Vendor ones don't heal for nearly enough by late Heroic, and Silver Flame pots aren't available to everyone. Scroll healing requires fully investing in UMD, which again locks out certain players/builds and forces you to build for Heroic in a way you might not want to for Epic.

    Its that dichotomy - the fact that an option for minimally adequate universal self healing just *doesn't exist* in Heroic, though it does in Epic - that I was trying to address.
    Just because it's in epic doesn't equal we need it heroic and we don't need universal self-healing in heroic it's not available in. Pnp and don't say you don't face as many monsters in pnp because while that's true you can't cast near as many spells carry as many weapons or won't even have the amount of resources unless your gm is a dude named Monty-haul. Heroic is so easy for even a first lifer want you ask for is neither needed or desirable except by a few


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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    Just because it's in epic doesn't equal we need it heroic and we don't need universal self-healing in heroic it's not available in. Pnp and don't say you don't face as many monsters in pnp because while that's true you can't cast near as many spells carry as many weapons or won't even have the amount of resources unless your gm is a dude named Monty-haul. Heroic is so easy for even a first lifer want you ask for is neither needed or desirable except by a few
    I doubt there's EVER been a PnP GM who's come close to Turbine in terms of Monty Haul!

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Its that dichotomy - the fact that an option for minimally adequate universal self healing just *doesn't exist* in Heroic, though it does in Epic - that I was trying to address.
    1. There already exists a heroic feat that provides magical healing regardless of class. It's called the Jorasco Mark of Healing, and fixing it should take priority over any new feats. (The glaring problem is that the Dragonmark healing's cost is in charges while Bladeforged healing is in spellpoints)

    2. Players should be able to get minimally adequate self-healing without spending any feats. Sell a Magic Bandage in vendors which takes 3 seconds to apply and which grants 15 ticks of healing based on a Heal check, ending if you do damage or take damage.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabbler View Post
    1. There already exists a heroic feat that provides magical healing regardless of class. It's called the Jorasco Mark of Healing, and fixing it should take priority over any new feats. (The glaring problem is that the Dragonmark healing's cost is in charges while Bladeforged healing is in spellpoints)

    2. Players should be able to get minimally adequate self-healing without spending any feats. Sell a Magic Bandage in vendors which takes 3 seconds to apply and which grants 15 ticks of healing based on a Heal check, ending if you do damage or take damage.
    Umm hell no the first has been fixed in that you no longer need to,use 3 feats to top it out and the second is just a bad idea and not needed


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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    Umm hell no the first has been fixed in that you no longer need to,use 3 feats to top it out and the second is just a bad idea and not needed
    The 1st has been buffed - I wouldn't say fixed as it's still a weak dragonmark comparatively.

    The 2nd has been asked for 1000 times but the Devs did make the Heal skill actually useful a few updates ago and I doubt they'll go any further with it.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabbler View Post
    1. There already exists a heroic feat that provides magical healing regardless of class. It's called the Jorasco Mark of Healing, and fixing it should take priority over any new feats. (The glaring problem is that the Dragonmark healing's cost is in charges while Bladeforged healing is in spellpoints)

    2. Players should be able to get minimally adequate self-healing without spending any feats. Sell a Magic Bandage in vendors which takes 3 seconds to apply and which grants 15 ticks of healing based on a Heal check, ending if you do damage or take damage.
    DMs aren't universal, either, of course. And I'd be fine with a vendor-sold consumable that provided the same ultimate effect - I thought a Feat would be a little more opportunity cost, honestly.

  8. #28
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    Can we not just get potions of cure crit or something?

    I know I know, potions < 3rd level spells... but I'd MUCH prefer if there needs to be more 'universally available' self healing that it came in consumable form.

    Also, I fundamentally disagree that:

    • Self healing is a major part of every build
    • That something being fun in Epic means bringing that epic feature to heroic will also be fun
    • That all the self healing available to epic and heroic characters right now is 'fun' to begin with


    More self healing would be BAD for the game, just like it has been BAD for the game for 'self-reliance' to have gone as far as it has already gone.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I thought a Feat would be a little more opportunity cost, honestly.
    An opportunity cost isn't needed (beyond plat + inventory + 3 seconds activation). The baseline for comparison is a Cleric hireling, which provides over 15000 healing for under 500 plat. (More than 100 times as cost effective as CSW potions, and superior in hp-per-second and casting time too)

    The problem with using hirelings to convert plat into healing is that they're unusable if your group is full of actual players, so someone who comes to rely on them is strongly discouraged from playing with other people. That's understandably very bad, and why it is important to sell a plat item which gives cost-effective healing. (To avoid infringing on classes with healing features, that item shouldn't be reliable during combat)


    Quote Originally Posted by dunklezhan View Post
    Can we not just get potions of cure crit or something?
    Crit potions wouldn't really be a solution, as they're only marginally stronger than Serious potions but would be exponentially more expensive. And buffing potions up with much better numbers (cheaper cost + more hp healed) isn't acceptable either, because then they infringe too much on actual healing abilities by characters.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabbler View Post

    Crit potions wouldn't really be a solution, as they're only marginally stronger than Serious potions but would be exponentially more expensive. And buffing potions up with much better numbers (cheaper cost + more hp healed) isn't acceptable either, because then they infringe too much on actual healing abilities by characters.
    I've no idea if they'd be a solution or not, because I fail to see a problem that needs one to begin with... what I meant was: if we absolutely MUST have yet more self healing, can't we do it via providing another level of potions or other consumable that everyone can get access to, rather than making it a build choice and essentially creating another 'toughness' feat that becomes mandatory, effectively reducing build choices. I am perfectly happy NOT introducing another healing option, at any level of the game, and further, I'd be in favour of limiting it severely in the epic levels too.
    Last edited by dunklezhan; 08-23-2014 at 05:06 PM.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunklezhan View Post
    essentially creating another 'toughness' feat that becomes mandatory, effectively reducing build choices.
    Uh...POWER ATTACK!

    Cleave, Great Cleave!

    Improved Crit for whatever weapon you're using!

    Maximize, Quicken!

    Point Blank Shot!

    Literally every class and build has its list of must take Feats!

    Some are so feat starved that they literally have NO CHOICE whatsoever and therefore every single member of that class has the exact same Feats!!!

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    There is no universal self-healing in Heroic. Potions are not a viable alternative...they're not boostable by Pos SP, primarily. Vendor ones don't heal for nearly enough by late Heroic, and Silver Flame pots aren't available to everyone. Scroll healing requires fully investing in UMD, which again locks out certain players/builds and forces you to build for Heroic in a way you might not want to for Epic.

    Its that dichotomy - the fact that an option for minimally adequate universal self healing just *doesn't exist* in Heroic, though it does in Epic - that I was trying to address.
    Universal self healing shouldn't exist in any difficulty, the fact that it does in epic via a tier 1 twist is a mistake.

    Simply put, there are enough different sources of healing to allow any class / race combo to be self sufficient in heroic. If a player can't viably heal their way through heroics it's through a lack of knowledge or a decision to be incapable of doing so.

    D&D isn't about what's universal and it never should be. Any ability or item that is "universal" in a D&D game is so because it's over powered.

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    OK, I get that people don't like Cocoon, and I respect that opinion. If you think Cocoon should be removed, that's a valid point of view. I'm not going to make an argument *for* Cocoon, but as long as its part of the game - and nothing suggests its going to change - then the game should reflect the fact that we have that ability.
    For me personally, I like cocoon and think it should remain unchanged in the epic levels. Just to offer context on where I'm coming from.

    There is no universal self-healing in Heroic. Potions are not a viable alternative...they're not boostable by Pos SP, primarily. Vendor ones don't heal for nearly enough by late Heroic, and Silver Flame pots aren't available to everyone. Scroll healing requires fully investing in UMD, which again locks out certain players/builds and forces you to build for Heroic in a way you might not want to for Epic.

    Its that dichotomy - the fact that an option for minimally adequate universal self healing just *doesn't exist* in Heroic, though it does in Epic - that I was trying to address.
    Yes there is universal self-healing in heroics. They are called potions. Just because you don't feel they are viable doesn't mean they don't exist. Anyone who simply can't get by with cure serious is free to grind out silver flame favor.

    There is no need for any new Lesser Cocoon ability in heroic levels. Heroic level healing is available for any build who cares to pursue it. So: /not signed

  14. #34
    Hopeless Romantic dunklezhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Uh...POWER ATTACK!

    Cleave, Great Cleave!

    Improved Crit for whatever weapon you're using!

    Maximize, Quicken!

    Point Blank Shot!

    Literally every class and build has its list of must take Feats!

    Some are so feat starved that they literally have NO CHOICE whatsoever and therefore every single member of that class has the exact same Feats!!!

    And any of that is a reason to add another such feat because...?
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  15. #35
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    Rejuv Cocoon is pretty broken. If a "lesser" version were to made a feat, it would be nearly as ubiquitous as Toughness used to be, and that's not a good thing. In addition, your suggestion is worded in such a way that 10SP can bring you to max HP if you wait long enough without getting in a fight. Besides, Cocoon isn't needed in Heroics. Pots, scrolls, wands, and hires do well enough at that level that a halfway competent player can complete.
    Last edited by Merlin-ator; 08-24-2014 at 12:34 AM.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin-ator View Post
    Rejuv Cocoon is pretty broken. If a "lesser" version were to made a feat, it would be nearly as ubiquitous as Toughness used to be, and that's not a good thing. In addition, your suggestion is worded in such a way that 10SP can bring you to max HP if you wait long enough without getting in a fight. Besides, Cocoon isn't needed in Heroics. Pots, scrolls, wands, and hires do well enough at that level that a halfway competent player can complete.
    Would it be? Which of your 7-8 Heroic feats would you give up for it? For melee, its not going to be one of your 3 Weapon Style feats, nor IC. Great Cleave? Improved Shield Mastery?

    Scrolls and wands are not universal, they require class levels and/or full investment in UMD. Hires are, if you want to rely on their spotty AI and frequent tendency to commit suicide (plus they increase your dungeon scaling). And CSW pots max out at +29 health, I don't see how chugging 10 after every fight is considered a "viable" option for universal self-healing.

  17. #37

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    how about a scroll of lesser cocoon? One that combines vigor and aid/false life. Available with 75 House J favor. UMD necessary, but not too high
    It will have a niche use in trap mitigation, anyway
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