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  1. #1
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Default Tinkerhell: The Uncentered Artichucker



    Halfling
    12Artificer/5Rogue/3Monk
    Primary Destiny: Shiradi/Divine Crusader and Legendary Dreadnought.

    I am getting ready to TR out of this build now that I've played it at cap for while so it's time to post the build up here on the DDO forums. This is my favorite throwing build so far, but it's definitely an advanced build. I use a lot of really good end game gear, and it 3x Doubleshot PL's adds a great deal to this build. The idea with this build was to make up for the stupid changes to throwing that made so many good proc effects from off hands items stop working. This one uses Glass Cannon or Tovens for huge proc damage/shuriken additions, as well as high double-strike to avoid being centered and worry about Ki and 10k. You do get extra shuriken procs from Ninja Spy however when you're uncentered.


    Feats Level order is: 1 Rogue/3 Monk/12 Arty/4 Rogue
    Heroic:
    1. PA
    2. Monk: Shuriken Expertise
    3. Cleave Monk: Dodge
    6. Extend
    8. Arty 4: Point Blank Shot
    9. Rapid Shot
    12. Precision Arty 8: Precision
    15. Quickdraw
    16. Arty 12: IPS
    18. IC Thrown
    Epic:
    21.GCleave
    24. OC
    27.Blinding Speed/Epic Reflex
    28.DoubleShot

    Sources of DoubleShot
    Mechanic Capstone: 10%
    DoubleShot Epic PL: 9%
    DoubleShot Epic Feat: 10%
    DC Epic Moment: ~16% Average (25.5% Average Doubleshot 5/8ths of the time)
    Situational
    Divine Crusader/Enhancement: 10% (CC Stacks)-15%(off hand bastard sword, First Blood or 14% from Sickle from 3BC)
    Killer: 25%

    (Average) Totals --
    Permanent: 45%
    Semi-Permanent: 55% (Celestial Champion with 10 stacks)
    Trash Killing: 80% DoubleShot (If you train Killer instead of No Mercy)

    Or
    Shiradi
    Mechanic Capstone: 10%
    DoubleShot Epic PL: 9%
    DoubleShot Epic Feat: 10%
    Enhancement (Devourers Reaping/First Blood): 14%/15% or a little less with 6% Offhand, or Ring, or 8% From Bracers

    (Average) Totals --
    Permanent: 44%
    Option:
    Trash Killing: 69% DoubleShot (If you train Killer instead of No Mercy)


    Enhancements:
    16 Halfling for +1 Crit Threat, 2 Dex, Saves, Dex to Damage with Shuris
    33 Mechanic for 10% Doubleshot, 2 Dex, +3 UMD, Wracking Shot, whatever
    7 Ninja Spy for T1/T2 Core (extra Shuriken, dex to damage, 2 Dodge)
    23 TA Shadow Dodge, 1 Dex, No Mercy
    1 Shintao 5% Hamp 10 PosSP
    -------
    80 AP

    Offhand: Glass Cannon, First Blood, Toven's Hammer, etc. LOTS of extra proc damage (20-30 per shuriken)

    Armor would be 2d6 SA damage light Shadow Armor if you aren't worried about losing a few Dodge points for the extra SA dice. Otherwise Shadowscale or Cormyrian Red Scale. BlackDragon if you're not using a Dragon's Edge shuriken for some reason and need Armor-Piercing.

    Advantages over other shuriken builds:
    -15-20 Crits (In Divine Crusader),
    -x3 on 19-20 from OC which provides quite a nice Physical damage boost.?*
    -45% Permanent Doubleshot roughly equivalent for most builds to 10k?* (in any Destiny), situationally quite a bit higher in DC or with Killer trained.
    -High SA damage (3d6 Rogue, 2d6 Shadow Armor, 2-3D6 Halfling, 2-3D6 Assassin)
    -Arty Buffs (Elemental Weapons, Extended Self Cast Tensers or Long Scrolls)
    -Increased Buff times from Arty on clickies/scrolls
    -Weird healing in Divine Crusader
    -Excellent trap skills and UMD
    -Ability to use very high damage off hand items like First Blood for 15% Doublestrike, or Glass Cannon or Tovens for ~18-23 Damage/star compared to Celestia at a much lower 6 or 7 damage/star.

    Disadvantages from Meteor Shower Rev. 1/2:
    -Non Permanent Tensers, but close to it (2:30 per cast extended I think).
    -Slightly lower PRR (none from EK tree)
    -Slightly lower Dodge due to differing enhancements
    -Very slightly lower Dex, moreso in Divine Crusader. In Shiradi it's within a couple points due to ED Dexterity.
    -Lower Movement speed (though this is easily made up in Mechanic with Leg Shot which slows all but purple names, which is amazing).

    I currently run in Shiradi most of the time, and it is amazing.

    28 Stats/ED (Convo/Parrying on in SS instead of Dumathoins, switch based on quest). No Fail on 1 Reflex and Fort.

  2. #2
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    Default

    Nice--had been wondering about an arti rogue monk split. I had been thinking of also some melee options with the SWF line and Celestia for glancing blows.

    But...Tinkerhell? A Disney reference?

    I heard u23 is changing some of the reqs for OC--is it just Str then that is not needed?
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  3. #3
    Community Member Greantun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saekee View Post
    Nice--had been wondering about an arti rogue monk split. I had been thinking of also some melee options with the SWF line and Celestia for glancing blows.

    But...Tinkerhell? A Disney reference?

    I heard u23 is changing some of the reqs for OC--is it just Str then that is not needed?
    U23 is removing the STR, Cleave and Great Cleave prereqs for Overwhelming Critical. All you will have to have now is some form of Improved Critical.

  4. #4
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greantun View Post
    U23 is removing the STR, Cleave and Great Cleave prereqs for Overwhelming Critical. All you will have to have now is some form of Improved Critical.
    Hey thanks thays great news! I wasnt sure how they were changing the reqs yet. Once thats finalized ill post up an update with 3 new shiny feats and 6 starting strength

  5. #5
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Ah i guess this is the build you were talking about when i recommended to you the Doublestrike Sickle in your Meteor2 thread. Good build to take for an artificer past life with a shuriken thrower. Its a nice idea to go for a high Doubleshot chance even though i think 10k star builds are still more effective since there are so many sources for WIS that you can boost it through the roof and those builds still benefit also from Doubleshot (even though only 25%). Also by being uncentered you loose all the stance bonuses from monks over centered builds which in case of wind stance is another +4 DEX for 8% shuriken proc chance and +4 damage and +2 Reflex. But of course not everybody likes to manage Ki.

    I'm a bit confused though. First you list a lot of Doublestrike bonuses and the enhanced crit range from Divine Crusader and then in the last sentence you say that you run mostly in Shiradi where you loose all those bonuses. Also you say in the above text that the build uses Glass Cannon and Tovens for high damage procs and then list the Doubleshot bonuses from First Blood and the Sickle.

    So if i understand this correctly you can either choose Divine Crusader with higher Doublestrike chance, full BAB without Tenser's and enhanced crit range but you loose up to 6 DEX (and thus additional shuriken chance and damage) from Shiradi and have to twist Whirling Wrists and Cocoon along with Pin/Whistler/Sense Weakness - or choose Shiradi for less Doublestrike, less crit range, more DEX, better helpless CC and having to scroll/cast Tenser's for full BAB

    And also you have to choose between Doublestrike or additional damage on your offhand weapon.


    So the Doublestrike bonus comes down to a permanent
    31% (Epic PL, Epic Feat, Mechanic capstone, ship buff) - you forgot to list the 2% from the guild airship buff

    +14/15% if Sickle/First Blood (but excludes +10% CC stacks from DC since they are the same bonus type) OR bonus damage from Glass Cannon
    +16% DC epic moment (or up to +26% if you chose Glass Cannon) but loosing 12% proc chance and 3 damage from loosing +6 DEX from Shiradi
    up to +25% Doublestrike vs. trash from killer but loosing No Mercy trash damage


    So if you choose Glass Cannon, Shiradi and No Mercy you are down to 31% Doublestrike bonus and 17-20 crit range and in any case loose +8% shuriken proc chance and +4 damage from not having wind stance. Is that worth it?

    To me it looks like Divine Crusader would probably be the better choice especially vs. boss monsters and undead/constructs and with the powerful Tier 2 and 3 TF on-crit effects so after testing the build extensively: which ones do you think are the best/your recommended choices for the build and why (especially why do you mostly play in shiradi)?
    Last edited by Firewall; 08-15-2014 at 08:51 PM.
    Shuricannon 2.0 Drow 20 Monk Thrower for DPS, Nethercannon Shadar-Kai 15 Pal/3 Monk/2 Rog Thrower for Past Lifes
    Shiradi Shuricannon Drow 20 Monk Thrower for Defense, Shiradi Warcannon Warforged 11 Wiz/6 Monk/3 Rog Thrower...Throwers for the win

  6. #6
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    Ah i guess this is the build you were talking about when i recommended to you the Doublestrike Sickle in your Meteor2 thread. Good build to take for an artificer past life with a shuriken thrower. Its a nice idea to go for a high Doubleshot chance even though i think 10k star builds are still more effective since there are so many sources for WIS that you can boost it through the roof and those builds still benefit also from Doubleshot (even though only 25%). Also by being uncentered you loose all the stance bonuses from monks over centered builds which in case of wind stance is another +4 DEX for 8% shuriken proc chance and +4 damage and +2 Reflex. But of course not everybody likes to manage Ki.

    I'm a bit confused though. First you list a lot of Doublestrike bonuses and the enhanced crit range from Divine Crusader and then in the last sentence you say that you run mostly in Shiradi where you loose all those bonuses. Also you say in the above text that the build uses Glass Cannon and Tovens for high damage procs and then list the Doubleshot bonuses from First Blood and the Sickle.

    So if i understand this correctly you can either choose Divine Crusader with higher Doublestrike chance, full BAB without Tenser's and enhanced crit range but you loose up to 6 DEX (and thus additional shuriken chance and damage) from Shiradi and have to twist Whirling Wrists and Cocoon along with Pin/Whistler/Sense Weakness - or choose Shiradi for less Doublestrike, less crit range, more DEX, better helpless CC and having to scroll/cast Tenser's for full BAB

    And also you have to choose between Doublestrike or additional damage on your offhand weapon.


    So the Doublestrike bonus comes down to a permanent
    31% (Epic PL, Epic Feat, Mechanic capstone, ship buff) - you forgot to list the 2% from the guild airship buff

    +14/15% if Sickle/First Blood (but excludes +10% CC stacks from DC since they are the same bonus type) OR bonus damage from Glass Cannon
    +16% DC epic moment (or up to +26% if you chose Glass Cannon) but loosing 12% proc chance and 3 damage from loosing +6 DEX from Shiradi
    up to +25% Doublestrike vs. trash from killer but loosing No Mercy trash damage


    So if you choose Glass Cannon, Shiradi and No Mercy you are down to 31% Doublestrike bonus and 17-20 crit range and in any case loose +8% shuriken proc chance and +4 damage from not having wind stance. Is that worth it?

    To me it looks like Divine Crusader would probably be the better choice especially vs. boss monsters and undead/constructs and with the powerful Tier 2 and 3 TF on-crit effects so after testing the build extensively: which ones do you think are the best/your recommended choices for the build and why (especially why do you mostly play in shiradi)?
    With battlerager harness I i run Shiradi and Rune Arm full time.

    The bonus to damage from doubleshot isn't as important compared to higher dex or more proc damage in my damage equations, so I generally always have Rune Arm equipped. I can get 8% Doubleshot if I lose 1 dex by not wearing Duma's and wearing Skirmishers. Or I can wear a 7% Doubleshot (Spearblock VII and Blue) Robe I pulled. Or I can just swap in Battleragers, take a hit, and switch back to con/false life item. 19 Proc damage from Rune Arm is really high. '

    And I've done the math on 10k, I've had my wisdom as high as 50 on my 12/5/3, there's a screenshot. It's not real sustainable and anyway it's still only equivilent to about 50% fulltime Doubleshot. And the difference between 40% Doubleshot and 50% doulbeshot isn't as big as you think. Do the math, you'll see.

    Until you have a multiplier of x3 or better fulltime, proc damage on these builds outpaces physical damage pretty handily.

    Wind Stance is not +4 Damage, it's +2 Dex, because I'm not taking any extra feats in stances. Even if I took GM stances, it would be 4 dex, not not 4 Damage. It's 2 damage and 4% for each shuriken proc chance. But, overall contribution to damage at 70 dex (my base dex in this build without temp sources) is around .83% damage per dex point. So those 4 Dex points =3.32% damage loss, and that's without Doubleshot chance taken into account. It's really around 3%. See below.



    The trade off is 19 proc damage per shuriken from a Rune Arm.

    My spreadsheet where I take

    Base Damage (including crit/seeker power)
    SA Damage
    Proc Damage (including on crits)

    x

    RoF (1 Base Animation + Dex*.01 + Dex*.01 +Doubleshot *.01) or for 10k Build the equivalent Doubleshot for Wisdom/10k Value.

    This build is 1 + .7 + .7 = 2.4 + X where X is equal to whatever equipment choice I make for Enchantment source Doubleshot. But, doubleshot on this build, because of the 3 independant chances for a Shuriken already is really only worth about .4% per 1% doubleshot increase, total DPS. This is also why 10K stars is actually not nearly as powerful as most people mistakenly think it is on a 3x Shuriken chance build. Doubleshot and 10k should be invested in last, after Dexterity.

    x

    Thrown Animations/Second

    =

    has this build at end game gearing with buffs is about 12% higher Damage/Second than my Dark Stars build.


    The only other thrower build I've been able to find mathematically doing more damage is is a Bard/Ranger/Rogue Split that would need to scroll Tensers. Without the fix to SWB crit multi for x3, this build is equivalent to Tinkerhell. if they fix the crit multi, it pulls ahead pretty handily making it the highest Thrown DPS I can calculate.

    Anyway, against Red/Purple names, Divine Crusader might be a little bit better, and it has healing so you could save a twist. But in anything where you have to kill trash, the ability to make things helpless in Shiradi and the Dexterity it offers are just too powerful. With killer and sense weakness coupled to Pin, Whistle, Nerve Venom, and Mortal Fear, even on EE at level 28 I kill almost any trash with this build within 4 throw animations. Undead being the only exception to that, but even then it's like 6 animations, which takes about 3.8 seconds, at .68 seconds/Throw animation. Shiradi makes quests far faster than Divine Crusader. With a x3 Crit mulitplier DC might be more compelling.

  7. #7
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Before anyone asks I'll just post it:

    with ideal gear and basic buffs but nothing crazy like store pots or cookies, my builds DPS are:

    737 Dmg/Throw for Dark Stars
    806 Dmg/Throw for Tinkerhell

    .68 Seconds/Throw=1.47 Throws/Second

    Total DPS, on non-helpless mob susceptible to SA = 1185 Damage/Second for Tinkerhell. 1076 Damage/Second for Dark Stars.



    *Note, this assumes all elemental procs are doing damage, and mobs fort can be overcome (with Grim Precision, Precision, Dragons Edge, and either Wracking shot 50%, Weaken Construct, or Weaken Undead from Mournlode armor which I wear in Undead quests). It DOES NOT take into account the damage from Mortal Fear 5% procs, only the Force damage proc).

    **These are averages, of course, like all DPS calcs.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    The only other thrower build I've been able to find mathematically doing more damage is is a Bard/Ranger/Rogue Split that would need to scroll Tensers. Without the fix to SWB crit multi for x3, this build is equivalent to Tinkerhell. if they fix the crit multi, it pulls ahead pretty handily making it the highest Thrown DPS I can calculate.
    Are you looking at auto attack dps, or doing attack rotations such as sniper/aimed shot? Or Pin/Whistler/CDG combos? Adding in the effects of manyshot in rotation? Or adrenaline? My experience was that bard/ranger/x is king, but I haven't mathed it out like I used to for druid. Too much math

  9. #9
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    The bonus to damage from doubleshot isn't as important compared to higher dex or more proc damage in my damage equations, so I generally always have Rune Arm equipped.
    I was just surprised since you emphasize all the doubleshot bonuses in your post and finally state that you run in shiradi with a rune arm equipped so you don't actually use most of them.

    And I've done the math on 10k, I've had my wisdom as high as 50 on my 12/5/3, there's a screenshot. It's not real sustainable and anyway it's still only equivilent to about 50% fulltime Doubleshot. And the difference between 40% Doubleshot and 50% doulbeshot isn't as big as you think. Do the math, you'll see. (...)this build at end game gearing with buffs is about 12% higher Damage/Second than my Dark Stars build.
    Yes i saw your screenshot of the Meteor with 50 WIS in Wind Stance. Not sure what bonuses and items this included so probably you can boost it even higher. I'm not questioning your statement, i'm just curious what makes your centered Dark Stars build having 12% less DPS than this build.

    I agree 10% difference in proc chance is not a big difference but in my calculations 10k stars at 50 WIS should give you a +64% full-time chance to throw shuriken (128% during 10k) according to the formula in DDOWiki. Add to that 5% Doubleshot (=25% of Feat, Epic PL, Ship Buff) and 4-8% chance depending on the Tier of Wind Stance (i think Dark Stars uses Master Stance so +6%) and we are looking at a 73-77% chance to throw shuriken for Dark Stars or any other centered 10k star build.

    That becomes even higher in Divine Crusader because due to the increasing return with higher WIS in 10k stars you add a 12% chance for a total of +85-89% when going from 50 to 56 WIS and thus making up for the loss of 6 DEX from shiradi (at least in shuriken procs, not in bonus damage) and you still get some bonuses to Doubleshot from Celestial Champion and Zeal of the Righteous. In DC Tinkerhell looses 12% chance from DEX but compensates that with some better bonus from ZotR but gets no bonus from CC.

    I agree 56 WIS is not really sustainable but WIS potions easily last through boss fights and i suppose 50 WIS in DC should be sustainable permanently and the Doubleshot bonus from Battlerager is not really permanent either and letting yourself being hit from an EE boss or monster to get the buff might not always be the wisest choice.


    So if this build is 12% ahead in damage it has to be from the added procs but i'm not sure 19 damage from glass cannon, 2d6 SA damage from armor and 1d6 from elemental weapons cover that difference especially since most of this damage is situational. Also your Meteors have perma Tensers whereas this build has to cast or scroll it. What am i missing?


    I noted you don't take Crippling Flames (vs. non-fire immune bosses) or Burning Emptiness (vs. Fire immune bosses) into account in your DPS formula. Not sure if you take the bleeding damage from Dragon's Edge into account. If you would i think DC should be even further ahead in DPS against bosses with the higher crit range. Also in DC you do 2d6+2 damage per hit against undead which can be very nice. I think since Mortal Fear trash mobs are really a non-issue and helplessness does not work against many end-game monsters. Even in DC you can twist Pin/Whistler and have No Mercy for high damage if needed.


    Wind Stance is not +4 Damage, it's +2 Dex, because I'm not taking any extra feats in stances. Even if I took GM stances, it would be 4 dex, not not 4 Damage.
    Yes +4 damage was a typo on my part. It's +2 damage in Grandmaster of course.
    Last edited by Firewall; 08-16-2014 at 04:33 AM.
    Shuricannon 2.0 Drow 20 Monk Thrower for DPS, Nethercannon Shadar-Kai 15 Pal/3 Monk/2 Rog Thrower for Past Lifes
    Shiradi Shuricannon Drow 20 Monk Thrower for Defense, Shiradi Warcannon Warforged 11 Wiz/6 Monk/3 Rog Thrower...Throwers for the win

  10. #10
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Disadvantages from Meteor Shower Rev. 1/2:
    (...)
    -Very slightly lower Dex, moreso in Divine Crusader. In Shiradi it's within a couple points due to ED Dexterity.
    I missed this part until now. This would be in favor of the Dark Stars build too. I noticed in your screenshot you have a DEX of 71 whereas in your Meteor build screenie you showed a DEX of 85 and stated you could get even more with it. What is the actual difference in DEX then between Meteor/Dark Stars and Tinkerhell?

    Feats Level order is: 1 Rogue/3 Monk/12 Arty/4 Rogue
    Heroic:
    (...)
    12. Precision Arty 8: Precision
    I suppose one of those is meant to be Precise Shot?
    Shuricannon 2.0 Drow 20 Monk Thrower for DPS, Nethercannon Shadar-Kai 15 Pal/3 Monk/2 Rog Thrower for Past Lifes
    Shiradi Shuricannon Drow 20 Monk Thrower for Defense, Shiradi Warcannon Warforged 11 Wiz/6 Monk/3 Rog Thrower...Throwers for the win

  11. #11
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    I missed this part until now. This would be in favor of the Dark Stars build too. I noticed in your screenshot you have a DEX of 71 whereas in your Meteor build screenie you showed a DEX of 85 and stated you could get even more with it. What is the actual difference in DEX then between Meteor/Dark Stars and Tinkerhell?



    I suppose one of those is meant to be Precise Shot?
    Traveling internationally so wont really be able to respond indepth for a while.

    Dex diff is 1 from level ups (goes to strength for OC, will change next update)
    3 from no wind stance

    About 4 total. Potentially 5 if depending on if you take Great Dex or GMForms

    Everything else is temporary and available to both builds. (Card Pot, Yugo Pot, House D pot, Bard Song, cant remeber which stack. Original picture had great dex and GM stance
    I think, plus all those buffs. Picture above is basically just how i run around included Tensers (self cast 2:30 duration).

  12. #12
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    Im thinking about Tr'ing to this kind of build for an Arty life since I have had 3 shuriken lives now and have lots of good gear. Im assuming since the OC change that PA, Cleave and Great Cleave are no longer taken with this build? What would you recommended in place of those? Maybe empower for some improved healing? More HP? Dragon Marks for healing? Any thoughts anyone? Thanks all.

  13. #13
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    Is Wis a dump stat on this build, since there is no 10k?

    Was thinking maybe taking Force of Personality and getting those Will saves up.

    Dragon Marks may not be a good idea Im guessing, since the rest of it is in enhancements and I would have to give up some things to grab the Dragonmarks?

    Also wasnt sure about starting stats and skills. Im guessing since not centered and no 10K, the only really important stats would be Dex, Con, Charisma, and Int?

    Im assuming 36 point build

    S- dump
    D- 20
    C- 16
    I- 12
    W- Dump
    Ch- 14

    all levels into Dex

    Skills- Balance,1 in tumble, UMD, spot, search, disable and open lock? Any skill really important that Im missing, I will have extra skill points to spend Im guessing?

    Charisma at 14 for UMD and Force of Personality, if its viable feat on this build. Int 12 and full trap skills should be able to hit most, if not all traps with right gear?

    I have +6 tomes in all stats, so strength will only be an issue early on. I have +4 or+3 to most of those important skills but have access to a few more ( thanks anniversary cards) if I need to boost anything.

    I crafted a blinding, paralyzing Thunderforged shuriken, with Devotion and armor piercing Kama for the off hand. I have been using this gear on a Thrower that doesnt get backstab damage and it still works great. lots of para and blind procs, Im guessing on this build the auto backstab once they are blinded will be very nice. But wasnt sure if it works that way, it says once blinded they are vulnerable to backstab damage, so im guessing I will get it.

    I do have 2 other TF stars with the typical set up ( 1st degree and dragons edge I think)

    Thanks anyone who can point me in the right direction
    Last edited by bigdmag; 12-05-2014 at 08:31 PM.

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