Page 1 of 18 1234511 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 360

Thread: Pay to "win"

  1. #1
    Community Member Oliphant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    774

    Default Pay to "win"

    Why are some things repeatedly called out as p2w and other things are not? If you pay $50 for a fraction of a past life, it appears that is pay to win. But is that really winning?

    What about tomes of learning and monster manuals? Ultimately these provide more xp benefits and are much more affordable but I haven't seen people call these out as p2w.

    What about epic destinies? I guess that's more pay to play, but I rarely see EDs even get called out as pay to play.

    It seems like the line is when it becomes a rip off. If you buy expensive stuff that doesn't really pay off, it's p2w.
    Please consider the environment before printing this post

  2. #2
    Community Member Nayus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    1,273

    Default

    Mindless XP farming is just mindless XP grinding, an otto's box does nothing but saving your time. You might need to work, study, hang out with friends and you don't want to waste your precious gaming-time leveling useless EDs.

    Now, could you heal 400+ points of damage in a pure Fighter as a SLA?

  3. #3
    Community Member Oliphant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    774

    Default

    So paying not to play then. I'm selling that for half price today. Send me $25 and then don't play when you have something going on like studying or barbecues.
    Please consider the environment before printing this post

  4. #4
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    2,765

    Default

    Achieving your goals quicker by paying can be regarded as winning, or at least, winning faster.

  5. #5
    Community Member THOTHdha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    461

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oliphant View Post
    Why are some things repeatedly called out as p2w and other things are not? **snip** What about tomes of learning and monster manuals?
    Ultimately, you are still actively playing when you get any Tome of Learning or Monster Manual bonus. Not just duping items and *Charlie Sheen grin* WINNING!

    What about epic destinies? I guess that's more pay to play, but I rarely see EDs even get called out as pay to play.
    DDO had the original player-first Pay to Play Fremium buisness model, so why would anyone 'call them out' on it? If you want access to content, then you need to buy it. The costs are very reasonable. And while Turbine may have made substantial diversions from their originally professed business model, Epic Destinies can hardly be called one of them. If anything point out the massive internal inconsistencies between EDs and how they have forced players into a very specific sort of play, but calling them out as a 'P2W' progression is just silly when put along side things like Tomes of Fate and such.

  6. #6
    Community Member tralfaz81's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    767

    Default

    Some of these things I don't think were made to be p2w, I think it was more of an attempt to level the playing field. You have players who only have a few hours a week who can use these items so they don't fall too far behind the people who can play 8 hours a day. I think its a great idea in theory. Like most theories I think it doesn't always work in practice, but I never really saw the boxes as blatant p2w.

    Personally I think they're too expensive, but thats me. Given the choice I've always taken the newest bump to stat tomes over boxes cause it seems like a much better investment - something that keeps helping your toon from then on out vs something that cuts the grind time down of a single life.
    "Shut up and die like a wizard"

  7. #7
    Community Member relenttless's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    uk
    Posts
    695

    Default

    Oh perleaze.... There is no pay to win, its a myth started by whiney vets.... There is no win either for that matter.

    Got VIP? must be pay to win
    Got all the packs premium? Must be pay to win
    Got ed's? Must be pay to win
    Got enough time to sit on your butt playing computer games? Must be pay to win.

    The whole notion is garbage.
    "IM-PLO-SION: For when you just HAVE to kill every M**********R in the room"-
    (Samuel L Jackson)

    "Some are insane, and the're in charge"
    (GoF)

    Sarlona: Mercilless, Maliciouss, Relenttless. Plus others.....

  8. #8
    Community Member Oliphant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    774

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by relenttless View Post
    Got VIP? must be pay to win
    Got all the packs premium? Must be pay to win
    Got ed's? Must be pay to win
    My hypothesis is folks mad about pay to win have at least two of these three goodies, and one of them is EDs. Plus they have tomes of learning, monster manual and ship buffs someone paid AS for...
    Please consider the environment before printing this post

  9. #9
    Community Member relenttless's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    uk
    Posts
    695

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by THOTHdha View Post
    This makes no sense at all. VIP is paying to get access to content. The core of what DDO's Fremium business model was. Buying the packs is the exact same thing, just giving people another option. EDs are content, something that is sold. The quip about having time seems like nonsensical ramblings that no one has ever seriously espoused. Nothing said here even approaches the problems of Pay to Win, where players are able to purchase absolute advantages. Such as Tomes of Fate and Raid Timer Bypasses.
    Exactly, so the whole notion is nonsense...We ALL pay to win in some respect or other, be it cash, time or some-such.

    Splitting hairs by claiming a difference between advantages bestowed by owning content and those given by spefic items is spurious twaddle.
    "IM-PLO-SION: For when you just HAVE to kill every M**********R in the room"-
    (Samuel L Jackson)

    "Some are insane, and the're in charge"
    (GoF)

    Sarlona: Mercilless, Maliciouss, Relenttless. Plus others.....

  10. #10
    Community Member Oliphant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    774

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by relenttless View Post
    Exactly, so the whole notion is nonsense...We ALL pay to win in some respect or other, be it cash, time or some-such.

    Splitting hairs by claiming a difference between advantages bestowed by owning content and those given by spefic items is spurious twaddle.
    I don't agree that content = character development. Paying to access content is clearly not p2w. It's pay to play. Paying to boost your xp (tome of learning, monster manual) is paying to accelerate your character development. Two different things. EDs have some content element but you're probably paying for the character development more than the little icons and descriptions. My point is we're all (or most of us) paying to accelerate our character development (seriously, if you play this game for hundreds of hours per year but cant get learning tomes, go mow a lawn for $10 and get a tome), and when it gets too expensive for our respective budgets, we draw the line and say its pay to win.

    Frankly the game is still fairly reasonable with the p2w elements. It can get ridiculous in some games to the extent that you have to p2w or you can't even play.
    Please consider the environment before printing this post

  11. #11
    Uber Uber Completionist
    2014 DDO Player Council
    The Stormreach Campaign
    Deadlock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Scotland - where the dwarf accents come from
    Posts
    3,808

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by relenttless View Post
    Exactly, so the whole notion is nonsense...We ALL pay to win in some respect or other, be it cash, time or some-such.

    Splitting hairs by claiming a difference between advantages bestowed by owning content and those given by spefic items is spurious twaddle.
    The only store item that gets accused of p2w are the Otto boxes. Those are best described as pay-not-to-play. I've heard every excuse possible to defend their right to exist - from solving the problem of discrimination against cash-rich-time-poor people, all the way up to keeping Turbine afloat and the DDO server lights on. Bottom line is they provide unearned advancement without playing the game and are better classified as pay-not-to-play.

  12. #12
    The Hatchery Karadon_II's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Cork City, Ireland
    Posts
    238

    Default

    The only Pay to Win is if you buy enough Otto's and Hearts to get Completionist and the game tells you you've won. There's no other kind of winning in a co-operative MMO. There is pay to save time but that's a different thing.

    Long live those who buy what other players grind; for they keep the lights on at Turbine.
    Karadon: Paladin [5] Mar - Jul 2006 - Aureon [EU] --- Paladin [20] Feb 2010 - June 2012 - Orien --- Paladin [21] June 2012 - July 2013 - Orien [TR1] --- Paladin [17] July 2013 - Present - Orien [TR2]
    Yes this is correct, I played Paladins, even pure Paladins before Update 23!!!

  13. #13
    Community Member LightBear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    2,095

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oliphant View Post
    Why are some things repeatedly called out as p2w and other things are not? If you pay $50 for a fraction of a past life, it appears that is pay to win. But is that really winning?

    What about tomes of learning and monster manuals? Ultimately these provide more xp benefits and are much more affordable but I haven't seen people call these out as p2w.

    What about epic destinies? I guess that's more pay to play, but I rarely see EDs even get called out as pay to play.

    It seems like the line is when it becomes a rip off. If you buy expensive stuff that doesn't really pay off, it's p2w.
    Anything that is charged for that gets you ahead of the curve is considered "pay-to-win".
    So yes, this would mean that stones, xp pots and tomes of learning are pay to win.
    I would consider all hp and sp pots from the store pay to win as well.
    As would I do for store bought tomes.
    Some would even say that the Cosmetic Armor Kits, Hairstyles and colors are pay to win, just because there is a niche for players who think that looking better then someone else is winning.
    This means that most items from the store fall under this.
    VIP speaks for it selfs, imho.
    However you can earn free turbine points by questing as well.

    Personally I'm in bias on the Monster Manual.
    It seems like it was something meant to be for the explorer type of player, "Gotta Catch Them All".
    The little side track of Rewards when unlocking a Deed requires a lot of effort from the player to gain anything out of it.
    Now the question is, how much ahead of the curve do I get with the monster manual?
    The few shards, the occasional Turbine points or the go-straight-to-the-mule's medium jewels of fortune are not something you would grind your hours of play time over to acquire.
    They're just a nice little bonus you happen to pick up along the way, if you want to grind for TP then going to a new server and do a 100-favor dash will net you more.
    Heck, considered the time involved just doing a 100 favor dash on a new character on your favorite server will cost you lest time.

    One, two! One, two! and through and through. The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
    He left it dead, and with its head. He went galumphing back.

  14. #14
    The Hatchery Nédime's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    France
    Posts
    627

    Default

    Don't really want to jump into the p2w debate as it has already been a sterile debate since +3 tomes were introduced in store.

    Just for the ED thing, I must admit I never thought it was something you paid for, I mean I bought the basic Xpac MotU, but I didn't get by the time that meant ppl who don't buy xpac wouldn't have access to EDs. Because my guildies and friends all got the Xpac, the problem didn't appear till one returning friend came back and went "*** ??? how do you do this thing guys ?!".

    Is it because I was conditionned to or because it sounds so logic, but I don't consider ED (nor adventure packs) as p2w. At all.

    Now speaking of achievement that would be nice EE WGU with a Barb with no EDs hahaha
    Aezechiel (Caster, 8th life) - Kakophonyc (Bard, 2nd life) - Larsenkarden (Cleric, 3rd life) - Lewela (Bard, 6th life) - Punkcanard (dual deathnip centered halfling tempest 3rd life) - Usuldur (Melee, completionist) - Sylentbob (ranger) ... and a couple of mules


    “It seemed to me,' said Wonko the Sane, 'that any civilization that had so far lost its head as to need to include a set of detailed instructions for use in a package of toothpicks, was no longer a civilization in which I could live and stay sane.”
    Douglas Adams, So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish

  15. #15
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    The Land of Oz
    Posts
    1,534

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oliphant View Post
    So paying not to play then. I'm selling that for half price today. Send me $25 and then don't play when you have something going on like studying or barbecues.
    Your wit astounds me.

    Seriously though, some people have jobs -> less free time -> more disposable income.
    Now, some of those people might value running content they enjoy>content they don't enjoy. Indeed, they value their preferred content enough to skip it.

    So, they can either bash their heads against the wall, running content they've run a thousand time over and hate or they can spend some money (See the part about jobs?) and skip it - letting them run what they like with their limited free time.

  16. #16
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1,919

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oliphant View Post
    Why are some things repeatedly called out as p2w and other things are not? If you pay $50 for a fraction of a past life, it appears that is pay to win. But is that really winning?

    What about tomes of learning and monster manuals? Ultimately these provide more xp benefits and are much more affordable but I haven't seen people call these out as p2w.

    What about epic destinies? I guess that's more pay to play, but I rarely see EDs even get called out as pay to play.

    It seems like the line is when it becomes a rip off. If you buy expensive stuff that doesn't really pay off, it's p2w.
    It depends on who said it. Pay to win is basically something that will benefit you with no afford. EDs are still count as pay to progress, because you actually have to put the work on it. But, this argument can go forever.
    Those people who shout that EDs are pay to win are those who can't afford buying it.
    Last edited by Angelic-council; 08-14-2014 at 06:31 AM.

  17. #17
    The Hatchery stoerm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    1,608

    Default

    Pay to win, the play

    Act MMDCXXXI
    Scene CMXIII

    Enter CHAI
    ...

  18. #18
    Community Member tralfaz81's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    767

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LightBear View Post
    Personally I'm in bias on the Monster Manual.
    It seems like it was something meant to be for the explorer type of player, "Gotta Catch Them All".
    The little side track of Rewards when unlocking a Deed requires a lot of effort from the player to gain anything out of it.
    Now the question is, how much ahead of the curve do I get with the monster manual?
    The few shards, the occasional Turbine points or the go-straight-to-the-mule's medium jewels of fortune are not something you would grind your hours of play time over to acquire.
    They're just a nice little bonus you happen to pick up along the way, if you want to grind for TP then going to a new server and do a 100-favor dash will net you more.
    Heck, considered the time involved just doing a 100 favor dash on a new character on your favorite server will cost you lest time.
    I don't understand the MM coming up in this conversation at all. Like you said, the benefits are marginal at best. The XP earned is barely even worth noticing and the handful of shards and TPs don't even begin to cover the cost. The pets are the only real bonus that comes from them, outside of what it's intended to be - just kind of a scorecard and personal achievements page. I'd buy them (and did buy them) for that alone.
    "Shut up and die like a wizard"

  19. #19
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Staffs, England
    Posts
    11,623

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    The only store item that gets accused of p2w are the Otto boxes.
    ONLY?

    Really?

    Mnem Pots!

    These have been called P2W for as long as I've been playing!

  20. #20
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1,919

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    ONLY?

    Really?

    Mnem Pots!

    These have been called P2W for as long as I've been playing!
    Yeah, a lot of store items are pay to win, including pots, tomes and others. Pay to win = benefit with no afford.
    Turbine even lowered Mne drop rates, and they put them on sale quite often. For temptation.
    Last edited by Angelic-council; 08-14-2014 at 06:36 AM.

Page 1 of 18 1234511 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload