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  1. #61
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude View Post
    I was about to take the time to go into excruciating detail and then I saw Raithe already did a perfect job of spelling it all out.

    Did they nerf Shiradi? Sure, if by nerf you simply mean slightly lowered it's effectiveness. However, they did not in any way fix the problem with Shiradi... missile spam that converts the small 7% proc chance into a very large proc chance.

    You want to see noob EE completions using Shiradi missile spam, tell you what, just use your imagination for a second. Suppose I took 6 people who have never heard of DDO before. People that have never played a video game before. Oh I really want to use my bind one half of the keyboard to one chain missile spell and the other half to the another and roll your face back and forth analogy, but I'm going to go a different route this time. Hook up an old Atari 2600 joystick and map the one button it has to the chain missiles SLA, forward and back to forward and back, and left and right to turn left and right.

    Do you think this group of 6 people who've never played a video game in their life, much less DDO, could get through any EE quests? I think the real question on everyone's mind is, are there any EE quests they couldn't complete.
    If you can take 6 brand new never played DDO before people and have them spam the same 2-3 buttons and complete high level EE ill be convinced. I do not believe you can do that however. Its the player and not the build that is going to prevail in EE, and metagaming has a heck of a lot to do with it than shiradi or draconic. Its more realistic to say that the same person I can give a shiradi build to who can succeed with it, will also succeed with a DC build.

    Claims of how easy it is are greatly exaggerated. Raithe outlined something that has existed for 7 years now, casters eliminating the need for melee DPS. This didn't just happen with shiradi, it happened early on in this game, 2006-2007 era. Shiradi has nothing to do with it until 2012. WHen casters were circle kiting wraiths through firewalls and killing drow blackguards that melee could barely hit in 2006, the "NEED" for melee DPS was all but circumvented. People play melee for fun, not because they are needed.

    The exclusivity agenda is transparent at this point. You outlined how you don't want something easy enough in game to allow entry into EE content with a high success rate. Your Atari analogy oversimplifies how this is played, but if shiradi is an atari joystick, then DC casting is a NES controller - with 2 buttons that get pushed a lot and another that gets pushed once in a while. A few more buttons doesn't make it any less of a one trick pony. DC casting, as Raithe pointed out, has contributed just as much to not needing melee DPS in this game as shiradi has, and it began that contribution in 2006, where shiradi only entered the equation in 2012.

    Ease of play has nothing to do with the complaints about shiradi, and that has been debunked several times over. Its ease of EE entry that has people up in arms. Exclusivity.

    I have also explained quite well how gating entry into EE hurts Turbines revenue stream. I have yet to see an an answer for how nerfing shiradi and denying easier entry into EE would help the game financially.

    Still awaiting your answer to my specific questions.
    Last edited by Chai; 08-13-2014 at 11:22 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #62
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude View Post
    There's no question Shiradi is better for a first life caster with little in the way of tomes and gear than a DC based destiny. In fact, any one at all could roll up an Iconic Bladeforged, Max CON all skillups in CON, 16 sorc / 2 pally / 2 monk and within a single day they could be running EE with a group, contributing as much if not more so than everyone else, simply by spamming 2 buttons.

    This sounds like a re-run of the ship amenities thread. What you claim as 'fact' is incorrect and a misunderstanding of how these builds work. Have you actually played one?

  3. #63
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    The chance of a mob NOT being affected by either Nerve Venom or a Double Rainbow effect after 2 magic missile strikes on it is about (0.93 ^ 20) = 23.4%. Casting a 1-second combo that could cost as little as 6 spell points (SLA, standard spell) will generally do a better job than casting heightened Hold Person for 33 spell points (the mobs will get additional saves every 3 seconds, and have a 5% chance to auto-save). The magic missile version of "Hold Person" will also do a bunch of damage, unrelated to the base force damage.

    Forgetting about the balance between class, destiny, and DDO content, you just made a bunch of spells inferior to a level 1 spell.

    The developers who came up with Shiradi did absolutely no checking of CC effect math. The damage done by Shiradi alone is entirely acceptable - its the damage done with Shiradi CC effects while using standard spells and Draconic twists that make it completely unacceptable. The destiny was extremely poorly thought-out, and its actually worse for competent ranged players. A "decent" (your word) ranged player will be hitting 3 targets most of the time at a slightly higher "casting" rate than magic missile. In addition to the Shiradi effects that casters wield, the ranged character will be using Pin and Otto's, both of which provide the incapacitated buff to damage and can apply their effects to multiple targets in a line.

    The biggest easy button in the game is ranged bow/thrower character + Shiradi. You don't even have to worry about spell points at all.

    The real downside of Shiradi, however, isn't that it was an easy button. It was that it eclipsed the need, entirely, for sustainable melee DPS. Ranged and casting, with the help of Shiradi/Fury/Draconic, made it clear shortly after MotU (and especially with the release of epic Gianthold) that melee were no longer useful, at all. That was really already true since Update 9 (the worst update in the history of game updates), but Shiradi was the massive injury and insult applied to the already deceased. Melee characters made up probably 70% of the playerbase before the Shiradi destiny, and post-Gianthold they probably made up less than 40% - of a playerbase that is about 40% the size it was. The only reason anyone plays a melee in DDO is because it has substantially better flavor - if all you cared about was efficiency of mass completions no one would play a melee.

    Dealing with the Shiradi ridiculousness is more about making melee a substantial part of the game again than it is about balancing casters. The latter will take quite a bit more work than just fixing Shiradi.
    Fully agree with this.

    I also do not understand why there is even any talk about first-life characters, easy button entry to EE, or monetization, over what is clearly an endgame character balance issue. You don't balance games based on what a bad player with no effort can do. I think its great that there are entry-level builds available for new players, and more should be available, but its also irrelevant.

    Shriadi is a topic of complaint because it is just one of the self-healing ranged AOE DPS tanks that dominate endgame right now, not because some new player gets to contribute in EE with less effort. It is a balance issue because it has no significant weaknesses, not because its easy to play.

    To be clear, I'm not even in favor of a direct nerf to shiradi. I think all ranged/caster builds need a overarching balance pass in the same way melee are getting now (which could include more generalized nerfs or adding a significant weakness to those playstyles, rather then targeting a specific build)
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I have also explained quite well how gating entry into EE hurts Turbines revenue stream. I have yet to see an an answer for how nerfing shiradi and denying easier entry into EE would help the game financially.
    The average player in DDO must be really really really bad. I draw this conclusion because my shiradi cannot solo many of the quests described on the forums as "easy" such as EE DA or EE breaking the ranks. I easily outkill 90%+ of the people I group with in pugs, outsurvive 95% or more... and if I can't solo these "easy" quests, I can't imagine the average pug player I group with can either. There is a group of people who will respond with, "good, no one should solo EE". That point aside, Shiradi by no means guarantees EE completions even for a competent player (I think I can at least qualify as competent).

    Gating entry to EE not only hurts turbine's immediate revenue, it hurts the health of the game. I'm all for very very tough high end quests, but there needs to be a smooth path to get there. By smooth, I mean there is always something just a lil harder with just a lil more reward that is the next step for the player. The game is managing to smooth out the difference between EE and EH by opening up the epic level range so that lower level EEs are valid options (I don't think they are the best min/max option right now, but they are possible).

    What is missing, is some really tough end game quests with matching rewards.

    *Disclaimer* My shiradi does wear level 20 gear other than a ML 23 quarterstaff, so I have to allow for the possibility that better gear would allow me to complete... I may never know, because after I finish ETRs, I am likely to start on ITRs, so by the time I'm level capped... the game may be dead.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Shriadi is a topic of complaint because it is just one of the self-healing ranged AOE DPS tanks that dominate endgame right now, not because some new player gets to contribute in EE with less effort. It is a balance issue because it has no significant weaknesses, not because its easy to play.
    Shiradi doesn't dominate any end game. The vast majority of posters in this thread have said other builds are stronger. The achievement forum doesn't even have a shiradi post in the first page. Shiradi don't dominate the LFMs. The speed records are mostly held by melee. The raid solos are mostly done by monkchers are shuriken throwers. And bards... bards are about to bring a whole new level of fun that has nothing to do with shiradi.

    Double raindow procs aren't guaranteed to take a mob out... heck, they aren't even guaranteed to do something bad to the mob. I have left double rainbow turned off when I relog sometimes and can go through an entire quest without noticing. Nerve venom doesn't work on every mob, and it doesn't work well on a large group of mobs... the time when you need CC the most. The best DPS from shiradi comes from either meteor storm (which is not available with a 2/2 splash option) or chain missile which is random where the damage goes and tends to agro the entire room. The single target MM damage from shiradi is really very low. Part of why I outkill many shiradi is precisely because they bought in that spamming MM is an uber killing machine. There are multiple ways a mob can be immune or resistant to MM spam such as spell level immunity, force resistant or self casting shield.

    Even when my main is in full fledged shiradi glory, I kill far more mobs with energy burst than I do with any other ability. I pay very little attention to spell DCs and yet energy burst is still my top killer. The magic missile spell is not even in the top 5 most frequently casts/actions that I take.

    Shiradi (casters) is reliable and long lasting source of mediocre dps. The weakness is that there are times you need to kill faster, that there are times a DC spell would be a much better option, that to min/max a survivable shiradi really wants to splash four levels. A DC caster has more flexibility than a shiradi. A monkcher/shuriken thrower has higher damage and can really go forever (shiradis do last a long time, but they can run out of sp). An average blitzing melee is far far far better dps than even a well build/well played shiradi.

    The fact that many shuriken throwers with 5 or more wizard levels advise against casting magic missile, and often also advise running in shadow dancer rather than shiradi.... flies in the face of the claim that shiradi is the be-all-end-all.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    The chance of a mob NOT being affected by either Nerve Venom or a Double Rainbow effect after 2 magic missile strikes on it is about (0.93 ^ 20) = 23.4%.
    So it is flip a coin if they get crowd controlled or a force bubble/adrenaline boost? Grouping double rainbow and nerve venom makes no sense at all other than to try to get your numbers to look better.
    Last edited by Ancient; 08-13-2014 at 02:13 PM.

  7. #67
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post

    The real downside of Shiradi, however, isn't that it was an easy button. It was that it eclipsed the need, entirely, for sustainable melee DPS. Ranged and casting, with the help of Shiradi/Fury/Draconic, made it clear shortly after MotU (and especially with the release of epic Gianthold) that melee were no longer useful, at all. That was really already true since Update 9 (the worst update in the history of game updates), but Shiradi was the massive injury and insult applied to the already deceased. Melee characters made up probably 70% of the playerbase before the Shiradi destiny, and post-Gianthold they probably made up less than 40% - of a playerbase that is about 40% the size it was. The only reason anyone plays a melee in DDO is because it has substantially better flavor - if all you cared about was efficiency of mass completions no one would play a melee.
    I agree with this with one correction. Casters make melee not needed. Shiradi only began contributing to that by proxy in 2012. Before that, casters were circle kiting wraiths and easily killing drow blackguards melee can barely hit all the way back to 2006. This didn't begin happening with shiradi. It was always the case. Even if shiradi did not exist currently, it would still be the case to an equal degree, because shiradi is not on top as far as caster builds are concerned.

    I also note many of the next updates changes are about closing the gap between melee and casters.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #68
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gempoult View Post
    You don't get it, do you? It's not about beating the time of a very skillful player with arguably the best melee/monkcher build available (that he created himself so knows all the strengths and few weaknesses), it's about the fact that first life toon created yesterday can complete solo WGU EE, regardless of the time it takes them. That shouldn't be possible - not: "ah, ok it takes 35 minutes while cetus can do it in 25 so it's ok, not OP" your argument is laughable.
    This is entirely BS and you know it.
    If this is true, do it. Create a first life Shiradi build, cap it to 28, max out shiradi, and get the Spellpower items needed and solo EEWGU, or any other moderately difficult EE quest. If, and when you can do this I will believe Shiradi casters are OP. Create a shiradi caster today and solo EE WGU with it tomorrow. Since it's only 2 days of play time it's not like you'll miss much by doing this right?

    Also, I don't understand this "Melee's are not needed" ****. Most of the endgame players I know have their mains as melee. I's say something close to 80% on Argo? Of course they have caster Alts, but their mains are mostly melee. If you go the the Achievements section, the vast majority of EEsolo's people post are by melee's.(Maybe not raids but anything else...) almost ALL speed records are held by melee toons.

    The truth is in this game if you're good enough to solo EE's, NO other class/build/playstyle other than the one you're playing is needed.
    When I solo EEDA on my hybrid build casters or melee are not needed. No one class/build/styles/etc. are needed at all, but ALL can be viable and fun to play.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    The average player in DDO must be really really really bad.
    Yes, they are. You could have stopped there.

    Are people still asking for Shiradi to be nerfed?

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    This is entirely BS and you know it.
    If this is true, do it. Create a first life Shiradi build, cap it to 28, max out shiradi, and get the Spellpower items needed and solo EEWGU, or any other moderately difficult EE quest. If, and when you can do this I will believe Shiradi casters are OP. Create a shiradi caster today and solo EE WGU with it tomorrow. Since it's only 2 days of play time it's not like you'll miss much by doing this right?

    Also, I don't understand this "Melee's are not needed" ****. Most of the endgame players I know have their mains as melee. I's say something close to 80% on Argo? Of course they have caster Alts, but their mains are mostly melee. If you go the the Achievements section, the vast majority of EEsolo's people post are by melee's.(Maybe not raids but anything else...) almost ALL speed records are held by melee toons.

    The truth is in this game if you're good enough to solo EE's, NO other class/build/playstyle other than the one you're playing is needed.
    When I solo EEDA on my hybrid build casters or melee are not needed. No one class/build/styles/etc. are needed at all, but ALL can be viable and fun to play.
    He is an outstanding player on Sarlona and may be able to pull it off, but I definitely agree with your point that a new player isn't going to roll up a shiradi and be soloing EE WGU the next day. I think a shiradi caster is a good entry-level EE build for joining parties - soloing is an enitrely different matter and most players have no desire to solo EE.
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  11. #71
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Shiradi doesn't dominate any end game. The vast majority of posters in this thread have said other builds are stronger.
    Like I said, shriadi is "just one of" the builds that dominate endgame, not the only one. Good shriadi builds can not only clear entire EE quests solo without pots, but they also dps tank EE raids and can hold threat against almost anything except a good fury shot. I have no clue where the idea that shiradi is not a top build comes from.

    A side note, my paladin can also dominate endgame and can solo basically any quest on EE. The vast majority of posters on the forums would tell you that paladins are useless and need buffs to even contribute. Perhaps the vast majority doesn't know what they're talking about
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    This is entirely BS and you know it.
    If this is true, do it. Create a first life Shiradi build, cap it to 28, max out shiradi, and get the Spellpower items needed and solo EEWGU, or any other moderately difficult EE quest. If, and when you can do this I will believe Shiradi casters are OP. Create a shiradi caster today and solo EE WGU with it tomorrow. Since it's only 2 days of play time it's not like you'll miss much by doing this right?

    Also, I don't understand this "Melee's are not needed" ****. Most of the endgame players I know have their mains as melee. I's say something close to 80% on Argo? Of course they have caster Alts, but their mains are mostly melee. If you go the the Achievements section, the vast majority of EEsolo's people post are by melee's.(Maybe not raids but anything else...) almost ALL speed records are held by melee toons.

    The truth is in this game if you're good enough to solo EE's, NO other class/build/playstyle other than the one you're playing is needed.
    When I solo EEDA on my hybrid build casters or melee are not needed. No one class/build/styles/etc. are needed at all, but ALL can be viable and fun to play.
    Yeah, sure, whatever you say, "it's entirely BS" I don't even understand what are you people so scared of... Even if shiradi is fixed (by that I mean made to simply proc once per spell cast) you will still have your monkchers to farm EE gear with, and Turbine isn't making more EE gear (it seems), and EE gear doesn't sell for even 1/3 of the price it used to... Why are you so afraid to admit this destiny is broken, obviously not working as intended and even (as some of you say) not that much fun to play?

  13. #73
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Like I said, shriadi is "just one of" the builds that dominate endgame, not the only one. Good shriadi builds can not only clear entire EE quests solo without pots, but they also dps tank EE raids and can hold threat against almost anything except a good fury shot. I have no clue where the idea that shiradi is not a top build comes from.
    No they can't. Caster sustainable DPS pales in comparison to melee sustainable DPS. The overstatement of how good shiradi is in this thread is ridiculous.

  14. #74
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gempoult View Post
    Yeah, sure, whatever you say, "it's entirely BS" I don't even understand what are you people so scared of... Even if shiradi is fixed (by that I mean made to simply proc once per spell cast) you will still have your monkchers to farm EE gear with, and Turbine isn't making more EE gear (it seems), and EE gear doesn't sell for even 1/3 of the price it used to... Why are you so afraid to admit this destiny is broken, obviously not working as intended and even (as some of you say) not that much fun to play?
    You misunderstand me, I don't care. I have no dog in this fight, so to speak. I don't play casters at all, and I don't certainly don't play shiradi casters. I've never found then much fun, and other than a splash, or a base for a melee build I find casters completely pointless beyond a simple haste bot. That being said, I love running with people who build and play very good casters.

    But what you and a lot of people are spreading as truth, this myth that you can create a half-assed shiradi caster one day and solo tough EE content the next without any investment or any real effort, IS BS. You know it, and I know it. That's why you're not going to actually DO it, you'll just talk about how it can so easily be done. It's moronic.

    I play Rangers 90% of the time. SO this wouldn't affect me in any way what-so-ever. However I do think it's disingenuous to call for the destiny to be nerfed to uselessness because you don't like to play that type of caster and thing it's to easy button because it doesn't require 9 past lives and maxed out destinies.
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  15. #75
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gempoult View Post
    You don't get it, do you? It's not about beating the time of a very skillful player with arguably the best melee/monkcher build available (that he created himself so knows all the strengths and few weaknesses), it's about the fact that first life toon created yesterday can complete solo WGU EE, regardless of the time it takes them. That shouldn't be possible - not: "ah, ok it takes 35 minutes while cetus can do it in 25 so it's ok, not OP" your argument is laughable.
    Ya know, cetus also has a sorc that he created himself so he knows all the strengths and few weaknesses, but it's a draconic sorc, not shiradi.

  16. #76
    Community Member Lycurgus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    But what you and a lot of people are spreading as truth, this myth that you can create a half-assed shiradi caster one day and solo tough EE content the next without any investment or any real effort, IS BS. You know it, and I know it. That's why you're not going to actually DO it, you'll just talk about how it can so easily be done. It's moronic.
    For whatever it's worth, I've brought my heroic completionist/epic completionist 16/2/2 wiz/mnk/fvs shiradi into EE WGU and Breaking the Ranks a half dozen times in the last few days and consistently run out of spell points in the end fight for both quests. No doubt there are others who could pull it off. I might pull it off with a lucky Joy with the Queen at the right moment or using consumables, but it would by no means be a sure thing. If the claim is that a first life toon can waltz in and pull it off, I'd like to see the video.

    Either quest on a blitzing melee is a cakewalk in comparison.



  17. #77
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    No they can't. Caster sustainable DPS pales in comparison to melee sustainable DPS. The overstatement of how good shiradi is in this thread is ridiculous.
    What do you mean "No they can't"? I run with shriadi players that do exactly that on a daily basis. Ok, maybe it might take a few pots to clear some of the more difficult quests, but the point was accurate. The typical tank choice for EE dragon raids basically goes: moncher->shiradi->intim+healer , and that generally the same reliability of holding agro as well.
    Also, define "sustainable". If you mean blitz, then yes melee can out dps casters, but I wouldn't really consider blitz a sustainable source of boss damage. The average non-blitzing melee is actually very similar to single target shriadi dps.
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