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  1. #1
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Default Making a Henshin Mystic

    After reading Syn's guide, I really want to make one. I realize that, yeah, Shintao would probably be better to start with, but ... well, Henshin just seems awesome.

    And I want to be a pure Henshin, not cross-classing into Rogue for Thief-Acrobat.

    Having said that... there's really only one thing I'm not sure of.

    Fists of Light, or Fists of Darkness at level 3? It affects which alternative Fist I can get towards the end, and considering the alternative dark fist is bugged to inflict negative levels on you and your party, I'm thinking I should go Fists of Darkness to get the alternative light attack, which I actually like the effect of. Though I will miss out on self healing from Fists of Light. Hmm.

    What do you think? Is Deathward a common enough buff for the party that I shouldn't really worry about the "Every Light Casts a Shadow" glitch?
    Once I get my moods under control, I might actually get a character past level 7... ooh, shiny!

    Paladins got some love! Now for Warpriests...

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    After reading Syn's guide, I really want to make one. I realize that, yeah, Shintao would probably be better to start with, but ... well, Henshin just seems awesome.
    What seems awesome about a non-stick Henshin? The fire??

    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    What do you think? Is Deathward a common enough buff for the party that I shouldn't really worry about the "Every Light Casts a Shadow" glitch?
    Deathward is pretty common, but... since you ask, Harmonious would probably be better for you even if you never use the t5 Balance in Dawn.

    The thing is: the major reason to be an Inevitable Dominion Monk at all is to get TOD in Ninja t5. If you're taking Henshin t5 then you can't have that... so no reason to be a dark Monk in the first place.

    PS. Note that there's another bug, that Balance In Dawn doesn't work as a prereq for Ninjutsu or Elemental Curatives.
    Last edited by Scrabbler; 08-11-2014 at 01:21 AM.

  3. #3
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabbler View Post
    What seems awesome about a non-stick Henshin? The fire??
    Well the fact that I don't need to use spray to avoid getting food stuck to me.

    But in all seriousness, I never said I wasn't going to use a staff O_o

    And yeah, you're right, Harmonious does seem the best way.
    Once I get my moods under control, I might actually get a character past level 7... ooh, shiny!

    Paladins got some love! Now for Warpriests...

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    But in all seriousness, I never said I wasn't going to use a staff O_o
    You said you weren't taking any Rogue levels, and it really doesn't make sense for non-Rogue to use a staff.

    Just take a look at the Henshin capstone, and compare it to the alternative of +15% staff speed and 2d6 Sneak Attack. (Or even more staff speed if you have Rog2)

  5. #5
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Serenity: Your understanding of things has evolved to a level that defies description.

    +2 Wisdom
    + 10 Concentration
    +1 Passive ki generation
    +25 Fire and Force Spell Power
    +5% Fire and Force Spell Critical chance
    +2 Fire Resistance
    Enemies have an additional -2 Fire Resistance against your spells.

    This final core is based on the remains of the original Monk level 20 capstone enhancement. As Mystics will go through ki rapidly in their fighting, this is an appropriate relocation of this old capstone, especially with extra WIS, Concentration and passive ki regeneration. Update 19.2 updated this ability and other cores with spell critical chances.
    Looking pretty fine to me.

    Also:

    Sounding Staff: While you are centered, any staff you wield is treated as an implement, granting 3 Universal Spell Power per point of enhancement bonus.

    When throwing your mystical energies around, keep in hand a high-spell power quarterstaff to gain improvements on your spell power.
    A reason for someone besides a Rogue to use a staff.

    15% speed with a staff is nice, but there's more to a Henshin than a staff. Simultaneously, there is more to a Henshin than fire.

    It would be like playing a Stalwart Defender without a shield to be a Henshin without a staff.
    Once I get my moods under control, I might actually get a character past level 7... ooh, shiny!

    Paladins got some love! Now for Warpriests...

  6. #6
    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    After reading Syn's guide, I really want to make one. I realize that, yeah, Shintao would probably be better to start with, but ... well, Henshin just seems awesome.

    And I want to be a pure Henshin, not cross-classing into Rogue for Thief-Acrobat.
    Syn is very pro pure classes, whereas I'm very pro splashing / deep multiclass builds, and both of our bias will come through in our advice.

    Before settling on your current opinion, I'd like to point out how much you can gain from what just 2 Rogue levels will get you:
    +15% attack speed with quarterstaffs.
    Quickstrike attack with 80% uptime.
    Hasteboost
    + 1d6 sneak attack damage
    + 2 to hit / damage with staves.
    UMD & Traps

    The Henshin mystic capstone imo is a small advantage that comes as too little too late, wisdom is not overly important to a staff build and the elemental damage that you can dish out as a Henshin doesn't really scale well into high level epics. The higher your level, the greater the percentage of your total damage is dependent on swinging your staff as fast as possible.

    In the guide for beginners link in my signature is a Henshin mystic quarterstaff build, that perhaps you could look at and see how much you can gain from a very small splash & how similar the builds look.

    As for light vs Dark.

    Imo as a henshin, light is much better at cap, dark is better for leveling (from level 12-20 the dark henshin heal is pretty sweet, but completely pointless once you get rejuv cocoon). On my henshin I took dark at level 3, and feat swapped at level 20.

    *edit* apologies, I just noticed your sig, I thought your opinion may have been swayed by the advice you read, it clearly is not. Despite my own preferences I'll gladly admit that pureclass HM's are quite viable whilst leveling and at cap, so I hope you enjoy yours.
    Last edited by fTdOmen; 08-11-2014 at 01:59 AM.

  7. #7
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Funny, I'm very pro pure classes, too.

    As such, I thank you for your advice, but I'm not splashing. Nor am I gonna be a Henshin Fystic, either :P

    As far as the abilities not scaling well, well, I don't expect to be dealing Wizard-level damage. Otherwise, why roll a wizard?

    I'm trusting Syn on this matter. That's not to say you're wrong, either. Personally I think you both have great points, but as my philosophy fits his better, I'm following his advice over yours. Sorry.
    Once I get my moods under control, I might actually get a character past level 7... ooh, shiny!

    Paladins got some love! Now for Warpriests...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    Looking pretty fine to me.
    Um, no, the Henshin capstone is quite unimpressive unless you were a Fire Savant. (And you can't be a Fire Savant with 20 levels of Monk)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    A reason for someone besides a Rogue to use a staff.
    Ok, it looks like you're falling into the same trap the designers did when they created the Henshin tree. They thought that having 3 SLAs meant the character was some kind of caster who cared about Spellpower and spell crit.

    Even if you do happen to care about Spellpower (such as for healing finisher): that means you'll probably put a spellpower augment into your staff, so it will be an Implement on its own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    It would be like playing a Stalwart Defender without a shield to be a Henshin without a staff.
    If you think Henshin builds need to use staff that strongly, then you need the Rogue level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski
    As such, I thank you for your advice, but I'm not splashing.
    Another tidbit about being a pure class Henshin: you won't qualify for Maximize or Empower, which could give the SLAs better damage.


    Overall, it looks like you're going pure into a class tree that has anti-purity design errors. Henshin should have 15% staff speed in tier 1. It should have faster casting SLAs, but not allow metamagic to boost them. It should have a capstone that does something solid. And of course Balance In Dawn needs a few fixes... I wish it wasn't a mistake to go pure Monk staff Henshin.
    Last edited by Scrabbler; 08-11-2014 at 02:13 AM.

  9. #9
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Another tidbit about being a pure class Henshin: you won't qualify for Maximize or Empower, which could give the SLAs better damage.
    ...No offense, but with this statement, you more or less proved that I know more about Henshin Mystics than you do.

    No metamagics is certainly by developer design (in as far as what's been shown in Update 19). A Henshin Mystic is still a Monk, and therefore a melee character. As with some Monks, you can gain potent spell-like abilities for attack and defense. But the DDO developers don't want to overpower this class tree. (Don't bother trying to add meta-feats by multiclassing. Reports indicate that metamagic feats don't affect Mystic spell power.)
    Once I get my moods under control, I might actually get a character past level 7... ooh, shiny!

    Paladins got some love! Now for Warpriests...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    ...No offense, but with this statement, you more or less proved that I know more about Henshin Mystics than you do.
    To think that is another mistake. Good luck with your extra-slow staff swinger!

  11. #11
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    How rude.
    Once I get my moods under control, I might actually get a character past level 7... ooh, shiny!

    Paladins got some love! Now for Warpriests...

  12. #12
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    How rude.
    Get it right:


  13. #13
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    My mistake XD
    Once I get my moods under control, I might actually get a character past level 7... ooh, shiny!

    Paladins got some love! Now for Warpriests...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by fTdOmen View Post
    Syn is very pro pure classes, whereas I'm very pro splashing / deep multiclass builds, and both of our bias will come through in our advice.

    Before settling on your current opinion, I'd like to point out how much you can gain from what just 2 Rogue levels will get you:
    +15% attack speed with quarterstaffs.
    Quickstrike attack with 80% uptime.
    Hasteboost
    + 1d6 sneak attack damage
    + 2 to hit / damage with staves.
    UMD & Traps

    The Henshin mystic capstone imo is a small advantage that comes as too little too late, wisdom is not overly important to a staff build and the elemental damage that you can dish out as a Henshin doesn't really scale well into high level epics. The higher your level, the greater the percentage of your total damage is dependent on swinging your staff as fast as possible.

    In the guide for beginners link in my signature is a Henshin mystic quarterstaff build, that perhaps you could look at and see how much you can gain from a very small splash & how similar the builds look.

    As for light vs Dark.

    Imo as a henshin, light is much better at cap, dark is better for leveling (from level 12-20 the dark henshin heal is pretty sweet, but completely pointless once you get rejuv cocoon). On my henshin I took dark at level 3, and feat swapped at level 20.

    *edit* apologies, I just noticed your sig, I thought your opinion may have been swayed by the advice you read, it clearly is not. Despite my own preferences I'll gladly admit that pureclass HM's are quite viable whilst leveling and at cap, so I hope you enjoy yours.

    I second FtdOmen's observation about light/dark--SCEWL is awesome in heroics until you get cocoon.

    Epic reincarnates are easy now. A pure Henshion can ETR into a pure ninja or pure shintao if you like experimenting with different capstones
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  15. #15
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Aha, so I *should* go Inevitable Dominion then?

    I guess I'll survive without self-healing until level 5 XD
    Once I get my moods under control, I might actually get a character past level 7... ooh, shiny!

    Paladins got some love! Now for Warpriests...

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    Aha, so I *should* go Inevitable Dominion then?

    I guess I'll survive without self-healing until level 5 XD
    12; it is tier5
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  17. #17
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    I actually meant level 7, but I confused Purity of Body with Wholeness of Body x_X
    Once I get my moods under control, I might actually get a character past level 7... ooh, shiny!

    Paladins got some love! Now for Warpriests...

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saekee View Post
    I second FtdOmen's observation about light/dark--SCEWL is awesome in heroics until you get cocoon.

    Epic reincarnates are easy now. A pure Henshion can ETR into a pure ninja or pure shintao if you like experimenting with different capstones
    Good advice there; keep the flexibility even throughout the life before reincarnating.

    There's nothing slow about a pure Mystic's general staff speed. But what they may lack in speed they make up in tremendous damage. My Mystic can dish out 300-500 criticals quite easily and rapidly. If anything else, add STR to get more damage from that staff.

    I added a lot of tactical feats on mine. I can continually spam Cleave, Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack while standing in a Cauldron of Flame. Think of it as a spinning Flame Turret covered with baseball bats. Not much that isn't fire immune is going to take that damage for long.

    A Mystic with Legendary Dreadnought is a Master with The Stick of Great Thwack. Let's not even get into Master's Blitz.

    Healing is an issue, and I went Light to aid here. But the Mystic gains a lot more aggro than even a Shintao but without the Shintao's advantages in protection, so play carefully and/or add any applicable training from Shintao and Ninja Spy (Shadow Veil!) to help.
    Last edited by Spencerian; 08-11-2014 at 02:33 PM.
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  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabbler View Post
    PS. Note that there's another bug, that Balance In Dawn doesn't work as a prereq for Ninjutsu or Elemental Curatives.
    I'm not sure that's a bug but as designed since the trees remain rooted in philosophies. The Ninja Spy says, "Dark." The Shintao says, "Light." The Mystic says, "Yes."

    As a result, a Mystic is more of its own philosophy. As such, it cannot fully benefit from the other's training. At least in gameplay, to me, this makes sense.

    Sadly, the Mystics inherited the old Ninja Spy's debuffing strikes as their speciality, which are still generally of low use except in rare cases (like making Harry more vulnerable to electricity in a Shroud run).

    On the plus side, the Mystic is the only Monk that can ultimately complete every single one of the 17 finishing moves, including the Void finishers that neither Shintao nor Ninja can do now: Curse of the Void (charm) and Moment of Clarity (attack buff). I really wish they'd add an elective low Void Strike so we can do those finishers again.
    Editor, The Book of Syncletica: An unofficial DDO Monk Guide, and Stormreach Shadows: An unofficial DDO Stealth Guide
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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabbler View Post
    Um, no, the Henshin capstone is quite unimpressive unless you were a Fire Savant. (And you can't be a Fire Savant with 20 levels of Monk)
    He wouldn't need to. The capstone is actually very impressive as (with a dab of AP in Ninja Spy) have a +5/6 ki regeneration. Standing still, my Mystic will fill her ki bar to 90%. It's our "Con-Op". High WIS means more ki, which the Mystic will weaponize more than other classes. By level 20, I NEVER run out of ki, no matter what I want to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabbler View Post
    Ok, it looks like you're falling into the same trap the designers did when they created the Henshin tree. They thought that having 3 SLAs meant the character was some kind of caster who cared about Spellpower and spell crit.

    Even if you do happen to care about Spellpower (such as for healing finisher): that means you'll probably put a spellpower augment into your staff, so it will be an Implement on its own.
    A Mystic's staff becomes an Implement at level 6. They can also utilize any other spellpower boosting effects out there except metamagics, and also gain spell crits to Fire and Force for each core ability trained. Slotting some Inferno and Impact gems sweetens the happiness. Did we mention that the Mystic still has Void Strike that (if it doesn't insta-kill) is a brutal slap of Force damage combined with spell critical and spell power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabbler View Post
    If you think Henshin builds need to use staff that strongly, then you need the Rogue level.
    Not if he wants enough ki to wipe the floor with his enemies, as I've noted about the capstone and passive ki regeneration. Rogues are usually more DEX based in their fighting, and a Mystic needs STR. You can gain more competence bonuses by lumping in the Rogue staff training, but it's offset by less of the Mystic's innate firepower--literally. There's also the matter of losing Grandmaster stances without having to spend a feat to earn them, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabbler View Post
    Another tidbit about being a pure class Henshin: you won't qualify for Maximize or Empower, which could give the SLAs better damage.


    Overall, it looks like you're going pure into a class tree that has anti-purity design errors. Henshin should have 15% staff speed in tier 1. It should have faster casting SLAs, but not allow metamagic to boost them. It should have a capstone that does something solid. And of course Balance In Dawn needs a few fixes... I wish it wasn't a mistake to go pure Monk staff Henshin.
    As the OP noted, it's clear that you haven't played this class to know what happens. Of the capstones, the Mystic is second-best. The Shintao is the worst, and the Ninja Spy gains the best (vorpal anything with stars or swords).

    I look forward to running my Mystic through "What Goes Up" against the ice elementals. It'll be like lopping the heads of snowman off with a spinning flamethrower.
    Editor, The Book of Syncletica: An unofficial DDO Monk Guide, and Stormreach Shadows: An unofficial DDO Stealth Guide
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