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  1. #41
    Community Member Turbosilk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rykka View Post
    Simple question, rank these in order of heinousness.

    A Pure Wizard
    A Rogue2 Wizard18
    Pure Sorc
    Sorc with Pal2 splash.
    Cetus
    Any uber optimal Bard swash build
    Any uber build that optimizes on a monk2 splash
    Something else.
    I thought maybe you were posting well thought out threads until I saw this one right after the other one. It looks like you've not played a sorc or wiz or you'd under the trade off in damage vs survivability and that your damage is constrained by your spell points.

    I see no merit in your assertion that caster wiz/sorc are OP.
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  2. #42
    Community Member Turbosilk's Avatar
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    Already stated.
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  3. #43
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nédime View Post
    No FVS in the list?


    After 3 wizz and 3 Sorc lives, my caster Aezechiel XXV, XVII is doing his 2nd FVS life. First one I went 18 fvs 2 monk Helf w/ paly dilettante. I didn't play much EE nor geared him to death because it was just for the PL but I felt much potential. Especially since they revamped the Exalted Angel ED (+3 DC is real cool, Divine Wrath and Sun Bolt are more than okay, and when things get odd you can leap of faith + implosion). Was keeping +3DC and EB twisted. On top of this you could heal a party member who put him/herself in a bad position.

    Now I'm trying an armored PDK Fvs with a shield (been years since my last non evasion toon lol). Next life will prolly be pure so I can see the impact of capstone.

    I still have to explore druid 'pure' caster builds (only made a melee wolf and a mixed melee dot/aoe for now) for a life or 2 to decide but right now my choice would go to Fvs over 16/2/2 sorc and 18/2 wizz (which were both cool and efficient but not as universal as fvs imo).
    FVS is not on the list because a few cases aside, FvS is not an efficient runner type, FvS goes the slow but sure way to victory. There is the biggest tradeoff i see, they lack good inherent "fire everything" type burst damage. A sorc or a wiz can easily empty a room in a matter of seconds, the same room granted stuff have evasion and good reflexes, might take a good while for an FvS. Implosion is good, but really not on par with arcane burst, or mass instakills. - again, as far as efficiency goes.

  4. #44
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    ...

    For most content however, a party with a good mix (1 Wizard for CC and trash removal; 1 Warpriest to throw vulnerability stacks around like its candy; and the rest Melee/ranged dps) would be ideal as the different classes can play to their strengths while using the rest of the party to cover their weaknesses.

    I hope this helps.
    The only problem i see with your classification of roles is: For the most part, until you get to the boss, which is often 99% of content, your melees will feel like utter pikers (momentum abilites like blitz help a lot, but how much time is going into leveling different EDs?). In some cases the caster types will make good laughs and insults at your melees .

    I am now in the process of packing up my 5 characters, and make 4 of them the bank space for my Caster, the current system does not really support playing multiple characters, and honestly the best utility/versatility, and solo efficiency comes from a Caster type, be it an Arcane or a Divine. Almost doesnt matter.

    It is very idealistic that most melees make it alone to the Boss in a timely manner, and survive the encounter while slowly beating down the over escalated hitpoints. This is a feat of very good players with non trivial investment in their characters!

    Spell points argument is absolutely offset in my view, efficient farm EE gear -> AH -> Profit -> Grab stacks of spell potions from your proftis <- repeat. Not to mention the amount of shrines in content is completely unnecessary, although i think it helps a little everyone, tho a full mana bar from resting is easily the greater benefit shrines grant.

    An efficient melee type will almost 100% be locked into raid gear, but surely locked into raid weapons. A caster type is much less likely to be locked into raid gear, as randgen sticks are only marginally behind raid equipment. (well, at least until TF)

  5. #45
    2014 DDO Players Council ishr's Avatar
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    cool off, all non-casters are getting a 150% buff to damage soon.

  6. #46
    The Hatchery Nédime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    FVS is not on the list because a few cases aside, FvS is not an efficient runner type, FvS goes the slow but sure way to victory. There is the biggest tradeoff i see, they lack good inherent "fire everything" type burst damage. A sorc or a wiz can easily empty a room in a matter of seconds, the same room granted stuff have evasion and good reflexes, might take a good while for an FvS. Implosion is good, but really not on par with arcane burst, or mass instakills. - again, as far as efficiency goes.
    How could implosion not be on par with other mass instakills ? Is it because it doesn't neglev on saves like wail ?

    I stated I had 3 sorc 3 wizz past life so DC & spell pen are not really a problem (52 evocation, no yuggo pots used, 'only' a +4 evocation dc item, no maxed out wisdom - +9 & +2 wisdom item - and no capstone - not taking in consideration debuffs and aura of menace too). A mob may evade once a blade barrier (750-1.5k dmg) but rarely twice. As for implosion, they may save once but get caught on the next try (spell circles around nearby mobs).

    Divine wrath is like 3k AoE, which heals for half this amount so very useful. Can twist EB and/or take ruin (which I did) for red named bosses and specific high resistance mobs. Don't forget a very efficient dot (DP, a very reduced number of immune mobs in the whole game).
    Aezechiel (Caster, 8th life) - Kakophonyc (Bard, 2nd life) - Larsenkarden (Cleric, 3rd life) - Lewela (Bard, 6th life) - Punkcanard (dual deathnip centered halfling tempest 3rd life) - Usuldur (Melee, completionist) - Sylentbob (ranger) ... and a couple of mules


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  7. #47
    Community Member Indianwiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ishr View Post
    cool off, all non-casters are getting a 150% buff to damage soon.
    Ding! we have a winner. When this change happens, wizards will be below paladins. Anyone who thinks otherwise is still in la-la land.

  8. #48
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turbosilk View Post
    I thought maybe you were posting well thought out threads until I saw this one right after the other one. It looks like you've not played a sorc or wiz or you'd under the trade off in damage vs survivability and that your damage is constrained by your spell points.

    I see no merit in your assertion that caster wiz/sorc are OP.
    Casters have the greatest survivability of all classes with various means of self-healing and the ability to do damage without getting hit. Limited spell points do not often pose an issue, as there are many means of replenishing SP available. Maybe only in the longer fights.

  9. #49
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indianwiz View Post
    Ding! we have a winner. When this change happens, wizards will be below paladins. Anyone who thinks otherwise is still in la-la land.
    Nice derail, but no. And those changes wont really solve anything, you cant just apply flat %-es to solve balance issues.
    We have gathered good suggestions over the years, how to get melees in line, but no response, nothing.

    It will still be more time efficient to mass instakill groups of mobs, than instead of 300 base damage, hitting for 450 or even 600! per swing. Sure you can get ahead in quests where bosses and minibosses are required to progress, but those are quite rare imo.

    I do agree if they flat add %-es, they gonna just proxy nerf the currently unsupported classes, but your Wizards are safe, it would take several more proxy nerfs before playing a Wizard becomes suboptimal.

    Just calling out others who dare to differ from your opinion without even having a counter point wont get you far imo.

  10. #50
    Community Member Varinon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nédime View Post
    How could implosion not be on par with other mass instakills ? Is it because it doesn't neglev on saves like wail ?
    The reason Implosion is behind Wail isn't because the effect is that much different, it's how it achieves the effect.
    Implosion only targets one enemy at a time, to a maximum of five targets, over a duration of 10 seconds.
    Wail of the Banshee, however, targets two enemies at a time, to a maximum of six targets, over a duration of 6 seconds (the spell says 7, but it only visually lasts past 6).

    Wail is faster at killing stuff than Implosion is, and can kill one more enemy. That is why Wail is better than Implosion.

  11. #51
    Community Member Vanhooger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varinon View Post
    The reason Implosion is behind Wail isn't because the effect is that much different, it's how it achieves the effect.
    Implosion only targets one enemy at a time, to a maximum of five targets, over a duration of 10 seconds.
    Wail of the Banshee, however, targets two enemies at a time, to a maximum of six targets, over a duration of 6 seconds (the spell says 7, but it only visually lasts past 6).

    Wail is faster at killing stuff than Implosion is, and can kill one more enemy. That is why Wail is better than Implosion.
    Implosion hit undead & construct, wail don't
    Last edited by Vanhooger; 08-07-2014 at 09:33 AM.
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  12. #52
    Community Member Varinon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanhooger View Post
    Implosion hit undead too, wail don't
    Constructs too. That is one benefit Implosion has over Wail.

  13. #53
    Community Member Vanhooger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varinon View Post
    Constructs too. That is one benefit Implosion has over Wail.
    You didn't gave me enough time to edit my post lol
    Triple Heroic & Epic completionist. Eroic : 42/42 - Epic : 36/36 - Iconic : 12/12. Santa Alleanza officer on Cannith.

  14. #54
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    Try casting Implosion near any friendly party member and then come here to tell me it is OP.
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  15. #55
    Community Member Vanhooger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atremus View Post
    Try casting Implosion near any friendly party member and then come here to tell me it is OP.
    Different story, that is a bug, and it's not OP, it just doing what is suppoesd to do.
    Triple Heroic & Epic completionist. Eroic : 42/42 - Epic : 36/36 - Iconic : 12/12. Santa Alleanza officer on Cannith.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rykka View Post
    Simple question, rank these in order of heinousness.

    A Pure Wizard
    A Rogue2 Wizard18
    Pure Sorc
    Sorc with Pal2 splash.
    Cetus
    Any uber optimal Bard swash build
    Any uber build that optimizes on a monk2 splash
    Something else.
    What does that question have to do with the thread title? "Dear Forumites, please convince me Wizards and Sorcerers are balanced." The wording of the first sentence hardly indicates an unbiased look into the opinions of others.

  17. #57
    The Hatchery Nédime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atremus View Post
    Try casting Implosion near any friendly party member and then come here to tell me it is OP.


    When you know what works and what does not work (or when it does not) you can start taking this knowledge into account. It is called experience.
    Aezechiel (Caster, 8th life) - Kakophonyc (Bard, 2nd life) - Larsenkarden (Cleric, 3rd life) - Lewela (Bard, 6th life) - Punkcanard (dual deathnip centered halfling tempest 3rd life) - Usuldur (Melee, completionist) - Sylentbob (ranger) ... and a couple of mules


    “It seemed to me,' said Wonko the Sane, 'that any civilization that had so far lost its head as to need to include a set of detailed instructions for use in a package of toothpicks, was no longer a civilization in which I could live and stay sane.”
    Douglas Adams, So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish

  18. #58
    Community Member Indianwiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    but your Wizards are safe, it would take several more proxy nerfs before playing a Wizard becomes suboptimal.
    No other class has a history of continuous nerfs like Wizard. And with even bards getting insta-kill, mass hold and freaking Evasion(!), my Wizard is at the bottom of the barrel. I am not calling anyone out, I play a wizard day-in day-out for 4.5 years. I know how it is now compared to MadFloyd days: Pathetic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varinon View Post
    Wail of the Banshee, however, targets two enemies at a time, to a maximum of six targets, over a duration of 6 seconds (the spell says 7, but it only visually lasts past 6).
    .
    I can forgive every developer who worked in DDO and made some mistakes : but NOT Eladrin. He absolutely hated them and in his own personal e-peen contest with MadFloyed (Who loved his Palemaster) turned such an iconic spell into an abomination you typed above. This is NOT wail. This is NOT lvl 9 spell. This is NOT what it used to be: A feeling of rush flowing through when u cast Wail and watch the mobs wither, no time to even let out a death cry.

    Eladrin, where ever you are, I hope you are very happy with what you have done to Wizards.You can proudly put in you resume stating you corrupted an iconic spell such as Wail.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varinon View Post
    The reason Implosion is behind Wail isn't because the effect is that much different, it's how it achieves the effect.
    Implosion only targets one enemy at a time, to a maximum of five targets, over a duration of 10 seconds.
    Wail of the Banshee, however, targets two enemies at a time, to a maximum of six targets, over a duration of 6 seconds (the spell says 7, but it only visually lasts past 6).

    Wail is faster at killing stuff than Implosion is, and can kill one more enemy. That is why Wail is better than Implosion.
    Wail... or Implosion... does is matter? Energy Burst for 20k to everything around every 20 seconds.

    Fact is casters used to be limited by Mana. That is no longer the case for better or worse. I remember when casters were told to save at least 30% of their SP for tough end fights. No one does that any more.
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  20. #60
    Community Member Seikojin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenaphon View Post
    Wail... or Implosion... does is matter? Energy Burst for 20k to everything around every 20 seconds.

    Fact is casters used to be limited by Mana. That is no longer the case for better or worse. I remember when casters were told to save at least 30% of their SP for tough end fights. No one does that any more.
    This.

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