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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    No one else has agro. The blindness ensures that the attack is an SA even if I have the agro. I do this when soloing. Its not hard to circle kite, jump, stealth, and assassinate the blind mob(s) before the other mobs attacking can close the distance. This games AI can be strangled with a cordless phone. Blindness also makes it easy to DPS kill mobs between assassinates, as its like having displacement on for every mob blinded.

    Web traps are awesome.

    It has never taken me three hours to solo a quest. Its about time and a half if I am stealthing AND killing all mobs. I get it done faster than most groups if I am not killing mobs, because I can stealth past most of the trash in many quests.
    How are you blinding mobs?
    Could you post a couple minute video of you on an EE quest using said tactics?
    I would like to evaluate your tactics and make sure they apply on EE runs.

    Do you agree that stealth is no longer important for the assassinate ability? You don't seem to use it. (but is useful for moving by mobs)

    Also, What DC do your web traps have? Does this work in epic elites?
    Last edited by nokowi; 08-05-2014 at 03:43 PM.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokowi View Post
    Please add assassin to the list of unplayable classes in DDO. After 3 years I was excited to finally reach 3x completionist and settle down with my DC 74 Drow assassin. You can search my prior posts stating how much fun I have had playing a rogue in DDO. Sadly, an entire prestige class has been ruined for no reason other than poor game design.

    On assassinate, any surviving mobs now instantly see you. While this might seem like "realism", it makes this class unplayable, because there is no way to be unseen until all mobs are killed. The premier assassin ability is now a joke.

    TWF is now unusable because you don't even get 2 attempts at assassinate (they see you after attempt 1). Double kills are gone. You are no longer hidden after a successful assassinate.

    Congratulations on making the only class that relied on melee positioning, understanding of mob movement, player movement, tactical decisions, and making it a heaping pile of dung. Assassins rely on remaining unseen and this is no longer possible. This used to be one of the most challenging and fun classes to play in DDO. Assassin is now a terrible version of every other melee fighter.
    When did this happen? That last time I played my Assassin (still leveling) was about a month ago, and I've been able to regularly nail two mobs at once, and still remain undetected.

    Or take out a mob when their backs are turned, and the other surrounding mobs don't notice.

    Did this happen with the latest service release?

  3. #103
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    How about "Because I don't want to be a Zombie!"

    And why should every fleshy AM be forced into becoming a Zombie or accept significantly under-powered self healing and absolutely no chance of any healing from divines in party because of the "you're a wizard - you can self heal" attitude that's been prevalent in game for almost as long as I've been playing DDO!
    Well, you could take the bump up to Vampire, and just avoid getting sizzled with light spells.

    As an aside, I'm there with the people who are looking for some sort of decent healing for fleshy AMs. My first wizzy life on my main was fleshy AM. Running without a net forces you to analyze how you do stuff, how to avoid getting hit, and how to one-shot stuff before it sees you. Albeit,m you'll die more often than a fill-fledged PM, but not as often as people claim.

    I truly hate the notion that you either go fleshy PM, or WF AM as being viable for pures. I hate stuff being boiled down to the lowest common denominator. It ends up making stuff boring as hell.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    When did this happen? That last time I played my Assassin (still leveling) was about a month ago, and I've been able to regularly nail two mobs at once, and still remain undetected.

    Or take out a mob when their backs are turned, and the other surrounding mobs don't notice.

    Did this happen with the latest service release?
    With Update 22 (3bc). Most of the good assassins I know have retired their toons. It is that bad.

    You are auto-spotted (by everyone!) after any assassinate to a non-aggro'd mob. In group play, this means 6-8 mobs charging you if you bump into someone or assassinate at the front of the party. It is now a game of Benny Hill Music, waiting for someone else to have agro and running around after kited mobs at slow speed, missing with TWF, etc.

    You can try the old jump, hit stealth method, assassinate method to agro'd mobs, but this is most effective only for mobs standing still (or least not chasing after a kiting party member).

    Chai has suggested web traps work awesome, that it is easy to blind one mob and assassinate them before any other mobs reach you, and that it is easy to solo any quest in an hour. I am skeptical that he is running EE quests but you can hold out for some hope that he might post something (say a EE Cabal For One, or EE Feast or Famine run). Sneaking at the front of the party is gone.
    Last edited by nokowi; 08-06-2014 at 09:15 AM.

  5. #105
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokowi View Post
    How are you blinding mobs?
    Could you post a couple minute video of you on an EE quest using said tactics?
    I would like to evaluate your tactics and make sure they apply on EE runs.

    Do you agree that stealth is no longer important for the assassinate ability? You don't seem to use it. (but is useful for moving by mobs)

    Also, What DC do your web traps have? Does this work in epic elites?
    Radiance weapon, Blindness traps.

    Traps are based on level + int mod + disable skill.

    Also any helpless mob is auto SA. For instance, if your rogue is in FotW, uses an adrenaline to knock a mob down, its in "helpless" mode, so if you drop into stealth and hit assassinate, it works.

    And yes, "stealth" as in sneaking up to the mobs, is FUBAR in DDO right now because apparently even with over 100 hide and move silently, a fighter type mob with no spot or listen as a class skill can just see right through it. Its like the game isn't even paying attention to D&D mechanics and is just rolling probability dice based on proximity.

    The trick is to use things that put the mob into a state where your attacks are considered sneak attacks, regardless if the mob has agro, sees you, etc.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  6. #106
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    Totally agree.
    After 4 years playing the same role I give up assassin and went acro.
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Radiance weapon, Blindness traps.

    Traps are based on level + int mod + disable skill.

    Also any helpless mob is auto SA. For instance, if your rogue is in FotW, uses an adrenaline to knock a mob down, its in "helpless" mode, so if you drop into stealth and hit assassinate, it works.

    And yes, "stealth" as in sneaking up to the mobs, is FUBAR in DDO right now because apparently even with over 100 hide and move silently, a fighter type mob with no spot or listen as a class skill can just see right through it. Its like the game isn't even paying attention to D&D mechanics and is just rolling probability dice based on proximity.

    The trick is to use things that put the mob into a state where your attacks are considered sneak attacks, regardless if the mob has agro, sees you, etc.
    What is your DC? Please show use your methods work on EE. I can do my own testing and post, but I would prefer if you back up your own methods so that those reading can learn what DC"s they need to be effective on solo EE runs.

    I can easily see these tactics working on EN or EH (no posted DC's needed). On EN/EH it is often faster to NOT use assassinate because dps is faster. Throwing down blind traps on EN/EH will likely be slower than just killing everything on EN/EH.
    Last edited by nokowi; 08-06-2014 at 09:32 AM.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post

    Traps are based on level + int mod + disable skill.
    Actually, a very good point. That now makes the traps look very attractive and can make a PM eyes water. Traps are rarely used atm, especially in groups as they are slow to set up. However, the DCs on them for artis and especially rogue mechanics are pretty high.

    A probably guess at the DC at lvl 28 for a rogue using the formula is 28+30+80=108 (And that is a very conservative guess). Traps are not limited to web either. Tried them once a long time ago, might be worth going back and taking another look at them. Although the bottle alchemical hand grenades are totally lame.
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  9. #109
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokowi View Post
    What is your DC? Please show use your methods work on EE. I can do my own testing and post, but I would prefer if you back up your own methods so that those reading can learn what DC"s they need to be effective on solo EE runs.

    I can easily see these tactics working on EN or EH (no posted DC's needed). On EN/EH it is often faster to NOT use assassinate because dps is faster. Throwing down blind traps on EN/EH will likely be slower than just killing everything on EN/EH.
    Slower, yes, but also less risky.

    If you are worried about time, better to get a group. Soloing is always longer unless youre stealthing past the mobs, something a rogue can do better than any other class with invis.

    Traps do work on EE, but the damage ones aren't even noticed. Better to go with web/blind, or dance. Radiance weapons are still awesome.

    If you are trying to solo EE on a pure rogue, and are worried about the time factor, I recommend rolling another class that solos EE in far less time. It can be done on a pure rogue, if you are patient, but not being patient is what gets you killed. Its not a run in and swing weapon direct confrontation wade in and destroy class. If you could DPS with impunity and not worry about suffering a bout of SMDS (sudden melee death syndrome) then DPS would always be faster. Soloing EE on a pure rogue, this will not be the case.

    Patience is the key. If worried about the time factor, roll a different class, like a sorc.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #110
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relem View Post
    Actually, a very good point. That now makes the traps look very attractive and can make a PM eyes water. Traps are rarely used atm, especially in groups as they are slow to set up. However, the DCs on them for artis and especially rogue mechanics are pretty high.

    A probably guess at the DC at lvl 28 for a rogue using the formula is 28+30+80=108 (And that is a very conservative guess). Traps are not limited to web either. Tried them once a long time ago, might be worth going back and taking another look at them. Although the bottle alchemical hand grenades are totally lame.
    Yes. The damage traps aren't worth the parts. Make CC traps - they are awesome.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Radiance weapon, Blindness traps.

    Traps are based on level + int mod + disable skill.

    Also any helpless mob is auto SA. For instance, if your rogue is in FotW, uses an adrenaline to knock a mob down, its in "helpless" mode, so if you drop into stealth and hit assassinate, it works.

    And yes, "stealth" as in sneaking up to the mobs, is FUBAR in DDO right now because apparently even with over 100 hide and move silently, a fighter type mob with no spot or listen as a class skill can just see right through it. Its like the game isn't even paying attention to D&D mechanics and is just rolling probability dice based on proximity.

    The trick is to use things that put the mob into a state where your attacks are considered sneak attacks, regardless if the mob has agro, sees you, etc.
    1. I freely admit I have never really used traps other than sound traps for the "backpack" method in the Red Fens. That's why I am asking for input.

    Here is what I see for magical Trap DC's online for magical traps (is this outdated?)

    "These traps function similarly to mines, except that when they activate, the spell is cast. Since these spells are solely derived from the scrolls, the durations are very short in general, and the DC's very low."


    Normal Rogue: 10 + Spell Level + Intelligence Modifier (magical trap DC)

    Assuming you have about a 60 intelligence, this gives you a DC of less than 40. Does this really work on EE's?


    2. After you lay your first trap, blind mobs and assassinate one of them, how do you blind the next mob? DO you lay out a string of 5-6 traps before you engage anyone? Are you setting a 2nd trap as 5 mobs chase you around the room? Your prior posts suggest mobs are chasing you as you continually blind mobs.

  12. #112
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokowi View Post
    1. I freely admit I have never really used traps other than sound traps for the "backpack" method in the Red Fens. That's why I am asking for input.

    Here is what I see for magical Trap DC's online for magical traps (is this outdated?)

    "These traps function similarly to mines, except that when they activate, the spell is cast. Since these spells are solely derived from the scrolls, the durations are very short in general, and the DC's very low."


    Normal Rogue: 10 + Spell Level + Intelligence Modifier (magical trap DC)

    Assuming you have about a 60 intelligence, this gives you a DC of less than 40. Does this really work on EE's?
    The Wikipedia article you quoted that from was written right after trap making came out and hasn't been modified correctly. It still refers to "mechanic I and mechanic II" enhancements.

    Quote Originally Posted by nokowi View Post
    2. After you lay your first trap, blind mobs and assassinate one of them, how do you blind the next mob? DO you lay out a string of 5-6 traps before you engage anyone? Are you setting a 2nd trap as 5 mobs chase you around the room? Your prior posts suggest mobs are chasing you as you continually blind mobs.
    The traps aren't all single target. Also, radiance weapons rule for rogues, and most assassinate-able mobs will also be blind-able.

    Heres a video of a player using traps to blind and web CR 62 shadar-kai assassins. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tttts37mGVI

    The first trap he puts down is a web, and he assassinates the shadar-kai while the mob is webbed. The second trap he puts down is blindness. It blinds most of the mobs in the room. The third trap he puts down is a hypno trap which stops both mobs chasing him.

    This player also makes good use of contingencies, such as Improved Invisibility.
    Last edited by Chai; 08-06-2014 at 12:12 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The Wikipedia article you quoted that from was written right after trap making came out and hasn't been modified correctly. It still refers to "mechanic I and mechanic II" enhancements.



    The traps aren't all single target. Also, radiance weapons rule for rogues, and most assassinate-able mobs will also be blind-able.

    Heres a video of a player using traps to blind and web CR 62 shadar-kai assassins. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tttts37mGVI

    The first trap he puts down is a web, and he assassinates the shadar-kai while the mob is webbed. The second trap he puts down is blindness. It blinds most of the mobs in the room. The third trap he puts down is a hypno trap which stops both mobs chasing him.

    This player also makes good use of contingencies, such as Improved Invisibility.
    Thanks! I wasn't aware that trap DC's/time had been changed. Honestly I gave up on them a long time ago. I will do some play testing and report back to this thread.

    DC's will be ridiculous if its Level+IntMod+Disable (~140 for me)

    I am done TR'ing so most of my play is now helping others and raids. I may decide to skip groups entirely (it's not fun being at the back of the party) and instead just skulk around by myself (until they decide to make hide/move silently useful again).

    The kill rate from this video seems to be about 1 mob per minute. If this is the new norm, I suggest that this already niche class will almost completely disappear. Judging by the damage taken in the 1 minute clip, I am skeptical that even this one room got cleared before death. Is this really a viable method for quest completion. Do people really complete an entire quest this way?

    I will go complete a quest in the next day or two and report back...
    Last edited by nokowi; 08-06-2014 at 02:06 PM.

  14. #114
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokowi View Post
    Thanks! I wasn't aware that trap DC's/time had been changed. Honestly I gave up on them a long time ago. I will do some play testing and report back to this thread.

    DC's will be ridiculous if its Level+IntMod+Disable (~140 for me)

    I am done TR'ing so most of my play is now helping others and raids. I may decide to skip groups entirely (it's not fun being at the back of the party) and instead just skulk around by myself (until they decide to make hide/move silently useful again).

    The kill rate from this video seems to be about 1 mob per minute. If this is the new norm, I suggest that this already niche class will almost completely disappear. Judging by the damage taken in the 1 minute clip, I am skeptical that even this one room got cleared before death. Is this really a viable method for quest completion. Do people really complete an entire quest this way?

    I will go complete a quest in the next day or two and report back...
    He was showing how traps work and that it can be done even in the higher end game. He was not focusing on rate of kills.

    This does require patience however, and kill rate wont be optimal compared to the direct confrontation classes and kiting builds who can toss persistent AOE or CC and nuke.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokowi View Post
    Please add assassin to the list of unplayable classes in DDO. After 3 years I was excited to finally reach 3x completionist and settle down with my DC 74 Drow assassin. You can search my prior posts stating how much fun I have had playing a rogue in DDO. Sadly, an entire prestige class has been ruined for no reason other than poor game design.

    On assassinate, any surviving mobs now instantly see you. While this might seem like "realism", it makes this class unplayable, because there is no way to be unseen until all mobs are killed. The premier assassin ability is now a joke.

    TWF is now unusable because you don't even get 2 attempts at assassinate (they see you after attempt 1). Double kills are gone. You are no longer hidden after a successful assassinate.

    Congratulations on making the only class that relied on melee positioning, understanding of mob movement, player movement, tactical decisions, and making it a heaping pile of dung. Assassins rely on remaining unseen and this is no longer possible. This used to be one of the most challenging and fun classes to play in DDO. Assassin is now a terrible version of every other melee fighter.

    If you are thinking about trying out an assassin, DON'T! It now ranks below barbarian in playability.

    In an attempt to change aggro to ranged toons, dev's ruined an entire prestige class...

    HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE THIS BAD AT GAME DESIGN?



    AMEN!!! My rogue assassin has been sitting on the sidelines since the nerf.....

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    He was showing how traps work and that it can be done even in the higher end game. He was not focusing on rate of kills.

    This does require patience however, and kill rate wont be optimal compared to the direct confrontation classes and kiting builds who can toss persistent AOE or CC and nuke.
    Nobody who would play a rogue actually cares about this comparison (rogue vs caster). The question is not rogue vs some other build. It is about how rogues (particularly assassins) can succeed in the current environment (agro changes). It is whether trap use is an effective option when compared to other rogue abilities. So yes kill rate matters, as does survivability and completion time. You can care about all of these things and still play a rogue. It is about getting the most out of the class that you enjoy playing. Bluffing around the corner seems a much more effective (safety/time saved) option than the video you referenced.

    I do appreciate the post and your contributions to this thread. I am still practicing with traps, so I am not making any judgement yet about trap effectiveness.

    I did not have 100% trap DC success rate in the same quest on EE (Thrill of the Hunt). Of course I could be doing something wrong. Traps were made with lvl 28 toon, 68 int, 108 disable device score. I don't think the trap DC is char level+intmod+disable as this would have been DC 165 (28+29+108).

    Is there an official post stating trap DC is level+IntMod+Disable?

    Something like Spell Level + IntMod + Disable/2 (DC 3+29+54 = 86 for me) seems more likely to me.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yalinaa View Post
    What did you expect? After layoffs DDO is low on developers... Quality of life "issues", horrible lag problems, bugs bugs and more bugs... and of course those nasty expl.oits everyone is talking 'bout.... And what Turbine does? Hire a guy to work on... MELEE POWER!!!

    They can't surprise me anymore.
    You might be surprised to know that the number of DDO developers has increased with a couple of fresh faces from Asheron's Call coming onboard. Surprised by that?

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokowi View Post
    Please add assassin to the list of unplayable classes in DDO. After 3 years I was excited to finally reach 3x completionist and settle down with my DC 74 Drow assassin. You can search my prior posts stating how much fun I have had playing a rogue in DDO. Sadly, an entire prestige class has been ruined for no reason other than poor game design.

    On assassinate, any surviving mobs now instantly see you. While this might seem like "realism", it makes this class unplayable, because there is no way to be unseen until all mobs are killed. The premier assassin ability is now a joke.

    TWF is now unusable because you don't even get 2 attempts at assassinate (they see you after attempt 1). Double kills are gone. You are no longer hidden after a successful assassinate.

    Congratulations on making the only class that relied on melee positioning, understanding of mob movement, player movement, tactical decisions, and making it a heaping pile of dung. Assassins rely on remaining unseen and this is no longer possible. This used to be one of the most challenging and fun classes to play in DDO. Assassin is now a terrible version of every other melee fighter.

    If you are thinking about trying out an assassin, DON'T! It now ranks below barbarian in playability.

    In an attempt to change aggro to ranged toons, dev's ruined an entire prestige class...

    HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE THIS BAD AT GAME DESIGN?
    two of my guildies play sick ee assassins. they do it by cooperating and coordinating with other players. if youre saying soloing as an assassin is hard, i get that, but ive seen mean assassins work on ee, because they use skill. its not easy to do, and takes a lot of thinking, is that a bad thing?

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strider1963 View Post
    AMEN!!! My rogue assassin has been sitting on the sidelines since the nerf.....
    Heh I made mine my swasher build since he had all my hot finesse weapons anyway. I really hate the agro change...I like that it gives the pews something fun to do but its a drag on the assassin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokowi View Post

    Something like Spell Level + IntMod + Disable/2 (DC 3+29+54 = 86 for me) seems more likely to me.
    This is the actual formula unless you take the Improved Traps ability in the Mechanic tree which increase the DCs of magical traps and also increases the percentage of the Disable Device part of the equation for elemental traps. So for Chai's DCs to be as they are, then it would seem that the percentage increase is happening to all traps meaning that either the ability is not working as stated (kind of like Unbridled Fury recharging Fury on ranged attacks even though it states on melee) or the traps are not categorized properly.
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