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  1. #41
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    I have been player my old terrible 18/2 cleric the past week since I've run out of stuff to do on my good characters. I'll heal people if needed, that part of the game never bother me. With EDs and the new enhancements divines have a zillion options.

    Here's a new flash for the people who have not evolved and still play sponge toons: you serve no purpose. it's rude, but it's the truth. Divines are powerful, have been for a long time. They don't need you. If you need them you add no value to the group.

  2. #42
    Community Member PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    I'm all for more options, but my main point was that we should have an incentive to go non-self healing.
    It is a tragedy that the worst non-self-healing class (Barbarian) basically gets ZERO advantage to make up for this fact. That needs to get fixed.

  3. #43
    The Hatchery kierg10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    Here's a new flash for the people who have not evolved and still play sponge toons: you serve no purpose. it's rude, but it's the truth. Divines are powerful, have been for a long time. They don't need you. If you need them you add no value to the group.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    What I think is OP is anyone who uses implemented game mechanics, standard game features, or their own skill to be more effective in quests then I am - so I then find the time to post complaints about their use of implemented game mechanics, standard game features, or their own skill thus making me OP on the forums.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    Here's a new flash for the people who have not evolved and still play sponge toons: you serve no purpose. it's rude, but it's the truth. Divines are powerful, have been for a long time. They don't need you. If you need them you add no value to the group.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    It is a tragedy that the worst non-self-healing class (Barbarian) basically gets ZERO advantage to make up for this fact. That needs to get fixed.
    Yep. I hope they address this with the barb changes. The big issue with barbarians is that the penalties from rage aren't worth it.

    I really hope with Frenzied Berserker at least they go the route of increasing the core compentencies of the class - melee DPS, PRR, HP and Dodge, ect. to make giving up self-healing worth it and not just slapping a vampiric effect or heal over time effect onto the barb trees and saying "OK, all fixed!". That would essentially make barbs the same as fighters which would defeat the purpose of balancing in the first place...to give us more viable playstyles.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    So everyone with a clue would go back to playing WF arcanes, PM's and offensive caster or melee clerics, druids and FVS?

    You seem to be missing that those changes were made to bring the rest of the game to the level of these characters, which includes those "healers" the rest needed.

    Frankly, I think this was the right way to go if they wanted pugs to be the norm. Because not only does it eliminate the need to wait for that "healer" it eliminates the need for that "healer" to be the best player in the group to make up for the bad play of the others.
    Read my whole post, you left off the last part where I said I don't want to nerf self healing as it currently stands.

    I simply want to buff non-self sufficient DPS to make the "trinity" style viable again. In my opinion it currently is not viable.

    Yes, casters were and still are OP compared to melees. But that's a different issue and self-healing is only one part of several that made casters a more optimal choice now and back when cap was level 20.
    Last edited by axel15810; 07-29-2014 at 03:29 PM.

  6. #46
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    As a long time player of Divine Classes I enjoy playing a role that works to make it so a party can go beyond what they normally could.

    A good party is greater than the sum of its parts.

    Now because I've been playing since '06 I've learned tricks from SP conservation, to party triage, to how to not die when you are being charged by half-a-dozen mobs.

    The problem that happened is that people stopped working together because the focus went from having fun run quests to getting past lives as quickly as possible.

    Divines have always been powerful, but the problem is that some people felt that they should only sit on the sideline and keep the party alive, which was only 1/3 rd of their abilities.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Trinity does still work. It's just that it isn't a pug friendly way to play. I that's how one wants to play it's best to do so in a guild/static group environment.

    Even if those changes were made that wouldn't fix the problem with trinity pugs. Which is that the "healers" are fine as is and would just group up with other "healers" or others that can take care of themselves. Leaving those who choose to use those new super DPS abilities you want to add waiting to start quests, at least until they figure out that dedicated healer is a position best described with the term "hireling" and go get one.
    I disagree. I don't think the trinity style is viable for 2 major reasons -

    - Using one party member as a straight healer is not viable since non-self healing melees don't do enough DPS to make up for the party DPS lost by taking a healer which will do very little DPS. Granted there are healing builds that can do pretty good DPS and heal simultaneously so this point could be argued.

    - Tanking in the classic S&B heavy armor sense is not viable in EE and in other difficulties not needed in most situations. Also they absorb too much damage since there is no way to reduce magic damage and heavy armor is underpowered. So taking a tank is extremely situational.The DPS lost by taking a S&B tank isn't worth it. Hopefully the upcoming armor changes help with this.

    Overall there just isn't enough synergy to be gained in a "trinity" style currently to make up for all the DPS lost by using support characters, healers, a tank, ect.

    Sure you can still do it, but the party will be extremely gimped. There is no classic party setup that does as much DPS or is as survivable as a group of 6 self healing casters, self healing ranged toons, ect.

    I agree that waiting for a healer is a problem and I don't want to take away the option of building for self-sufficiency. But if we gave non-self healing some carrots as I've described in this thread people would absolutely play them. And as a need for more healing/support types arose, more toons would be created to fill that role. And I agree there will never be enough healers probably to fill the need and because of that anyone who doesn't like the idea of waiting for a healer ocassionally can get some friends in a guild, use a hireling or build a self-sufficient toon.

    I just want both self-healing and non-self healing to be viable options.
    Last edited by axel15810; 07-29-2014 at 03:51 PM.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    It is a tragedy that the worst non-self-healing class (Barbarian) basically gets ZERO advantage to make up for this fact. That needs to get fixed.
    If the barbs did about 40-50% more damage than the Centered Kensais they'd be worth healing.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    Read my whole post, you left off the last part where I said I don't want to nerf self healing as it currently stands.

    I simply want to buff non-self sufficient DPS to make the "trinity" style viable again. In my opinion it currently is not viable.

    Yes, casters were and still are OP compared to melees. But that's a different issue and self-healing is only one part of several that made casters a more optimal choice now and back when cap was level 20.
    I think you are confusing builds that are straight up dps and builds that are self sufficient and dps. I play straight up dumb dumb dps characters that use pots as their self sufficiency. they are actually very powerful and can kill very quickly, but their problem is that they cant keep up with others that are able to push a button and be fully healed. I might have to back off and heal up losing out on dps, while others can just stand there, push a button to heal and not bat an eye. if someone is watching my back the whole time I can get the quest done efficiently and fast if need be. I see a lot more lack of dps in groups when people are trying to build for umd to scroll heal, invest in gear, feats, enhancements, etc to boost Cocoon.
    #MakeDDOGreatAgain

    You are the one choosing not to play alts.

    Casual player now investing way less than I used to into the game, playing 1-3 months at a time and still want nothing to do with Reaper. #improvepuggrouping#alldifficultiesmatter

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKoz View Post
    Like I said in another post, if you don't want to heal, make a DPS toon.
    Nobody wants to heal others. (or rather almost nobody)
    spending your time watching everybody's health bars instead of doing things yourself simply isn't that much fun.

    Waiting an hour for a healer to run a raid isn't a game I am willing to play any more. I have better things to do with my time that wait around for an hour.

  11. #51
    Community Member Lallajulia's Avatar
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    i guess not multiclassing is bad, but you do not like current state of balance of classes.
    they try to give more weight into pure builds. last bard overhauls... new pally is coming.
    but i think game went too far to be team work game anymore. borders between classes almost do not exist. there is no real divide between roles in combat. in fact, there is no "roles", combat wise.

    about healbots. i love play healbots. i would love play them now. but... there is no need. players do not need heals. run around with heal specced cleric is just silly now. by doing that player accomplish nothing.
    i still play healbots, a lot, in fact, just in rift. when i feel i want that portion of fun i go there and i like feeling to be on the edge, heal raid, feel others are dependent on me. if i fail, others will fail. same as tank, love play tank. if i fail keep boss aggro, few seconds and team is dead. miss adds and all dead. in ddo? it all just not matter. ddo is game of relax. and that is not bad too. you can easy/peasy run around, smash things, fry some poor kobold into burger and with ease go to next dungeon.
    Last edited by Lallajulia; 07-29-2014 at 05:13 PM.
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  12. #52
    2015 DDO Players Council Sebastrd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKoz View Post
    With the past few updates, I have noticed a trend in questing. Maybe it is because I am an old school D&D player (started with Edition 1 rules) but in my opinion, multi-class toons suck! Here is my thought as to why......if you look at the lfms and quest alot, you know that everyone wants self-healing/sufficient (BYOH) toons. Multi-class allows players to be able to do that. But, it also means that there are no dedicated healers for the party members that may not be able to heal themselves as quickly as having a healer. A DPS toon is a good example. Those that run the newest raids, Temple of the Deathwyrm and Fire on Thunder Peak know those quests are DPS dependent. The more dps, the faster the mobs are dead, lowering the spawn rates and lag issues. A toon built for DPS can also have their healing capabilities but taking the time to stop and heal themselves during battle is not an efficient use of a toon (imho). Battle Clerics (again IMHO) have never been a viable option (not enough heals and not enough dps) until the last couple updates. So now, parties are nothing but heal thy self and some players become the brunt of the jokes from the party for dieing (some several times) during quests due to the fact they have to stop beating down a mob to keep themselves heal. What ever happened to the DPS in front, casters in the middle and healers taking up the rear approach to questing? It disappeared with multi-classing.

    Koz
    Nobody plays this game to be your babysitter. Every class has a way to self-heal. Part of improving as a player is becoming self-sufficient. You are entitled to personal preferences about game play, and I respect that. However, your preferences should not dictate how others are required to play the game. If you choose to play a one-dimensional character and die frequently, that's on you and I have no sympathy.

    There are plenty of pure clerics in this game that would love to follow you around and heal your every ailment. They're called "hirelings", and their folders are 75% off right now.

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    It's always a shame when the hammer of poor design choices smashes the fun of player tactical adaptation.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    Yep. I hope they address this with the barb changes. The big issue with barbarians is that the penalties from rage aren't worth it.

    I really hope with Frenzied Berserker at least they go the route of increasing the core compentencies of the class - melee DPS, PRR, HP and Dodge, ect. to make giving up self-healing worth it and not just slapping a vampiric effect or heal over time effect onto the barb trees and saying "OK, all fixed!". That would essentially make barbs the same as fighters which would defeat the purpose of balancing in the first place...to give us more viable playstyles.
    How would not adding ways to keep the character from becoming a soul stone be in any way "worth it"? Unless they make it so over the top as to be able to kill everything in the game before they die themselves, all doing that would do is make them more of the same as they already are.

    If you think that such characters will cause others to feel they are best off playing as a glorified hireling, I believe you are mistaken. as it stands, the is no requirement for such characters in the game, so not many are going to compromise their own fun to keep those who play them on their feet.

    That's the crux of the issue. As long as everyone else can get along without that sponge, they will.

  14. #54
    Community Member doubledge's Avatar
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    Default Think of the repercussions.

    OP, while your idea is a valid point of thought, you haven't truly thought things through. Allow me to illustrate your point of view.

    - Multiclass is too confusing! people keep making crappy builds! Remove multiclassing!

    - My barbarian sucks cause he can't heal! Make barbarians able to heal!

    - OMG other classes still have evasion! nerf them all!

    - Okay my pure barbarian is now good. Now where is everyone? the marketplace is entirely empty!


    TLDR: Multiclass is the only thing DDO does that most other MMOs lack. It adds customization, and is one of the major reasons we still have people playing DDO. If you hate it, go play a different MMO.
    Last edited by doubledge; 07-29-2014 at 06:04 PM.


  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    Read my whole post, you left off the last part where I said I don't want to nerf self healing as it currently stands.

    I simply want to buff non-self sufficient DPS to make the "trinity" style viable again. In my opinion it currently is not viable.

    Yes, casters were and still are OP compared to melees. But that's a different issue and self-healing is only one part of several that made casters a more optimal choice now and back when cap was level 20.
    How is trinity not viable?

    Make a static group. Get one person make a heal bot and another a tank and the rest can play in easy mode. It just doesn't work so well in pugs as most who would qualify as a healer have no need of a tank or generally much desire to play just to make the game easy for others.

    In order to get what you seem to want the damage potential of those "healers" would need to be nerfed to almost nothing, while the self healing ability of everything else that has decent damage potential would also have to. Most players simply don't want to wait for all the right pieces to assemble, nor have to rely on some unknown stranger to make up for weaknesses in their own character.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    How would not adding ways to keep the character from becoming a soul stone be in any way "worth it"? Unless they make it so over the top as to be able to kill everything in the game before they die themselves, all doing that would do is make them more of the same as they already are.
    I never said adding self healing wouldn't be "worth it". I said I wanted the DPS of a barb to be worth the rage penalties. Adding self-healing to barbs is a bad idea as I've already described because it would make them too similar to fighters, this defeats the whole purpose of balancing - which is adding additional viable builds. Barbs in this game have always been designed to support a non-self healing melee DPS style. Let's make that worth it instead of transforming barbs into something we already have plenty of support for in other classes, self-healing melee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post

    If you think that such characters will cause others to feel they are best off playing as a glorified hireling, I believe you are mistaken. as it stands, the is no requirement for such characters in the game, so not many are going to compromise their own fun to keep those who play them on their feet.

    That's the crux of the issue. As long as everyone else can get along without that sponge, they will.
    If non-self healing toons were hands down the best DPS, it would create a bigger need for healing types. We'd see more for them for that reason. It's basic supply and demand. Just look at pre-MOTU era. We definitely had more healing types then than we do now as they were actually needed. I agree we'll never have enough since most don't like playing support style toons, but we'd certainly have more.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    How is trinity not viable?
    I explained that in a prior post in this thread. See post #47 in this thread for a detailed explanation.

    In summary the synergy from the trinity is not near worth the DPS loss. That's why.

    I'm not saying you can't play that way, it just doesn't hold a candle to 6 self-sufficient casters or ranged toons.
    Last edited by axel15810; 07-29-2014 at 07:25 PM.

  18. #58
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    Having to rely on others to heal you in any game is a stupid mechanic and I am glad DDO has moved away from it. I just watched Conan the Destroyer on late night, hadn't seen in it ages how fun is it if Conan has to stop and get healed by a cleric before fighting Dagon? Silly.

  19. #59
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    every smart player, pnp o DDO, ever looked for means of survivability. A dead character was no fun to play even at the good old table. Multiclassing has been around D&D for decades now, seems you just are not able to move on.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrix View Post
    Nobody wants to heal others. (or rather almost nobody)
    spending your time watching everybody's health bars instead of doing things yourself simply isn't that much fun.

    Waiting an hour for a healer to run a raid isn't a game I am willing to play any more. I have better things to do with my time that wait around for an hour.
    Yah... it's time consuming, but most importantly.. Online games are no longer old school style anymore. Almost in every game healers can dps, and that's something people really like. We just can't help some games like DDO, where there is an option to multi class and that allows you to do whatever you wish.

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