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  1. #521
    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    Now this looks more like a Tier 5 than the current plan without being overpowered. I like it.
    Thanks, I'm not sure if the % chance to regen a smite is possible. If not "When this is a critical attack, the user regains 1 smite"

  2. #522

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    I see how you incorporated the vorpal stun into the favored weapons, but how about removing favored weapons (which I hate) altogether and just go with a stunning line?

    Tier 3, 2 AP: Stun Chaotic Evil Outsiders for 3 seconds on vorpal
    Tier 4, 2 AP: Stun Evil Outsiders for 3 seconds on vorpal, requires tier 3
    Tier 5, 2 AP: Stun all evil mobs for 3 seconds on vorpal, requires tier 4

    This gives it some (limited) utility in tier 3 and tier 4, and then for 6 AP and committing to a tier 5 it gets some teeth. For the tier 1 and 2 slots, meh, I can't think of any appropriate low-level enhancements right at this moment so for now I'd just leave them blank.


    I was also thinking how about adding an ameliorating strike-style effect to the tier 5 great cleave enhancement?

  3. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    handwraps are NOT melee weapons. The game doesn't consider them weapons at all.
    Get a Handwrap from your inventory and read the description... notice how the word "Weapon" shows up all over the place? Open the Auction House and look for what category Handwraps are under: "Weapons".

    The truth is that handwraps are melee weapons; the game does consider them weapons, except when it doesn't.

  4. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    First, Holy Sword doesn't give +2 total crit range. It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, the spell only provides a +1 crit range.
    If my crit range is 15-20 and I cast Holy Sword, I will have 13-20. It gave me +2 total crit range. Saying it did is correct.

    Are you claiming that casting Holy Sword will only give me 14-20 crit range? That would be new information, and not consistent with how other Competence bonuses to crit range have worked in DDO. I haven't seen a developer announcement that it'll work differently than the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    By using that logic, Tenser's Transformation's +4 Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution and +6 AC really provides more than more than +30 Strength, Dexterity and Constitution and more than +250 AC
    If I have 20 Strength and 50 AC and I cast Tenser's Transformation, I will have 24 Strength and 56 AC. It did not give me 30 Strength and 250 AC. Saying it did is not correct.

    If I had somehow had a feat which caused Strength bonuses to be multiplied by 7.5, then Tenser's Transformation would've brought me from 20 to 50 Strength, and I could rightfully claim it gave me +30 Strength. But there's no feat like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Now if you include the enhancement trees, yes Holy Sword would be a comparable boost to what those classes get by level 12 to 14.
    That's what I was saying in the post you're responding to: the new Holy Sword spell contains a whole lot of the Paladin class's power, while the KOTC tree isn't great in comparison.

    I would prefer if more of the power was in enhancements and not as much in one spell (at least not at the level 14 version).
    Last edited by Scrabbler; 08-04-2014 at 05:05 AM.

  5. #525
    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I see how you incorporated the vorpal stun into the favored weapons, but how about removing favored weapons (which I hate) altogether and just go with a stunning line?

    Tier 3, 2 AP: Stun Chaotic Evil Outsiders for 3 seconds on vorpal
    Tier 4, 2 AP: Stun Evil Outsiders for 3 seconds on vorpal, requires tier 3
    Tier 5, 2 AP: Stun all evil mobs for 3 seconds on vorpal, requires tier 4

    This gives it some (limited) utility in tier 3 and tier 4, and then for 6 AP and committing to a tier 5 it gets some teeth. For the tier 1 and 2 slots, meh, I can't think of any appropriate low-level enhancements right at this moment so for now I'd just leave them blank.


    I was also thinking how about adding an ameliorating strike-style effect to the tier 5 great cleave enhancement?
    I'm not 100% on the favored weapons, perhaps bonuses to them should be tied to actual paladin levels, not enhancements. I do think favored weapons need some kind of boost though, given almost everyone I know of ignores them. I've kind of met you half way now, but with a slightly higher cost. I do think 8ap is reasonable given the power of the enhancement.

    I was considering ameliorating strike too, but given that there's no positive spell power boosts currently, nor extra lay on hands, I felt like maybe it would be better saved for the next paladin tree.

    I've just removed the immunity to level drain, it probably won't be popular, but I feel like the replacement spells is better.
    Last edited by fTdOmen; 08-04-2014 at 05:43 PM.

  6. #526
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddong View Post
    What about changing the paladin spell levels? As it is they get their 2nd spell at 15, but it isn't until 19 that they get their 3rd spell. Getting zeal at 15 (I assume everyone will take holy sword at 14) just screams to me splash 5 levels of something else for a better 5th tier enhancement.

    To me it would make sense to spread the fruit around and give the second spell at 16 and the third spell at 18.
    Most builds benefit from multiclassing. Why can't Paladins have at least 1-6 levels to multi-class with?

  7. #527
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Thanks gents for focusing on ideas for the actual trees. I agree too much focus on the one Holy Sword spell. Agree need to get some appealing (but maybe not must have or be totally gimp) T5s and capstones.

  8. #528
    Community Member Kalevor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fTdOmen View Post
    My Suggested Improvements to the KOTC Tree

    Tier One (0 AP Required)

    • Your favored weapon gains +1 Enhancement bonus. (1ap)
    • Extra Turning: +(1/2/3) Turn Attempts per rest.
    • Divine Light: Your Turn Undead ability now also deals 6d6/12d6/18d6 light damage to nearby undead. Scales with 200% Melee Power.
    • Exalted Smite: You gain 2/4 additional use of Smite Evil per rest.
    • Rally: Channel Divinity: Remove fear from nearby allies. You and the affected allies gain a +2/+4/+6 Morale Bonus to Will Saves vs. Fear effects and a +1/+2/+3 Morale Bonus to Attack and Damage for 60 seconds. still a very weak ability, morale bonus to attack and damage have a LOT of competition... sometimes is better to get rid of something than try to improve without result...

    Tier Two (5 AP Required)
    • Your favored weapon gains +1 Enhancement bonus. (1ap)
    • Improved Turning: You count as (1/2/3) levels higher when turning undead, and add (2/4/6) to the number of hit dice turned, Rank 3 regenerate one turn every 180 seconds. i think that change improved turning for endless turning is the way to go...
    • Divine Might: Channel Divinity: You gain an Insight bonus to Strength equal to your Charisma modifier for 30/60/120 seconds. (Cooldown 20 seconds)
    • Exalted Cleave: Shares its cooldown with the Cleave feat. Make a sweeping attack against all nearby enemies for +1/+2/+3[W] damage.
    • Action Boost Damage: Activate to gain a (+10/+20/+30)% Action Boost bonus to Melee Power for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds).


    Tier Three (10 AP Required)
    • Your Favored Weapon Gains +1 Enhancement bonus. Additionally any equipped weapon gains On Vorpal: Stuns Chaotic Evil outsiders for 3 seconds. (2ap)
    • Divine Sacrifice: Giving up some of your life force to win the battle, you empower your next blow against your foe. This attack deals an additional (5/7/9)d6 Light damage and increases the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1, but costs you 5 hp and 1 sp, whether or not the attack is successful. Light damage scales with 100% Melee Power. with the decrease of melee power this and others abilities in the three sould be higher boosted... maybe 150%??
    • Vigor of Life: +10 Positive Healing Amplification. -10% less damage from Negative Energy.
    • Exalted Smite: Active: An improved smite that adds +1/+1/+2 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier and 0/+1/+2 to your weapon's critical threat range.
    • Str or Cha: +1 Strength or Charisma

    Tier Four (20 AP Required)
    • Your favored weapon gains +1 Enhancement Bonus. Additionally any equipped weapon gains On Vorpal: Stuns Evil outsiders for 3 seconds. (2ap)
    • Passion: Your Divine Sacrifice ability gains: On Damage: Gain (5/10/15) temporary spell points if you strike an undead or evil outsider an evil creature with this attack. don't like it... i think should be other forms to enhace divine sacrifice... maybe a further invest in hp sacrifice for a nice buff? an aoe burst of light, what you think?
    • Vigor of Life: +10 Positive Healing Amplification. -10% less damage from Negative Energy.
    • Empowered Smite: Your Smite Evil and Exalted Smite abilities now grant a buff that increases Melee Power by 10 for 10 seconds.
    • Str or Cha: +1 Strength or Charisma

    Tier Five (40 AP Required)
    • Your Favored weapon gains +1 Enhancement Bonus & On Vorpal: Additionally any equipped weapon gains On Vorpal: Stuns Undead and enemies with Evil Alignment for 3seconds. (2ap)
    • Vigor of Life: +10 Positive Healing Amplification. -10% less damage from Negative Energy.
    • Holy Retribution: Executes a powerful holy strike against the target that deals +1/+3/+5[W] damage. (Cooldown: 25/20/15 seconds) This ability also has a 25/50/75% chance to recharge one Smite Evil. I like it this way, with an equal percent of succes without depending on a weapon profile, maybe 75% is too high... 50%?
    Knowledge Religion: The following spells are added to the paladins spell list:
    Level 2:
    Good Hope, Shield Other: You take half of subject’s damage. (Maybe it'll have to be a clone of Arti's Radiant Forcefield, but it's a good addition)

    Level 3:
    Divine Power,
    Magic Weapon, Greater: +1 bonus/four levels (max +5) (Stacking)

    Level 4:
    Improved Holy Sword, (Severlins proposal.)
    Mark of Justice: Casts Curse on Target, Target takes 10% extra damage for 20 seconds, No save, works on all mobs & bosses that are susceptible to curse.

    • Avenging Cleave: Shares its cooldown with the Great Cleave feat. Make a powerful sweeping attack against all nearby enemies that deals +1/+3/+5[W] damage. Each creature gains one stack of Vulnerability.


    Notable Changes:

    Removed enhancements focused on remove disease
    Removed level drain immunity
    Added Favored weapons get + damage
    Added Regen turn undead to tier 3 of Improved Turning.
    Added Spells to Paladin Spell book. (ap cost: 1/1/2)
    Scaled back the damage on Holy Retribution, removed the Turn undead cost, increased cool down, Removed the vorpal like aspects, Lowered the chance to regenerate smites. (should average regenning 3 smites per minute)


    Not overpowered, far more relevant. Needed.
    I like it, not a fan of favored weapons though... maybe if the list was larger... there is no favored weapon for a dwarf, halfling or Horc. And for human should be 2 or 3 more... not just longbow and longsword...
    And the spells additions should be in the general spellbook of paladin... seriosly that book is pretty thin!
    *some comments in bold
    Proud officer of Zuleicos (Thelanis) - Mikaelus (Melee) ; Akhnaroth (Caster) ; Kraneo (Healbot) ; Leonardu (Melee) ; Tormentazul (Melee)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum
    Come play Dungeons and Dragons! In heroic play you will face the evil minions of Demons... When and if you make it to Epic levels you face even greater threats. Threats like... giant rats and wolves!

  9. #529
    Community Member Thar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainSpacePony View Post
    And I commend you for it!

    After ruminating on it a bit, I think HS had to be competence, which does make it "meh" and won't make everyone run out to roll Paladins, but at least it gives concentrated Paladins a way to improve their crit profile. That being said, since holy sword is not going to be the holy grail for paladins, I'm anxious to see what else will be in store for them.

    Still waiting on that paladin war priest tree.
    Competence makes it lame and not enough of a bump to pally's. Pally's need major help in the dps arena, not minor tweaks. Changing smite to a 20 sec timer instead of charges should be one change.

    I guess we can wait till the other trees are redone, but since they seem to be more shield/defensive, this is what we got and it's not enough to be competitive with a fighter or now even a bard. who would have thought that 6 yrs ago... bard > pally in dps.

    and the costs need to be reduced so you can get some defense and still have some offense... 3 levels in EVERY abillity makes pally/stalwarts too expensive for the limited benefits of 3 pts to AC.
    Member of "Guild of the Black Dragons" & "Swords of the Light" on Sarlona. Proud "Last" member of Caffeine - we aint stragicially savy.
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  10. #530
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thar View Post
    Competence makes it lame and not enough of a bump to pally's. Pally's need major help in the dps arena, not minor tweaks.
    How does Competence make it lame and not a bump to pallys?
    How is it not major DPS help to get +2 hit +2 damage +1 W +1 crit mult +2 total crit range?


    Quote Originally Posted by Thar View Post
    Changing smite to a 20 sec timer instead of charges should be one change.
    If you think Smite Evil is too slow then reduce the recharge rate, but do not change it from charges to a simple cooldown. If it's just a cooldown then it becomes a mindless button you click every 20 seconds during every single battle (unless we know the monsters are 100% non-evil and then we ignore it). The small adjustments like waiting until after a stun to smite barely help the gameplay enjoyment. With charges that build up, you can decide to use your Smite Evils on the more important enemies, and aren't forced to work metronome-like.

    Quite a lot of the game's short-cooldown damage attacks would be improved if changed to charges from a simple cooldown.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thar View Post
    and the costs need to be reduced so you can get some defense and still have some offense... 3 levels in EVERY abillity makes pally/stalwarts too expensive for the limited benefits of 3 pts to AC.
    The devs have painted themselves into a tight corner with the AP costs of AC. (And that's a concern for Paladins because their Sacred Defender tree has a focus on gaining AC)

    For other kinds of defenses like Dodge, Incorp, or even PPR, after you've spent the AP to get the ability it remains just as good forever. Having 3% Dodge will stop 3% of weapon damage whether you're in Waterworks or Demonweb. But an enhancement which gave you +6 AC might stop 20% of damage in level 2 dungeons but 0% in level 20 content.

    AP invested in Dodge, Incorp, Conceal, or PPR will remain useful no matter what you do with the character next. But AP spent in AC will become less valuable as you advance into tougher content, unless you find ways to keep on improving AC as you go on. (DR and energy resist have the same problem)

    To work around that powerful design limitation, I suggest the devs try this:

    Edit most enhancements which grant AC, DR, or energy resist so that the benefit scales up with your level. (Either character level or class level + epic level, depending)
    Last edited by Scrabbler; 08-04-2014 at 11:13 AM.

  11. #531
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Idea to make holy sword scale.

    At caster level 14 this spell grants +1 to crit range and crit multiplier, +1[w], and the enhancement value of your weapon is increased by 2

    At caster level 25 this spell grants a +2 to crit range and crit multiplier, +2[w], and the enhancement value of your weapon is increased by 4 (this would require being pure pally in a maxed out divine ED).
    Last edited by Lonnbeimnech; 08-04-2014 at 11:22 AM.

  12. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    At caster level 25 this spell grants a +2 to crit range and crit multiplier, +2[w], and the enhancement value of your weapon is increased by 4 (this would require being pure pally in a maxed out divine ED).
    There are items which raise your caster level by equipping them... do they work with Paladin casting?

  13. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by fTdOmen View Post
    Holy Retribution: Executes a powerful holy strike against the target that deals +1/+3/+5[W] damage. (Cooldown: 25/20/15 seconds) This ability also has a 25/50/75% chance to recharge one Smite Evil.
    Why are people saying that this suggestion is better than what the Dev proposed, because I see this as much much worse?

    First, Holy Retribution costs a Turn Undead to execute it. Second, the Dev added that using this ability will recharge a Smite, whereas this proposed change only has a chance to recharge a Smite. Second, it's a single target attack that deals +1/+3/+5, while the Cleaves that the Dev added does the same thing to multiple targets.

    There's nothing about this proposed change that I like over the Dev's changes. With that said, the 1000 HP cap and the 100 holy damage must scale into Epics if the stupid chance at a Will save stays. Especially since it costs a Undead Turn.

    Also, I hate, hate, hate the idea of adding Enhancements for the Favored Weapons. That's valuable realty space for something the Devs aren't going to be expanding for all races in the game. It should die in the fire when it comes to paladins. It's fine for clerics and FvS since they get tons of SP for dots, instant kills, near unlimited heals. Paladins shouldn't be shoehorned into that bad mechanism.

    With that said, I have no problem if Favored weapons get a minor boost in the cores, such as +1 to-hit and damage. But that's as far as I want to see anything else done with Favored Weapons for paladins.

  14. #534
    Community Member XodousRoC's Avatar
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    Default Still holding out hope here

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabbler View Post
    If my crit range is 15-20 and I cast Holy Sword, I will have 13-20. It gave me +2 total crit range. Saying it did is correct.

    Are you claiming that casting Holy Sword will only give me 14-20 crit range? That would be new information, and not consistent with how other Competence bonuses to crit range have worked in DDO. I haven't seen a developer announcement that it'll work differently than the others.
    The SPELL grants a +1 comp range. You are presenting an argument that is functionally correct in that your primary weapon type (pierce/slash/bludgeon) WILL gain a +2 from the INTERACTION of the spell + a feat (Improved crit). It is, however, a logical fallacy to present your case such that the spell grants a +2. This is misinformation at its worst. That the functional result on weapons covered under whichever feat you selected is +2 is not the same as the spell granting +2. Every time you switch to a different weapon damage type (to break dr, for a tool with better effects for whatever you are fighting, etc), you functionally return to a +1 (given you cast the spell upon the weapon currently in use, but not covered under your preferred damage type as covered by your feat selection).

    I may be in the minority here, but I like the inclusion of the cleaves. I do not like their shared cooldowns with the feats, and it MUST be further expounded by the devs whether or not the enhancement cleaves play to the same interaction with momentum swing in LD. If they do not, they absolutely should not share a timer with the feats they are meant to replace.

    Taking away our bane dmg (resisted by nothing included in the bane type) and replacing it with light dmg (resisted by few) is actually of passing benefit, as it will still affect those previously baned as well as a significantly greater portion of the monster populace. While I'm not blown away by the change, I do think it is a step in the right direction for a more fully functioning Paladin.

    At the end of the day, all we really want are functional pallies. Pure classed or multi-classed is irrelevant. The idea that divine might and smites should somehow be better for a priest than a holy warrior is misguided. That is where we are at currently in the game's state of development. You (the devs) asked for feedback; here it is. Divine might needs to either have the inclusion of a permanently regenerative effect (endless turn) or be put on a blue bar diet. However you decide it should function, charges should not be an issue if they are even less an issue for clerics. Smites need to receive the same kind of love. They do currently regenerate, but painfully slowly. We want a better tree, and you apparently want to give one, so why not include an enhancement to increase the rate of return in smites (and maybe make them functionally dependent upon Paladin level by basing the damage multiplier or base damage of the smite upon a metric that scales according to said level). This not only creates a stronger class (pure or otherwise), but creates a built-in incentive for playing to cap. This is our most flexible dps tree; make it a dps tree that improves upon existing mechanics as well as introducing novel ideas (like the enh cleaves) to create a viable toon that hopefully plays well with epics.

    I have a stable of 19 toons. Very few splash Pally because of the dishearteningly poor state of their enhancements, and for the same reason, I have only one pure. That said, my first toon was a Pally. I still have him. I still have many bastard swords. I would love to be able to TR him back into a Pally, but you've got to get this right. You made my bard (now bards-my barb is now a Warchanter) a blast to play. Please listen to those calling for better/improved mechanics in existing abilities (Smite has got to have an improved animation btw) as well as including your enhancement answer to our shortage of feats.

    Final thoughts: focusing the entirety of improvement upon a singular spell and 2 maybe good/maybe horribad (depending upon how they interact with momentum swing) new cleaves will not make Pally viable as either a heroic pure class nor as a sought member of an EE crew. They simply lack too much to contribute meaningfully in EE and the state of your current proposal offers little of worth past level 14/15.

    Thank you very, very much for your continued efforts to create a better playing experience for everyone by attempting to make all classes at least viable. Paladin has not been thus for a very long time for many of us. I would love for it to be so again.

    Sincerely,
    Bel of Khyber
    Last edited by XodousRoC; 08-04-2014 at 11:54 AM.

  15. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabbler View Post
    There are items which raise your caster level by equipping them... do they work with Paladin casting?
    none of those work with paladin, ranger, or bard

  16. #536
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    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    none of those work with paladin, ranger, or bard
    You have tested that wearing an Infused Chaosrobe, which claims to add +1 caster level to any Evocation spell of level 1-9, will not benefit a level 4 Evocation spell like Holy Sword?

    I guess it's not a big deal because it's only +1 level. Most Paladins who splash would want 2 levels to get anything good. (But there may be other items or EDs created in the future)

  17. #537
    Community Member XodousRoC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thar View Post
    Competence makes it lame and not enough of a bump to pally's. Pally's need major help in the dps arena, not minor tweaks. Changing smite to a 20 sec timer instead of charges should be one change.
    I both agree and disagree here. I think competence is where this spell needs to live. It doesn't bother me in the least. Seriously, it's like Deadly on steroids. What I do agree with is that it, by itself, is not enough of a bump. We need to stop focusing on a single spell here and focus on the enhancements that make us say "meh", or I fear the devs will continue to focus on said spell to the near exclusion of said "meh" enhancements. The spell is what it is, and it's a significant bump in the spell list if its the only change they make to the spell list. Let's turn the discussion back to enhancements and core mechanics (like your smite suggestion). I don't agree with a 20 second timer, but I think an enhancement space should be lent to recharging smites more quickly. I also think smite damage should scale with Paladin level. This, I think, would go far in our search for the new and improved Paladin class.

  18. #538
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabbler View Post
    You have tested that wearing an Infused Chaosrobe, which claims to add +1 caster level to any Evocation spell of level 1-9, will not benefit a level 4 Evocation spell like Holy Sword?

    I guess it's not a big deal because it's only +1 level. Most Paladins who splash would want 2 levels to get anything good. (But there may be other items or EDs created in the future)
    Make it an invocation spell?

  19. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabbler View Post
    You have tested that wearing an Infused Chaosrobe, which claims to add +1 caster level to any Evocation spell of level 1-9, will not benefit a level 4 Evocation spell like Holy Sword?

    I guess it's not a big deal because it's only +1 level. Most Paladins who splash would want 2 levels to get anything good. (But there may be other items or EDs created in the future)
    The augmentation properties only effect spells on the wizard/sorcerer spell list, even if they arent explicitly such.

  20. #540
    Community Member XodousRoC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabbler View Post
    Get a Handwrap from your inventory and read the description... notice how the word "Weapon" shows up all over the place? Open the Auction House and look for what category Handwraps are under: "Weapons".

    The truth is that handwraps are melee weapons; the game does consider them weapons, except when it doesn't.
    The truth is that anything physically utilized to increase your physical damage is, in fact, a weapon. A great axe, a rapier, chair leg, wraps, or a shoe. Doesn't matter. Scrabbler has absolutely got the right of it here. Monk's damage with their hands increases as a base regardless of what they wear to enhance it, but wraps are physical objects employed to increase that physical damage regardless of its base. They are weapons, the same as any other weapon, though perhaps less lethal than sweaty gym socks...

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