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  1. #1
    The Hatchery Fefnir_2011's Avatar
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    Default Changes to Aggro in Frame Work

    First off, the video:



    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5388426

    Expected behavior: stealth through the quest using the ballista and a high jump score, finish with no alarm raised and 1 mob killed: Matador Chieftain.

    Actual behavior: stealth through quest, no alarm ever raised. Once I was inside the Chieftain room, I used the wand on the two runts in there to avoid the alarm. Stealthed to the corner behind and to the right of the Chieftain. I had to kill Matador Chieftain. I chose to kill the 3 Cabal Seers, the named Orc and Ogre Magi, and 5 trash mobs that aggro'd on me, because otherwise their healing would have outpaced my DPS on the Chieftain. I still got the stealthy opt, but that trash insta-spawned on me no matter what.

    Any ideas on what's caused this change in behavior? This happened after the last update/patch, as I had no unexpected issues soloing this quest the last time I was running it.
    Honkin * Diaari * Bazongas


  2. #2
    Community Member Saekee's Avatar
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    Default

    hi thx for sharing your video.

    well, your path to the Chieftain was an invisi-run, not stealth; not sure what effect that may have had on an overall alert. Did you get anything on the way there? I couldnt' quite see.

    Your hide and move silent score were 12, if I recall; that may be a little low for that particular quest? So while you were in sneak mode by the Chieftain, you might have been heard.

    Once you threw the shuriken, you were in full sight of a lot of the mobs. Also, you moved around a bit while fighting the Chieftain initially, causing some noise (footsteps). That draws foes. Finally, when a mob is hit with a ranged weapon, that draws those around them. So that explains, in part, why you got attacked by so many at one point.


    If you instead stealth to behind the Chieftain on the platform above, well out of sight, and then make a little movement noise there, he will be drawn to investigate (instead of using a shuriken). Then you can take him out one-on-one since you will be far enough back for no one to see you. Often he gets away, though, unless you have a burst attack.

    BUT you completed it and got the stealth option, so props to you--and you even skipped the chest by the Chieftain! Probably don't need the loot, I assume.
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  3. #3
    Intergalactic Space Crusader Livmo's Avatar
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    Default Chagess

    No sure if this applies to you or not but agro did change.


    https://www.ddo.com/en/update-22-release-notes

    Combat
    •Monsters will now aggro when players shoot their nearby friends at long range.
    •Monster AI has been adjusted to improve the ability of enemies to detect players, and to improve game performance (particularly in regard to aggro and when damaged.)


    I actually have to use bluff now, but out laziness I just pull everyone and nuke.

  4. #4
    Community Member Saekee's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Livmo View Post
    No sure if this applies to you or not but agro did change.
    https://www.ddo.com/en/update-22-release-notes
    Combat
    •Monsters will now aggro when players shoot their nearby friends at long range.
    •Monster AI has been adjusted to improve the ability of enemies to detect players, and to improve game performance (particularly in regard to aggro and when damaged.
    yes, this was what was occuring in the video.
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  5. #5
    The Hatchery Fefnir_2011's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Saekee View Post
    hi thx for sharing your video.

    well, your path to the Chieftain was an invisi-run, not stealth; not sure what effect that may have had on an overall alert. Did you get anything on the way there? I couldnt' quite see.

    Your hide and move silent score were 12, if I recall; that may be a little low for that particular quest? So while you were in sneak mode by the Chieftain, you might have been heard.

    Once you threw the shuriken, you were in full sight of a lot of the mobs. Also, you moved around a bit while fighting the Chieftain initially, causing some noise (footsteps). That draws foes. Finally, when a mob is hit with a ranged weapon, that draws those around them. So that explains, in part, why you got attacked by so many at one point.


    If you instead stealth to behind the Chieftain on the platform above, well out of sight, and then make a little movement noise there, he will be drawn to investigate (instead of using a shuriken). Then you can take him out one-on-one since you will be far enough back for no one to see you. Often he gets away, though, unless you have a burst attack.

    BUT you completed it and got the stealth option, so props to you--and you even skipped the chest by the Chieftain! Probably don't need the loot, I assume.
    Thanks for your reply. I've done this quest before without stealth skills in this manner and not had this much aggro on me. I agree with you that stealth would, at least normally, reduce or remove unwanted aggro. However, there are several different new things happening here:
    • The Matador Seers teleported to me. They didn't aggro on me outside of the room and follow me in. They essentially re-spawned on the Chieftain
    • I did use a ranged weapon in the video to pull. However, I also did this with body pulling and intim-pulling, with the same result
    • I am aware of the changes to ranged aggro, but by the time I throw the shuriken, nothing should be able to see me throwing it besides the Chieftain.

    I do pay careful attention to aggro and how I pull it. I've been a rogue and wizard player for several years, so I'm fairly well versed in how stealth and aggro interact. If this was a matter of invis-stealthing instead of sneaking, here's what I would have expected to see instead:
    • mobs triggered by me running past would have followed me unless I disappeared beyond their line of sight.
    • mobs that followed me would rubber band past a certain point (I.E., if there was a Seer at the NW shrine, they probably couldn't have followed me into the end fight)
    • Even if throwing the shuriken alerted mobs outside the gate somehow, that would have resulted in only trash mobs immediately outside the gate coming in
    • Even if that would have happened (and I didn't get enough trash mobs to verify that), I wouldn't expect a Seer who hasn't even had visual or audio confirmation of me to teleport into the end fight

    This looks less like a change in aggro to me, and more like a new boss mechanic. At one point, you can see text over the Chieftain's head calling minotaurs to his aid. I'd find it more likely that a dev snuck in a change to how the end fight works. I mean, hires will stand in traps until they bleed to death, and mobs will bug out if you're out of physical attacking range. What are the odds that mob aggro was improved so well that a minotaur standing 50 in-game feet from me heard me throwing a single shuriken, and thus alerted only the Cabal Seers, who then de-spawned and re-spawned in the end fight?
    Honkin * Diaari * Bazongas


  6. #6
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    Default

    This entire quest has been messed up since the update. I usually farm this multiple times and I'd say about 30 percent of the time, I can't get the runts to open either the front or back gates. They just instantly aggro, jump over the wall and attack you. It's definitely not worth farming anymore. Now I just pray I can get a gate open on my first run through.

  7. #7
    Community Member Saekee's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fefnir_2011 View Post
    Thanks for your reply. I've done this quest before without stealth skills in this manner and not had this much aggro on me. I agree with you that stealth would, at least normally, reduce or remove unwanted aggro. However, there are several different new things happening here:
    • The Matador Seers teleported to me. They didn't aggro on me outside of the room and follow me in. They essentially re-spawned on the Chieftain
    • I did use a ranged weapon in the video to pull. However, I also did this with body pulling and intim-pulling, with the same result
    • I am aware of the changes to ranged aggro, but by the time I throw the shuriken, nothing should be able to see me throwing it besides the Chieftain.

    I do pay careful attention to aggro and how I pull it. I've been a rogue and wizard player for several years, so I'm fairly well versed in how stealth and aggro interact. If this was a matter of invis-stealthing instead of sneaking, here's what I would have expected to see instead:
    • mobs triggered by me running past would have followed me unless I disappeared beyond their line of sight.
    • mobs that followed me would rubber band past a certain point (I.E., if there was a Seer at the NW shrine, they probably couldn't have followed me into the end fight)
    • Even if throwing the shuriken alerted mobs outside the gate somehow, that would have resulted in only trash mobs immediately outside the gate coming in
    • Even if that would have happened (and I didn't get enough trash mobs to verify that), I wouldn't expect a Seer who hasn't even had visual or audio confirmation of me to teleport into the end fight

    This looks less like a change in aggro to me, and more like a new boss mechanic. At one point, you can see text over the Chieftain's head calling minotaurs to his aid. I'd find it more likely that a dev snuck in a change to how the end fight works. I mean, hires will stand in traps until they bleed to death, and mobs will bug out if you're out of physical attacking range. What are the odds that mob aggro was improved so well that a minotaur standing 50 in-game feet from me heard me throwing a single shuriken, and thus alerted only the Cabal Seers, who then de-spawned and re-spawned in the end fight?
    Actually, having him pull his aids along was always what happened to me until I really found that sweet location behind him. Even then, at some point when his HP get down (maybe halfway) he runs out and gets help. I would then find myself confronting the Seers. (the stone wand thingy works on them on normal but not hard or elite.)
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  8. #8
    Intergalactic Space Crusader Livmo's Avatar
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    Default Blade Barrier

    Since we on the topic sort of, I have several toons that use Blade Barrier and have noticed monsters have changed their reaction/agro to it. I now notice some monsters now get stuck on aggroing the Blade Barrier and end up in a bathroom tub vortex till they die.

    Generally speaking I've noticed insta aggro that was unavoidable.

  9. #9

    Default

    Ran this recently on my solitary ninja and confirm the weirdness. Stoned the runts in the inner fortress as well before pummeling the chieftain. I was in stealth at all times save brief moments as I shot myself into camp and then into the fortress. I stayed stationary as much as possible when attacking the chieftain.

    Two Seers soon appeared out of nowhere. That's not how it should be. Mini-bosses, heck, anything shouldn't zone in from halfway across the map.

    I'm bug reporting this one.
    Last edited by Spencerian; 08-08-2014 at 07:46 AM.
    Editor, The Book of Syncletica: An unofficial DDO Monk Guide, and Stormreach Shadows: An unofficial DDO Stealth Guide
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    (formerly known as Spencerian)

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