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  1. #1
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Default Meteor Shower Rev 2: Dark Stars (9Rog/6Mnk/5Wiz) Halfling

    For the sake of completeness and since I get way too many PM's and in game tells about it, here's an abreviated build thread. It's basically my Meteor Shower build with 6 Less Monk levels and 6 More Rogue levels. I dropped the duece on this split a few months ago in that thread, but never wrote it up for anyone. I built this monstrosity and never posted the build until now. Basically once I knew for sure that Halfling throwing crit range wa being fixed, I knew shuriken builds needed to be halfling, and that opens up a few nice SA dice. Which means, lets try for more SA.

    Dex is one or two points lower (no Great Dex Feat, only tier 3 Monk stance), SA dice are way higher.


    Caveats: This leveling order was for a build using a Stone for most of heroics.

    Halfling
    9 Rogue, 6 Monk, 5 Wizard

    1 Rogue: PBS
    2 Monk: Dodge
    3 Monk: Rapid Shot, Precision
    4 Monk:
    5 Monk:
    6 Monk: Shuriken Expertise
    7 Monk: 10K
    8 Wizard: Extend
    9 Wizard: QD
    10 Wizard
    11 Wizard
    12 Wizard: Precise Shot, Quicken (Could take MT if you want)
    13 Rogue
    14 Rogue
    15 Rogue: Completionist
    16 Rogue
    17 Rogue
    18 Rogue: IPS
    19 Rogue
    20 Rogue
    Epic21: Master of Forms
    Epic24: IC Thrown
    Epic26: Who Cares
    Epic27: Epic Reflexes
    Epic28: DoubleShot

    Enhancements:
    31 EK (take all the good stuff that costs 30, and then Tensers Smiley
    17'ish-? Halfling (Master Thrower, SA, Dodge, Saves, Dex)
    8 HsM (contemplation)
    5 Ninja Spy (Core1/2, +3 Dodge)
    15 TA (Shadow Dodge, Dex)
    -----
    76AP

    This is the bare minimum for enhancements to be a boss. If you want to twist Enlightenment, or run sometimes in Ocean, you can skip 8AP in Henshin and use your mediations and the occasional Qstaff whacks (You are a Thief Acrobat after all!), giving you 12 AP to play with. In that case I would take those twelve and put 8 into Thief Acrobat for No Mercy Tier 3. The other 4 I would put into 2 more SA dice in Ninja Spy (Tier 1 and 2). This layout will make you extremely powerful. If you want to run in ShadowDancer, which I recommend trying, you probably need Epic Completionist though. The 4 twists make it possible to run out of Shiradi and still have throwing speed from Whirling Wrists. Though, it's not as big a hit as you might think with self cast Haste and Bab 28.


    This is, in Shiradi or Shadow Dancer, probably the highest sustained ranged DPS build in the game, currently. I will caveat this claim with:
    1. Monkchers are obviously still excellent builds with high DPS. But they're spiky-er, unless in LD and blitzing.
    2. My new build that is 12Arty/5Rogue/3Monk is potentially higher total DPS than this build. It's still being play tested and adjusted.

  2. #2
    Community Member -Zyxas-'s Avatar
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    This post contains build critiques, including about low levels which you admitted you were not completely sure about, and evaluations of the build's standing (or that of very similar builds). TL/DR: Some small things could be tweaked and it's not objectively the best build in the world, but I like it.

    My brother made his character very similar to this build (before you had said anything serious about halflings; we TR'd into these lives on June 1st this year). He did this exact level up order, and it worked very well, to answer your uncertainty about the level order. The first few wizard levels are weird, but do give enough benefits at their time to be useful (ie Shield and imp. Mage Armor from EK for AC, which is beast in heroics without trying much [as another aside, he had over 100 AC at level 14 in earth with defensive fighting, as though it were an AC focused build but it isn't]).

    At level 2 or 3 we also tested thrown speed. BAB was at the T0 step (assuming it helps in tiers of 5 points), and was the same for both of us anyway. I took Quick Draw, since I have ranger levels for free Rapid Shot, and he took RS first. We threw shurikens at the air at the end of a run of Kobold's New Ringleader, and my character was throwing faster. I "lapped him" after several shots; we didn't time it or count the exact number, but QD certainly has a stronger bonus than RS alone at low levels. I doubt they would scale any differently at slightly higher levels, but it's possible. Also, throwers should get both anyway so it's not important for a capped build. Basically, I'm saying put QD earlier in the feat progression than RS, and there is good reason to.

    He did not take dodge as a monk bonus, and is planning on an epic Dex feat in its place (different feat order). Since his character is not a completionist, he took Master at 12, IC:T at 15, and Grandmaster at 21. Another small comment about feat order: I'd expect IC:T at 15 and Completionist as an epic feat would be a better order since IC:T increases your crit. profile (average mainhit damage per hit with crit chance and multiplier factored in) by +10%, which would be around 3-4 damage per throw, while completionist would be 1 damage and 2-3% shurikens per throw (mid-40s Dex before Shadow Dodge) - at most 3 damage per throw (assuming 30 sneak damage and 35 mainhit damage, which are about right, by experience).

    He has that AP setup, and his final 3 points (you counted wrong - 6 points in Ninja) are Shintao core, Mechanic core, and one more in Ninja (sneak die and 3 dodge things, instead of a 1 point junk, plus two cores). But he applies to your disclaimer here - not enough Twist points and slots for Enlightenment.

    As a reply to your disclaimer to the brag at the end, I am currently playing a shuriken monkcher along with my brother's thrower-only, and at level 20 in unleveled off-destinies (not endgame but we will both gain approximately the same benefits from real EDs and levels), with equal threat, I always pull aggro, even while he's getting his larger sneak hits without fail and I only get some of mine. (We did the dragons at the end of Prey on the Hunter at level 19, and I had permanent aggro - my brother took a video if you're really concerned, and it's similar in other quests at level 20 although I have no hard precise examples). I guess this sort of furthers your second point in the disclaimer, about the part-crossbow (I'd assume) build. Mixed DPS options seem to be more effective than pure DPS options. (Other factors are certainly a consideration, but many melee builds try to have manyshot, my shurikenner has manyshot and slayer arrow, you seem to be planning fusillade + shuriken, and I just saw SDSF's melee + ranged build which apparently is very "fast").
    DISCLAIMER: Forums are a place of help - and of opposition... I'm not attempting to spark hostility. I state my opinions because I think they are useful. It is the reader's choice whether to adopt my opinions. I want to show people different reasoning and options so they can enjoy the game more fully. Usually this leads to walls of text. Sorry.

  3. #3
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Zyxas- View Post
    My brother made his character very similar to this build (before you had said anything serious about halflings; we TR'd into these lives on June 1st this year).
    Thanks for the feedback. The low level stuff is good, as I said I didn't actually live through it.

    What server? In any case, see this post from May 9th, in my other build thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    It is a sad reality that this can be an issue. To be honest, it's only an issue with small mobs, mostly wolves, sometimes kobolds or shadows.

    Halfing is fine, but you do lose some things as well:

    -Feat if Drow
    -SA damage range if Elf

    But overall, halfing is a perfectly reasonable choice. This build isn't that tight on feats, so a halfing can be made to work. If they fix the enhancements, it's sort of a no brainer.
    Also this one, May 18th:

    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    I am currently running Elf 9 Rogue / 6 Monk /5 Wiz because I'm doing Shadowdancer and Sneak Attack is a big focus. Elf gives me SA range that is so importnat. In SD, I don't make stuff helpless anymore, and the biggest HP bags I fight are Red/Purple names, so frankly No Mercy isn't that attractive to me anymore. For ETR'ing? Of course it's awesome. For end game raiding? For me, not so much.

    That being said, the highest DPS variant of this build would be halfing, which gets even more SA dice, but at a much shorter range, coupled with the Throwing crit enhancement. Though to be fair, what you have to sacrifice for it makes it so the DPS increase is actually not nearly as large and you might think it was. Because recall, only about a 1/3rd of your damage/shuriken comes from physical damage, which is all it increases. ANd it costs all those AP.

    Of course, increases damage from procs that proc on crit, but only marginally. If you're doing about 80 physical damage a star, and about 70-80 SA damage a star, and about 70 proc damage a star, 8-10% more damage from crits is largely only applied to the first 80 physical damage you do. Even if it makes 1 or two of your high damage on crit procs go off more often, like Crippling Flames (Tier 3 Thunderforged, ~200-somthing damage on a crit) that makes that proc go from 20 average damage a star to 40 damage a star. That's 20 damage is a lot, but I never use Crippling flames over Mortal fear, and that's really the only proc you can get that would make such an enormous damage difference from having better crit range.

    For the physical damage part, it would net you around 8 damage per star give or take.

    Not sure personally how much superior that is in real life play to having 10 meters of SA range from Elf, and more AP for other things. If you fully gear for 100% fort debuff, run in SD, and wear the Dragon Masque along with Avithoul/Backstabbers/Whatever gives SA and Deception/Imp Deception procs like me, with 9 rogue levels, that switch to halfling and crit threat increase is a harder choice.

    Honestly, I should probably just go halfing, deal with the smaller SA range, and gain some SA dice and the crit threat. Once I know for CERTAIN that halfling crit is fixed, it's pretty likely I will TR into one for this character.

    Hope that helps.
    I was suggesting this as soon as they announced crit range was fixed for halfling on Lama, and had already re-rolled into a 9Rogue/6Monk/5Wizard previous to that, just as an elf when Halfling was still broken.

    My point is: you didn't post anything, and I have it in writing that I was in 9/6/5 on Live previous to May 18th. So i appreciate that great minds think alike. It doesn't really matter if you saw it in my build thread or not, I was serious about halfling as soon as halfling were serious. Anyway, on to your post:

    Quote Originally Posted by -Zyxas- View Post
    He did this exact level up order, and it worked very well, to answer your uncertainty about the level order. The first few wizard levels are weird, but do give enough benefits at their time to be useful (ie Shield and imp. Mage Armor from EK for AC, which is beast in heroics without trying much [as another aside, he had over 100 AC at level 14 in earth with defensive fighting, as though it were an AC focused build but it isn't]).
    Good to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Zyxas- View Post
    At level 2 or 3 we also tested thrown speed. BAB was at the T0 step (assuming it helps in tiers of 5 points), and was the same for both of us anyway. I took Quick Draw, since I have ranger levels for free Rapid Shot, and he took RS first. We threw shurikens at the air at the end of a run of Kobold's New Ringleader, and my character was throwing faster. I "lapped him" after several shots; we didn't time it or count the exact number, but QD certainly has a stronger bonus than RS alone at low levels. I doubt they would scale any differently at slightly higher levels, but it's possible. Also, throwers should get both anyway so it's not important for a capped build. Basically, I'm saying put QD earlier in the feat progression than RS, and there is good reason to.
    Also good to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Zyxas- View Post
    ...snip...
    As a reply to your disclaimer to the brag at the end, I am currently playing a shuriken monkcher along with my brother's thrower-only, and at level 20 in unleveled off-destinies (not endgame but we will both gain approximately the same benefits from real EDs and levels), with equal threat, I always pull aggro, even while he's getting his larger sneak hits without fail and I only get some of mine. (We did the dragons at the end of Prey on the Hunter at level 19, and I had permanent aggro - my brother took a video if you're really concerned, and it's similar in other quests at level 20 although I have no hard precise examples).
    1. I use Deception and Improved Deception. Aggro doesn't really matter. I still steal aggro all the time from Monkchers and Blitzers.
    2. Monkchers run in Earth Stance, this build does not. That's a lot more aggro, even with comparable damage.
    3. These builds have damage that is far more linear than a Monkcher. Monkchers spike high damage hits very rapidly, and then their DPS falls precipitously afterward. Opposingly, This type of Thrower build has lower crit mods and not using Slayer/Fury arrows, but has more consistent DPS. Over time, they are similar, but the Fury Monkcher in Earth stance will get the Aggro more often, even without Deception and Imp. Deception.
    4. You aggro example while informative at level 20 in off destinys, is expecially uninformative about level 28, geared, and properly Destinied characters. I hope you can appreciate that.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Zyxas- View Post
    I guess this sort of furthers your second point in the disclaimer, about the part-crossbow (I'd assume) build. Mixed DPS options seem to be more effective than pure DPS options. (Other factors are certainly a consideration, but many melee builds try to have manyshot, my shurikenner has manyshot and slayer arrow, you seem to be planning fusillade + shuriken, and I just saw SDSF's melee + ranged build which apparently is very "fast").
    The build is strictly Shuriken. There's a build thread on other forums where people put those things, but not here yet. It's still in Beta. I've had every Monkcher build (11Ranger/6Monk/3Pally Elf, 12monk/6ranger/2pally BF, Helf, and a played several as Shuriken/AA/Bow hybrids). I've even posted about it in other threads on this forum, and other forums. Distributed's thread is a good place to look. My first Shuriken build was a Shuricannon, then I went back to Monkcher, Elf, that used Dex to Bow Damage, and SE/NinjaSpy. The idea was that Manyshot with Bow, and 10K with Shurikens. I had Slayer arrows and ran around in Fury. It was great fun. But it was not better than any of my builds since. It was in fact probably a good deal worse. Or else I would go back to it. Fury just isn't that great for Shuriken, and Bows are terrible in anything but Fury and LD. It did work great in LD, but everything does really, that's properly built.

    In case it never gets posted here, the other build uses Arty buffs, self cast Tensers and armour of speed, T5 Mechanic for 10% Doubleshot, Shiradi, No Mercy, Halfling, with Glass Cannon or First Blood offhand. It also has Overwhelming Critical. I have considered Fussilade but it would suffer greatly with AP, and EF is actually sort of ******. It's slow as hell to start up (unless they changed it recently), and isn't really compelling.

  4. #4
    Community Member -Zyxas-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    Thanks for the feedback. The low level stuff is good, as I said I didn't actually live through it.

    What server? In any case, see this post from May 9th, in my other build thread:



    Also this one, May 18th:



    I was suggesting this as soon as they announced crit range was fixed for halfling on Lama, and had already re-rolled into a 9Rogue/6Monk/5Wizard previous to that, just as an elf when Halfling was still broken.

    My point is: you didn't post anything, and I have it in writing that I was in 9/6/5 on Live previous to May 18th. So i appreciate that great minds think alike. It doesn't really matter if you saw it in my build thread or not, I was serious about halfling as soon as halfling were serious. Anyway, on to your post:



    Good to know.



    Also good to know.



    1. I use Deception and Improved Deception. Aggro doesn't really matter. I still steal aggro all the time from Monkchers and Blitzers.
    2. Monkchers run in Earth Stance, this build does not. That's a lot more aggro, even with comparable damage.
    3. These builds have damage that is far more linear than a Monkcher. Monkchers spike high damage hits very rapidly, and then their DPS falls precipitously afterward. Opposingly, This type of Thrower build has lower crit mods and not using Slayer/Fury arrows, but has more consistent DPS. Over time, they are similar, but the Fury Monkcher in Earth stance will get the Aggro more often, even without Deception and Imp. Deception.
    4. You aggro example while informative at level 20 in off destinys, is expecially uninformative about level 28, geared, and properly Destinied characters. I hope you can appreciate that.



    The build is strictly Shuriken. There's a build thread on other forums where people put those things, but not here yet. It's still in Beta. I've had every Monkcher build (11Ranger/6Monk/3Pally Elf, 12monk/6ranger/2pally BF, Helf, and a played several as Shuriken/AA/Bow hybrids). I've even posted about it in other threads on this forum, and other forums. Distributed's thread is a good place to look. My first Shuriken build was a Shuricannon, then I went back to Monkcher, Elf, that used Dex to Bow Damage, and SE/NinjaSpy. The idea was that Manyshot with Bow, and 10K with Shurikens. I had Slayer arrows and ran around in Fury. It was great fun. But it was not better than any of my builds since. It was in fact probably a good deal worse. Or else I would go back to it. Fury just isn't that great for Shuriken, and Bows are terrible in anything but Fury and LD. It did work great in LD, but everything does really, that's properly built.

    In case it never gets posted here, the other build uses Arty buffs, self cast Tensers and armour of speed, T5 Mechanic for 10% Doubleshot, Shiradi, No Mercy, Halfling, with Glass Cannon or First Blood offhand. It also has Overwhelming Critical. I have considered Fussilade but it would suffer greatly with AP, and EF is actually sort of ******. It's slow as hell to start up (unless they changed it recently), and isn't really compelling.
    Anyway, no need to be defensive about "stealing" ideas, he was looking at all races and preferred the sneak dice over any other racial options, so the crit range thing is irrelevant. Xiadais is my brother, and he commented in your thread about halfling, after which you replied on May 9th, talking about shortness. I don't care whether you're right that he saw it anyone else's thread/post before, but his only DPS reasoning after evaluating all possible races was for SA dice which was already "fixed"/WAI. A lot of people don't use the forums, and a lot of people forget what they saw on the forums, so ideas can hardly be considered property. Let's all just get along?

    About the aggro stuff, both of us were using Golden Guile and no weapon deception. I was certainly not in Earth Stance, as I didn't have it T3 yet and I use my bow the minority of the time. I use air. Neither of us had threat changing gear. We had the same exact threat. I think you discount the power of bursts. For a monkcher: Manyshot has a 1/6 uptime, and quadruples bow damage, so it counts for 2/3 of regular bow damage throughout time. 10k at mid-40s wisdom (44?) is 1.95 arrows per shot, and has half uptime, so counts for 100% of regular bow damage if you would use it when available and do nothing the rest of the time. Regular bow shooting is 1/3 uptime at regular damage, so 1/3 of your damage. Added up, you have 200% the damage of just going plink-plink by using manyshot and 10k religiously.

    Now to compare to shurikens, with 80 Dex (I know, not your exact number, but useful for approximation) you have 2.6 shurikens per throw, plus around .5 extra shurikens per throw if your wisdom gets you an average of one extra, so you're doing 3.1x just regular thrown plink-plink. A monkcher only gets around 2x regular plink-plink per attack, with much higher mainhit damage, lower sneak damage, and similar proc damage (AA imbues vs. whatever offhand benefits), at a slower rate of fire. The monkcher, in terms of DPS, should be behind a pure shuriken. But in quests with breaks from combat, the monkcher's lower hits/atk from having to use single shots can be factored in less. I agree with you that shurikens are quite possibly more DPS.

    However, a bow-and-shuriken build would lose about 17 dexterity (6 destiny, 4 tenser, 6 Shadow Dodge, 1 in enhancement trees), so would be 2.26 shurikens per throw. 10k is assumed to be 1 extra hit per attack animation when up, and using it with shurikens would be 3.36 shurikens per throw, times .5 uptime = 1.68 shurikens per hit for overall combat time. Adding in Manyshot is .66 of regular bow damage for overall combat time. Then using a shuriken at 2.26 per throw for the remaining 1/3 uptime is .75 shurikens average for total combat time. So a manyshot/shuriken build has a total of 2.43 shurikens and .66 arrows per attack animation averaged over all attack animations. It is 3.09 average hits/attack, which is .01 less attacks per animation than a pure shuriken, but bows objectively do more damage per hit than shurikens because of their damage dice and critical profile. Sneak attack is lower on a part-bow build (lose at least some rogue level dice and possibly racial dice - at most 28 sneak damage lost, but 10.5 damage regained from DwS cores, so in total at most 17.5 sneak damage lost), but mainhit damage is much higher especially counting crits (from [W] alone, the bow gains 20 damage over the shuriken discounting crit profile, and there are ranger PLs, although the part-bow's shuriken mainhit damage is a bit lower), and proc damage is higher on a bow because AA imbues carry over to shurikens (glitchedly, but Shadow Dodge is also glitched in the pure-shuriken's favor in this analysis). This is assuming the same destiny for each build, but not taking dexterity for the bow build... which it still probably would. They should be very similar in DPS with all the factors accounted for... I don't have time for exact math right now.

    I completely understand your point about L28 with a complete setup being different, but L20 is still relevant for ERing and leveling to cap in the first place. Also, we tested these builds on Lamannia the first week it was up after U21, and got the freebie gear and destiny and life stuff. We were using very similar gear setups, with full endgame gear and destinies. He was in SD and I was in FotW. I use FotW unaggressively, only using adrenalines to keep them under 7 remaining (so they can recharge) and only "spam" them while manyshotting and accompany them with Slayer Arrow, or while 10k'ing with a shuriken, for which I also used Adren + Slayer Arrow. FotW is not bad for shurikens, just for people without slayer arrow. I use Unbridled Fury only once per quest usually, rather than every 5 minutes, only at the most difficult fights. I need to improve my full use of resources. He had no bursts to worry about using manually. I always had aggro, in air stance and with a Wolf Cloak (-20% threat), no matter what we were fighting.

    Anyway, shuriken builds are very good, as are monkchers and many other builds. I hope this post can be found meaningful and helpful to someone.

    EDIT: We are on Thelanis. Ayxzs and Tulkarr. Our characters don't have that many pastlives, and are only partially geared, but we've been around some time and are comfortable with most quests and are fairly versed in recent builds. My least favorite quests (that I can think of right now) are Invaders! (polar ray, dispells, negs) and Acute Delirium (horrendously long gauntlet of polar rays and beholders especially when duoing). My brother PMs Firewall sometimes to discuss bugs, features, ideas, whatever. We try to be friendly, yet support new options/not-deeply-considered options for other forumites and players we group with (when we group). I honestly don't care about the I-stole-an-idea/you-stole-it thing. I hope you continue to enjoy your gameplay and forum-perusing experience.

    EDIT2: 10k is .66 extra hits average while up with only 30 wisdom, which is .33 extra hits per attack over all combat, or equivalent to 33% doubleshot. With 44 wisdom, 10k gives 1.07 extra hits/atk, or an average of .503 hits/atk over all combat time. 30 wisdom could be 14 base + 4 tome + 8 item + 2 ship + 2 from more items, enhancements, stances, store/yugo potions, etc, at least one of which many builds should have. Plus you can still benefit from doubleshot 1/4 of the time if you have 10k but not manyshot. Sure, the ki CAN be an issue, but meditation, enhancements, or twists can eliminate the issue. I'm not sure if going down to 3 monk is really an excellent idea. I'd like to hear counterarguments to this if you have any (/serious tone, no sarcasm).
    Last edited by -Zyxas-; 07-25-2014 at 08:33 PM.
    DISCLAIMER: Forums are a place of help - and of opposition... I'm not attempting to spark hostility. I state my opinions because I think they are useful. It is the reader's choice whether to adopt my opinions. I want to show people different reasoning and options so they can enjoy the game more fully. Usually this leads to walls of text. Sorry.

  5. #5
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    You brought up the whose idea was it first thing, I was just replying to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Zyxas- View Post
    I'm not sure if going down to 3 monk is really an excellent idea. I'd like to hear counterarguments to this if you have any (/serious tone, no sarcasm).
    You already made the argument. 10K at a reasonably attainable Wisdom does not add much over a pretty attainable 40% Doubleshot. Overwhelming Crit more than makes up the difference, as does being able to Off Hand higher DPS items like Glass Cannon, Tovens, or First Blood, all of which easily outpace Celestia (20Dmg, 18Dmg, and 15% Doublestrike, respectively).

    And yes, you do have to manage your Ki on a 10K build, which I hated. Also, you lose Crit Threat for Shuriken from Halfling on a Bow hybrid because you have to be Elf, and you have to spend lots of Enhancement points to get Bow Dex to Damage, leaving you lacking somewhere else.

    I've run the build, for several lives/builds that used Pinion and Shurikens pre-U21/22. They were not better than either of the Shuriken builds I've posted, or the 3rd and 4th one's I'm ironing out now (12Art/5Rogue/3Monk and 9Bard/6Fighter/5Rogue). At least, not at end game, optimally geared, and played the way I play them. Everyone's experience can vary, but as platforms, they are objectively and numerically superior in the ways that I value (DPS, Saves, Mitigation, in that order).

  6. #6
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    I would Caveat at a minimum you need 9% Doubleshot past life to consider going no 10k, to be fair.

  7. #7
    Community Member -Zyxas-'s Avatar
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    Ki sure isn't an issue for me... Sure, I pay some attention to it, but that's mostly personal choice. I have the 8 points in Henshin, and that alone plus what I get on entering the quest lasts for typical quests that don't have constant fighting. Meditating at the beginning of more combative quests mostly takes care of ki then. It probably would be an issue if I was a dedicated speedrunner or was set up to not worry about ki at all. Again, preference is huge.

    I have ran your original 12/5/3 on Lamannia, and my brother currently is similar to your 9/6/5, as I said. He complains that he's gimp compared to me, with about twice the SA damage and 12 higher Dex atm. AFAIK, basically all I have over him is burst. Very qualitative claims, but numbers aren't everything to everyone, especially since you can't really count your total damage as you play.

    The rune arm procs make sense to me. With less ePLs and a slightly different gear setup than what you probably are using for doubleshot (assumptions, can be wrong), 10k would be better in a bonus hits sense. But the rune arm proc damage is a high enough percent of total damage that your doubleshot is better. I guess I look with a viewpoint of how universal a build is for Joe Schmoe, rather than how good it can be when fueled by every goodie you can get your hands on.
    Last edited by -Zyxas-; 07-25-2014 at 09:19 PM.
    DISCLAIMER: Forums are a place of help - and of opposition... I'm not attempting to spark hostility. I state my opinions because I think they are useful. It is the reader's choice whether to adopt my opinions. I want to show people different reasoning and options so they can enjoy the game more fully. Usually this leads to walls of text. Sorry.

  8. #8
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Zyxas- View Post
    Ki sure isn't an issue for me... I have the 8 points in Henshin, and that alone plus what I get on entering the quest lasts for typical quests that don't have constant fighting. Meditating at the beginning of more combative quests mostly takes care of ki then. It probably would be an issue if I was a dedicated speedrunner or was set up to not worry about ki at all.
    8AP, Occasional breaks to Mediate, and a requirement to remain centered at the entering and throughout the quest. Sure sounds like Ki management to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Zyxas- View Post
    I have ran your original 12/5/3 on Lamannia, and my brother currently is similar to your 9/6/5, as I said. He complains that he's gimp compared to me, with about twice the SA damage and 12 higher Dex atm. AFAIK, basically all I have over him is burst. Very qualitative claims, but numbers aren't everything to everyone, especially since you can't really count your total damage as you play.
    Is he a halfling? He will have the same or more Sneak, and better crit profile in that setup. Does he full time Tensers?

    Quote Originally Posted by -Zyxas- View Post
    The rune arm procs make sense to me. With less ePLs and a slightly different gear setup than what you probably are using for doubleshot (assumptions, can be wrong), 10k would be better in a bonus hits sense. But the rune arm proc damage is a high enough percent of total damage that your doubleshot is better. I guess I look with a viewpoint of how universal a build is for Joe Schmoe, rather than how good it can be when fueled by every goodie you can get your hands on.
    Fair enough, but that's not what I do. I make builds for power gaming for power gamers. It's a good point you raise: anyone can run a Monkcher from a template with no Past Lives, a Raiders Reward Box, and cheap AH gear and still do about as well as any other Monkcher, with the real difference being timing, placement, and utilization of activated abilities at that point, aka player skill. As long as you hit Manyshot then Fury, then Slayer, you can too can play a Monkcher.

    So far no one on Khyber at lvl 28 has even approached me on Kill Count in any quest I've run since hitting level 28 on my /3 Monk Arty build in the last 2 days of heavy playing since cap in EH/EE content. That includes Blitzers, Shiradi Spammers, some Wolf Hybrid Monstrosity, and SWF Bard Swashbucklers. Played by respectable players, who trash talk me and my builds and shuriken throwers (at least 1 anyway). And of course a bunch of Monkchers, too. I wish I could show you some of these EE kill counts with me having 80 and the next guy having 10. The level of dominance is extreme.

    I'm not saying I can't be topped, I'm saying I'm seeing more dominance with this build than any of my previous ones. Maybve it's just a fluke and not statistically relevant, but I have a pretty well-flushed out and sophisticated spreadsheet that shows me damage based on Rate of Fire, Physical, Proc, and SA damage including Seeker, and Crit Profile along with Double Strike/SE/AdvNinjaTraining. This /3 Monk with OC comes out about 8% ahead in pure literal DPS than my 9/6/5 build. Again, it might be close and an imperfect calculation, and playstyle and ability at that point can swing much more than 8% in either direction so, grain of salt. But theoretically and quantitatively, my builds are all mathematically sound, at least as compared to other thrower builds. I don't build them if they aren't a winner on paper first, or at least show potential. I PM'd you a link with details of the build I'm talking about.

    You'll **** your pants when I show you the Bard build that's even better than the Arty build that's better than my Meteor Shower builds. Again, on paper at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post

    You'll **** your pants when I show you the Bard build that's even better than the Arty build that's better than my Meteor Shower builds. Again, on paper at least.
    Let me guess the bard build..Swashbuckling with nothing/orb in offhand? Gets all that doubleshot bonuses, doubleshot boost. Also got a question..Ninja spy 2nd core essentially gives you shuriken expertise, so why do you take feat still? Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    (...)as does being able to Off Hand higher DPS items like Glass Cannon, Tovens, or First Blood, all of which easily outpace Celestia (20Dmg, 18Dmg, and 15% Doublestrike, respectively).
    So what this implies is that every Doublestrike item that explicitly states that it only works on melee hits would also improve your Doubleshot value. I know there are a select few items that explicitly state in their description that they work on both melee and ranged but First Blood is not one of them. Did you test if First Blood really works that way?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    So what this implies is that every Doublestrike item that explicitly states that it only works on melee hits would also improve your Doubleshot value. I know there are a select few items that explicitly state in their description that they work on both melee and ranged but First Blood is not one of them. Did you test if First Blood really works that way?
    I've tested a bunch of different Enhancement to Doublestrike bonuses. Body, and Weapons are currently giving the bonus. This started out of nowhere about 6 months ago, I think. Other options if that stopped of course would be Bracers for 8%. Divine Crusader gives 10% that is also Enhancement typed, I believe.

    Try it yourself, buy a plain old Rapid Strikes off hand weapon and equip it to a toon with no Doubleshot. Be patient and throw at the Dummy. Make sure not to have Guild Buffs as there's the new Doublestrike one. I had to make a fresh toon to test it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flute136 View Post
    Let me guess the bard build..Swashbuckling with nothing/orb in offhand? Gets all that doubleshot bonuses, doubleshot boost. Also got a question..Ninja spy 2nd core essentially gives you shuriken expertise, so why do you take feat still? Thanks.
    1. They are seperate but equal, and they stack.
    2. You cannot Swashbuckle and have Ninja Spy, Monks and Bards dont play together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    I've tested a bunch of different Enhancement to Doublestrike bonuses. Body, and Weapons are currently giving the bonus. This started out of nowhere about 6 months ago, I think. Other options if that stopped of course would be Bracers for 8%. Divine Crusader gives 10% that is also Enhancement typed, I believe.

    Try it yourself, buy a plain old Rapid Strikes off hand weapon and equip it to a toon with no Doubleshot. Be patient and throw at the Dummy. Make sure not to have Guild Buffs as there's the new Doublestrike one. I had to make a fresh toon to test it.
    I was thinking about doing that but too lazy actually and since you already tested it there is no need to. To me this sounds like a bug. Would be interesting if Doubleshot items are giving bonuses to Doublestrike also.
    If you want to be on the safe side there is also the new Devourer's Reaping sickle which explicitly states that it works on melee and ranged which only gives one less percent (14%) and has the added benefit of a red and a colorless augment slot to put a positive spellpower augment into so you can use your orange augment slot in the shuriken for more DPS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    I was thinking about doing that but too lazy actually and since you already tested it there is no need to. To me this sounds like a bug. Would be interesting if Doubleshot items are giving bonuses to Doublestrike also.
    If you want to be on the safe side there is also the new Devourer's Reaping sickle which explicitly states that it works on melee and ranged which only gives one less percent (14%) and has the added benefit of a red and a colorless augment slot to put a positive spellpower augment into so you can use your orange augment slot in the shuriken for more DPS.
    Hey, thanks. That's a great tip. I've been using Glass Cannon because it's better than just 15 DS%, but with a Red and Colorless that's pretty cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    Hey, thanks. That's a great tip. I've been using Glass Cannon because it's better than just 15 DS%, but with a Red and Colorless that's pretty cool.
    No problem. Glass Cannon is a nice one. I used it myself on one of my first throwing weapon toons. It might become better when they upgrade the Crystal Cove loot to higher levels soon. For now i think 14% Doubleshot and a 2d6 augment or a Meteoric Star Ruby might be the better choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    No problem. Glass Cannon is a nice one. I used it myself on one of my first throwing weapon toons. It might become better when they upgrade the Crystal Cove loot to higher levels soon. For now i think 14% Doubleshot and a 2d6 augment or a Meteoric Star Ruby might be the better choice.
    Agreed.

    Specially since I have an old 6% Doublestrike Ring for now as well.

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    on your arti build you say use a dragons edge shuriken, and if you dont have that you say use black dragonscale armor instead. my reading from wiki imply that they will stack, only because they are different values. if this is so, it is very easy to achieve 100% fort bypass...35%(dragons edge)+20%(dragonscale)+25%(precision)+15%(Grim Precision)+5%(ship buff)===100% fort bypass. Tell me if wiki is wrong about armour piercing stacking different values/from different sources:Weapon+Armor.

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    Default 10k Stars

    Concerning ki issue, using 10k stars isnt as helpfull as you think it is.. for 30seconds you have extra shuriken chances, but 15 seconds after 10k ENDS you cannot doubleshot. and 15 seconds after doubleshot penalty ends you can go in 10k again. i think that within that 15 seconds if you were doubleshotting, it would make up for not using 10k. Just my thoughts..especially if you have alot of doubleshot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flute136 View Post
    Concerning ki issue, using 10k stars isnt as helpfull as you think it is.. for 30seconds you have extra shuriken chances, but 15 seconds after 10k ENDS you cannot doubleshot. and 15 seconds after doubleshot penalty ends you can go in 10k again. i think that within that 15 seconds if you were doubleshotting, it would make up for not using 10k. Just my thoughts..especially if you have alot of doubleshot.
    As I wrote in this thread already, 10k with 30 wisdom and 0% doubleshot is equivalent to 33% (full uptime) doubleshot without 10k. Also, 10k with 44 wisdom and 0% doubleshot is equivalent to 53.3% (full uptime) doubleshot without 10k. Using 10k with 44 wisdom and 19% doubleshot (just ePLs and the ED feat, so no enhancement or destiny investment) gets the equivalent of 4.75% doubleshot (1/4 uptime), so the total benefit is .5805 extra projectiles per attack - which would require 58% full-uptime doubleshot to be its equal. 10k gives quite the benefit for quite the small investment (gear slots for Wisdom which most people would fill with Wisdom anyway for saves); doubleshot can be equal or better, but requires more focus on it. Granted, some people would rather completely ignore ki management, which would increase your personal benefit from doubleshot rather than 10k, but some people don't have the ePLs so they have to invest even more to catch up with doubleshot. It depends on your playstyle and build options.

    EDIT: I got my numbers from DDOwiki's formula, which is from a 10k research thread on these forums, and those numbers do seem to be about right. First extra hit is (3*WisMod + 30)% chance; 2nd only has a chance if the first one goes off and is (3*WisMod - 20)% chance; 3rd only rolls if the 1st and 2nd went off, and is (WisMod - 15)% chance. So your total bonus shots from 10k is somewhere around (3*WisMod+30)/100*[1 + (3*WisMod-20)/100*(1+(WisMod-20)/100))] extra hits per attack animation. If you can't read that, review your middle school and early high school math. And then, I divided by 2 because 10k is at most 1/2 uptime, to get its overall bonus to you over all combat time (if you can keep it up).
    Last edited by -Zyxas-; 07-27-2014 at 09:53 AM.
    DISCLAIMER: Forums are a place of help - and of opposition... I'm not attempting to spark hostility. I state my opinions because I think they are useful. It is the reader's choice whether to adopt my opinions. I want to show people different reasoning and options so they can enjoy the game more fully. Usually this leads to walls of text. Sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by -Zyxas- View Post
    As I wrote in this thread already, 10k with 30 wisdom and 0% doubleshot is equivalent to 33% (full uptime) doubleshot without 10k. Also, 10k with 44 wisdom and 0% doubleshot is equivalent to 53.3% (full uptime) doubleshot without 10k. Using 10k with 44 wisdom and 19% doubleshot (just ePLs and the ED feat, so no enhancement or destiny investment) gets the equivalent of 4.75% doubleshot (1/4 uptime), so the total benefit is .5805 extra projectiles per attack - which would require 58% full-uptime doubleshot to be its equal. 10k gives quite the benefit for quite the small investment (gear slots for Wisdom which most people would fill with Wisdom anyway for saves); doubleshot can be equal or better, but requires more focus on it. Granted, some people would rather completely ignore ki management, which would increase your personal benefit from doubleshot rather than 10k, but some people don't have the ePLs so they have to invest even more to catch up with doubleshot. It depends on your playstyle and build options.

    EDIT: I got my numbers from DDOwiki's formula, which is from a 10k research thread on these forums, and those numbers do seem to be about right. First extra hit is (3*WisMod + 30)% chance; 2nd only has a chance if the first one goes off and is (3*WisMod - 20)% chance; 3rd only rolls if the 1st and 2nd went off, and is (WisMod - 15)% chance. So your total bonus shots from 10k is somewhere around (3*WisMod+30)/100*[1 + (3*WisMod-20)/100*(1+(WisMod-20)/100))] extra hits per attack animation. If you can't read that, review your middle school and early high school math. And then, I divided by 2 because 10k is at most 1/2 uptime, to get its overall bonus to you over all combat time (if you can keep it up).
    Your numbers are good. EPLs are necessary

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