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  1. #1
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Default Are raids not being run?

    - just for the fun of it?

    Seems that once people get the stuffs they want from them, they avoid running the raids like a plague or worse. Why is that? Imo "Raid content is the last arena of the game that is not about how to make the rest of your party obsolete."

  2. #2
    Community Member Purkilius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    - just for the fun of it?

    Seems that once people get the stuffs they want from them, they avoid running the raids like a plague or worse. Why is that? Imo "Raid content is the last arena of the game that is not about how to make the rest of your party obsolete."
    Well people tend to pick the easy way so most people farmed the new raids on en and when they got what they wanted they realized that there was no endgame to play with their new toys so they started to TR/ETR.

    But they are being run I just led 3 raids last night.
    Argo: Hilmir - Purkilius - Jinu - Vignir

  3. #3
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    I see the same 3 or 4 raids on the lfm every night usually multiple times.

  4. #4
    Community Member Wanesa's Avatar
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    No CItW LFM couple of last weeks on Thelanis

    Thelanis: Shewind the Airbender (Sorc20/Epic5 -> Bard20/Epic8 -> Rog20/Epic8/Epic2 -> Harper_FvS20/Epic4 -> Art19), Azaxe (Rog18/Wiz2 -> Sorc20/Epic6)

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    I've played for a couple years now and have never run a raid. I'd like to at some point, but from the sound of it, most groups wouldn't want a raid noob. Also not sure how well I'd hold up in a raid. I don't spend money on healing pots and the like. I'd have to rely on my own healing (which, as a Monk for my main character, is fairly minimal).

    Might have to try soon, though.

  6. #6
    Community Member cave_diver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanesa View Post
    No CItW LFM couple of last weeks on Thelanis
    Why not put up your own LFM? Grab a few buddies so at least your not alone and it will fill.

    Turbine screwed the pouch on this one by handing out 2 raiders boxes to everyone.
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    I ran Where there is Smoke ELITE on a level 4, first life 28 hit point rogue, never TRd, no guild buffs, using a hireling cleric. One shotted two times at the first dog area.
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  7. #7
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    I think for a lot of people, raids AREN'T fun...they're just necessary to get the best gear for non raid content. If you're looking at PUGs, especially, you're getting a biased sample. The kind of players who enjoy raid style content for its own sake are the kind to form or join raiding guilds and organize on private channels.

    Lotro, at least years ago when I played, had it so raid-only gear was only good for doing raids. It gave bonuses to threat generation, bonuses to healing others, and other things that only mattered if you were in a big group. Capstone solo gear was all achievable solo and just as good as raid gear for solo play. Wish that DDO could adopt a similar design philosophy. Like TF T3 would give you a choice of buffs like "Other players in your group get XXX" (so ideally you'd have one of each in a group) but all the bonus damage was all in T2 & 1.

  8. #8
    Community Member wildbynature's Avatar
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    Which raids are you talking about? I see a fire on thunder peak, temple of deathwyrrm, fall of truth, and shroud every night. I think that there is a good reason why most people run certain raids more and certain ones less, but I'd have to go through each on a case by case basis and it's all my opinion anyway so I'm not sure how much it's worth.

    The only newer raid I don't see up often is CITW. To be honest, I'd run it more if it didn't have such a problem with lag. I didn't have a problem until a few months ago, but the lag in that quest (for me) makes it more trouble than it is worth.

    Hope you find a group soon!
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  9. #9
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Raids are usually run for the following reasons

    1. Loot
    2. XP
    3. Drug - Sometimes kicking and screaming by friends and guild mates
    4. Because they like the Raid and have fun running it


    The problem with the Loot reason is once a person has the loot there is no need to run the Raid.

    XP is only a factor if the Raid meets an XP standard. An example of a good XP/Min Raid is VoN5, and CitW does not meet that standard.

    The other reasons require either the group a person normally runs with or a sheer enjoyment of running a Raid that is not based on any other factors.

  10. #10
    Community Member Wanesa's Avatar
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    why everybody runs Shroud also on Level 28? Answer is my suggestion how to make raids atractive

    Thelanis: Shewind the Airbender (Sorc20/Epic5 -> Bard20/Epic8 -> Rog20/Epic8/Epic2 -> Harper_FvS20/Epic4 -> Art19), Azaxe (Rog18/Wiz2 -> Sorc20/Epic6)

  11. #11
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    - just for the fun of it?

    Seems that once people get the stuffs they want from them, they avoid running the raids like a plague or worse. Why is that? Imo "Raid content is the last arena of the game that is not about how to make the rest of your party obsolete."
    Some people run raids for fun, others run them for purpose. The first group are the ones still running Titan, Abbot etc just for ***** & giggles; the second group are the ones who have a gear check list and once it's all marked off rarely (if ever) return unless a friend/guildy needs help.

    You just gotta find some birds with your kind of feathers Do a little socializing on your server, maybe post in the server specific forums that you would like to join a raiding guild/channel(s). Worked for me any way. In my experience, the "run for fun" crowd (on Thelanis) mostly fills through channels, and only pugs the few remaining spots. If you're waiting around watching the LFM panel for raids, you're likely in for a long wait.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimwhit1 View Post
    I've played for a couple years now and have never run a raid. I'd like to at some point, but from the sound of it, most groups wouldn't want a raid noob. Also not sure how well I'd hold up in a raid. I don't spend money on healing pots and the like. I'd have to rely on my own healing (which, as a Monk for my main character, is fairly minimal).

    Might have to try soon, though.
    Yes, a minimal ability/unwillingness to self heal will likely cause you issues - it's just the way much of the community (seems to me) to have gone. That said, if/when you want to try out a raid (that you're presumably seeing an LFM for) just send a tell to the PL something along the lines of:

    "Hey, this would be my first time running (this raid) and I'm actually new to raiding in general. That ok?"

    It'll work wonders for both yours and the rest of the party's experience while you "learn the ropes." If they're not in the mood for helping someone new, it's best you don't join them. However, in my experience most people are more than happy to have new-to-raiding players join up, unless they're finding out you're new after you made some (perhaps crucial) mistake and followed it up with "sorry, I'm new in here."
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  12. #12
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    XP is only a factor if the Raid meets an XP standard. An example of a good XP/Min Raid is VoN5, and CitW does not meet that standard.
    im sorry, but i need to nick pick this part. Von 5 is a pre-raid. it does have very good xp, but so doesn't DQ 1. DQ 2 does not have very good xp. Von 6 isnt good xp either. Tor has good xp, though its not actually a pre-raid. Reavers i always thought had decent xp, especially if you have a good enough group and can do the puzzle easily.

  13. #13
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    im sorry, but i need to nick pick this part. Von 5 is a pre-raid. it does have very good xp, but so doesn't DQ 1. DQ 2 does not have very good xp. Von 6 isnt good xp either. Tor has good xp, though its not actually a pre-raid. Reavers i always thought had decent xp, especially if you have a good enough group and can do the puzzle easily.
    Speaking of nit picking, Von 5 is a raid: it's open to 12 person groups. I suppose since there's zero (named) loot you could argue to reduce it to the status of a "12 person quest" but that's at best a position of opinion. On the matter of XP, most (<- note I'm not saying all) raids offer decent to good XP (for their level); unless "good XP" is always and only supposed to include an unwritten "/min."

    DQ1 & Tor are 6 person groups only, hence not raids.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  14. #14
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Speaking of nit picking, Von 5 is a raid: it's open to 12 person groups. I suppose since there's zero (named) loot you could argue to reduce it to the status of a "12 person quest" but that's at best a position of opinion. On the matter of XP, most (<- note I'm not saying all) raids offer decent to good XP (for their level); unless "good XP" is always and only supposed to include an unwritten "/min."

    DQ1 & Tor are 6 person groups only, hence not raids.
    i think we are both half right. Von 5 is designed for 12 players, but there is no raid loot. i would say Von 5 is the exception to the rule since its the only raid or pre-raid that allows up to 12 players. in order to get raid loot, you have to complete the raid or pre-raid to gain access to Von 6 which certainly qualifies as a raid. scaling in these 2 is the same whether one player is in the raid or pre-raid or 12 players.

    this than questions House C wilderness. there are 3 quests that you must go through the wilderness to get to, but you can have 12 players in the group if you are doing LOB or MA. i wonder if the scaling is the same for 6 players as it would be for 12? this would be another exception to the rule.

  15. #15
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    i would say Von 5 is the exception to the rule since its the only raid or pre-raid that allows up to 12 players.
    *cough*Twilightforge*cough*

    Ok, ok. I confess that's also severely nit pickyish because pretty much nobody runs that @ level for XP, and while there are some nifty loots in the pre-raid they really are only good for midlevel TRs.

    But, you know... I just had to...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Raids are usually run for the following reasons

    1. Loot
    2. XP
    3. Drug - Sometimes kicking and screaming by friends and guild mates
    4. Because they like the Raid and have fun running it


    The problem with the Loot reason is once a person has the loot there is no need to run the Raid.

    XP is only a factor if the Raid meets an XP standard. An example of a good XP/Min Raid is VoN5, and CitW does not meet that standard.

    The other reasons require either the group a person normally runs with or a sheer enjoyment of running a Raid that is not based on any other factors.
    I've asked more than once for an Xp bump to raids so they might be run more and have got no response. Sad. I like raiding but there are just very few reasons to mostly.
    ~Thelanis ~ Khyber ~

  17. #17
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    *cough*Twilightforge*cough*

    Ok, ok. I confess that's also severely nit pickyish because pretty much nobody runs that @ level for XP, and while there are some nifty loots in the pre-raid they really are only good for midlevel TRs.

    But, you know... I just had to...
    whats interesting is that wiki says Twilight Forge is a pre-raid, but says Von 5 is a raid.

    I guess the best way to determine what a raid is and what a pre-raid is, is by end reward loot. you don't get an end reward for Von 5, DQ 1 or Twilight Forge. you have to complete these first before entering the raid itself in order to get an end reward. also, you can run Von 5 over and over with no timer and it doesn't count towards a 20th list.

  18. #18
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    - just for the fun of it?

    Seems that once people get the stuffs they want from them, they avoid running the raids like a plague or worse. Why is that? Imo "Raid content is the last arena of the game that is not about how to make the rest of your party obsolete."
    This is why I do not play that much anymore. Turbine through their decisions has forced the end game players and the raid runners out of DDO. Your question is along the same vein for the rational for why people do not run raids above normal anymore. Current DDO players want to spend as little time as possible at the end game so if they want to get something they farm normal until they get the loot and then go back to player characters at lower levels.

    The recent decision to push back the level cap to 30 which was heavily influenced by these same players who do not care about the end game on the player council continues this pattern. The current DDO players suck. I hope that DDO make a more attractive end game in the future not so much for players that might come back, but for attracting new end game players to this game.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  19. #19
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purkilius View Post
    Well people tend to pick the easy way so most people farmed the new raids on en and when they got what they wanted they realized that there was no endgame to play with their new toys so they started to TR/ETR.

    But they are being run I just led 3 raids last night.
    If by "easy" you mean less stressful or most enjoyable, I agree

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    I see the same 3 or 4 raids on the lfm every night usually multiple times.
    Yeah, I see the same 3 or 4 Raids, read the quote below

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanesa View Post
    No CItW LFM couple of last weeks on Thelanis
    CitW is a major mess. They refuse to fix it and there have been 7 updates. It was swept under the rug by previous developers and the new crop of developers don't want to touch this mess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimwhit1 View Post
    I've played for a couple years now and have never run a raid. I'd like to at some point, but from the sound of it, most groups wouldn't want a raid noob. Also not sure how well I'd hold up in a raid. I don't spend money on healing pots and the like. I'd have to rely on my own healing (which, as a Monk for my main character, is fairly minimal).

    Might have to try soon, though.
    Please buy healing potions. I was like you, initially. But CSW potions are relatively cheap once established, on a server, and they help prevent you becoming a soul stone.

    Quote Originally Posted by cave_diver View Post
    Why not put up your own LFM? Grab a few buddies so at least your not alone and it will fill.

    Turbine screwed the pouch on this one by handing out 2 raiders boxes to everyone.
    Two comments,
    First, I would love to put up a CitW but other than Wiki, I know nothing about it. Granted I would be running EN/EH (with a strong preference for Normal) but that doesn't guarantee it would fill.

    Second, CitW weapons were the best eTR choice but the new "shiny" (or should I say "smokey"?) weapons out of Thunder are superior for the eTR train ride. On top of that, every person I have talked to said you are more likely to get your weapon in the 20 completion list than from drops. CoH's are guaranteed in FoT, not CitW. Raiders boxes, if you were lucky to get 2, provide 2 weapons. There are more than two weapons out of that raid that are good.

    Now back to my comment about "shiny" Thunder weapons...

    Quote Originally Posted by wildbynature View Post
    Which raids are you talking about? I see a fire on thunder peak, temple of deathwyrrm, fall of truth, and shroud every night. I think that there is a good reason why most people run certain raids more and certain ones less, but I'd have to go through each on a case by case basis and it's all my opinion anyway so I'm not sure how much it's worth.

    The only newer raid I don't see up often is CITW. To be honest, I'd run it more if it didn't have such a problem with lag. I didn't have a problem until a few months ago, but the lag in that quest (for me) makes it more trouble than it is worth.

    Hope you find a group soon!
    Thunder/Death (I consider them the same lol), FoT, Shroud, VoN 5/6 probably are closer to the ones I see regularly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanesa View Post
    why everybody runs Shroud also on Level 28? Answer is my suggestion how to make raids atractive
    People run Shroud because it feeds the TR/eTR machine. But I agree with you. This is how they should build raids.

    Quote Originally Posted by MeliCat View Post
    I've asked more than once for an Xp bump to raids so they might be run more and have got no response. Sad. I like raiding but there are just very few reasons to mostly.
    They need to. Von 5 is very nice for the xp. This should be the metric for xp awarded. Anything less is just insult.


    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    This is why I do not play that much anymore. Turbine through their decisions has forced the end game players and the raid runners out of DDO. Your question is along the same vein for the rational for why people do not run raids above normal anymore. Current DDO players want to spend as little time as possible at the end game so if they want to get something they farm normal until they get the loot and then go back to player characters at lower levels.

    The recent decision to push back the level cap to 30 which was heavily influenced by these same players who do not care about the end game on the player council continues this pattern. The current DDO players suck. I hope that DDO make a more attractive end game in the future not so much for players that might come back, but for attracting new end game players to this game.
    DDO from the time I started playing has been about the TR train/wheel. In all honesty, you can look at the stuff being run and understand why it is or isn't being run.
    • Thunder/Death have the new shiny loot. Also feeds the eTR machine with ML 21/23/26/28(?) weapons.
    • Von 5/6 has godly XP. So much so that people often skip VoN6 because of the 3 day lockout.
    • Shroud. Feeds the TR machine and offers Raise/Displacement clickies. If either shows up on newer items, this Raid would probably die. I don't think I have ever gotten XP on this one so XP, unlike VoN 5/6 isn't the reason.
    • FoT offers CoH for your armor for your set bonus with your Helm that you have to get a lucky "roll on."

  20. #20
    2014 DDO Players Council
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    This is why I do not play that much anymore. Turbine through their decisions has forced the end game players and the raid runners out of DDO. Your question is along the same vein for the rational for why people do not run raids above normal anymore. Current DDO players want to spend as little time as possible at the end game so if they want to get something they farm normal until they get the loot and then go back to player characters at lower levels.

    The recent decision to push back the level cap to 30 which was heavily influenced by these same players who do not care about the end game on the player council continues this pattern. The current DDO players suck. I hope that DDO make a more attractive end game in the future not so much for players that might come back, but for attracting new end game players to this game.
    Level 30 was an obvious thing after 28 - it was 28 that was the surprise sprung on us by a producer. I can only assume that the delay in level 30 is them realizing they need to have the content for it.

    Can't happen fast enough. This holding time is tedious. And yes it had better be worthy.

    I won't have you rubbishing people on the council who represent more casual players. They are an important part of this game too. And surely you are not rubbishing ishr who is very much end game? Who on the PC are you talking about Norg?
    ~Thelanis ~ Khyber ~

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