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  1. #181
    Community Member Skeen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_one_dwarfforged View Post
    as for raging fury, personally i dont like weapon bond and i dont like the idea of it spreading to infest other enhancement trees. also i dont like totally changing and standardizing barbarian criticals while making them straight up better than keen edge (which to me is the only thing that barb crits should be compared to, the freebies being given to other classes should not exist and really mess with the diversity of the game imo). unless {does not stack with other crit mods} means keen and improved critical dont affect that crit range, this is mad op. because that range is already twice what a kensei gets, while being an equal or better dps class, and probably better at tactics cc due to being able to get higher str especially with fvs/dru/ftr splash. and on top of that this enhancement also gives them +2 multi on 19-20. too damn strong. i dont know why these kinds of suggestions keep coming up because unless barb criticals are broken (which i dont buy) then they are fine, and if they are broken just fixing them will make them fine again. this idea is just too strong.
    I hear what you are saying. The game should have never went past level 20, but we are way past that now. The thing is, Barbs aren't trying to be better than Kensei, they are trying to be better than Swashbucklers. How long are we going to leave a Bard as the top DPS in the game? How long is the no question about it best offensive and defensive melee class in the game going to be a Bard? Granted, there are the SWF feats in there too that make Swashbucklers shine. The way I see this rework going now is the devs are going to take these suggestions and stack more on top of it because what we have isn't enough to return the Barbarian to the king of DPS. The pendulum has been on the other side of Barbs for a while now, it's time it swings back our way.

    I don't see devs nerfing anything because folks will scream, only increasing the other classes is going to balance things. If devs were going to nerf they would have chopped the obvious lowest hanging fruit like archers using adrenaline, unbridled fury and blitz.

  2. #182
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    I was trying to be cautious with it, but OS just shouts for evasion hunting down wicked mages....
    Yes, OS does shout evasion but not in the trap evasion kind of way. OS is about enemy caster defensive and it shows all through the tree with immunity to magic missile, gain Slippery Mind and increasing will saves. That is why I think if OS was to get evasion it should be just magical. I would have to do some checking around, but I don't know if such a thing exists.

    To look at something else too, we will eventually be getting MRR. From some of the good OS players I have talked to, they love how spell defensive they are. Now add MRR into the mix. You probably know more about it than I do, but if it works out well, OS will be very strong defensively. Throw evasion into it too and we are probably looking at an OP OS barbarian with at best decent DPS. I just can't sign off on that.
    Gary Gygax quotes

    The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience.

    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

    When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.

    The secret we should never let the game masters know is that they don't need any rules.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    Occult Evasion {A warrior who is suppose to kill mages would surely have evasion?}
    You gain the evasion feat.
    You may use the higher of your Dexterity or your Constitution for your reflex save.
    1. The feature that grants Evasion should be a separate thing from the one that boosts Reflex. Builds should be able to get them in different orders, or skip one or the other if the player doesn't think she needs both.

    2. Instead of swapping in a different stat for Dexterity on Reflex saves, it'd be better to add another stat mod to the save, for two reasons. (A) So the player still cares about Dexterity some, and doesn't become purely Str+Con. (B) So that the possible reachable Reflex is in the neighborhood of what Paladin splashes have, who already add two stat mods.

    3. If giving real Evasion is too good, they could get partial Evasion (20% damage on a successful save), and it could improve when you have the capstone (10%). And it'd also be reasonable that this Evasion doesn't work on mechanical traps.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabbler View Post
    Ha ha, someone reading this thread today just edited http://ddowiki.com/page/Frenzied_Berserker_enhancements, to claim that it's a bug for Storm's Eye to have massive self damage. Despite it being right there in the description text.
    I'm confused, is the actual maximum self-damage 25 stacks x d20 (maximum of 500 hp) or 25 stacks x d6 (maximum of 150 hp)?

    If scrapping this capstone isn't desired, I would consider increasing the melee damage from +1 to +2 per stack and reducing the self-damage to a maximum of 25 stacks x d4 (so maximum of 100 hp) every 6 seconds.

    Could also add a passive element to the capstone (eg. +2 melee damage always), so there's a benefit even if u never want to use the situational clicky.
    Thelanis:
    Annikka (Sorc), Dannikka (F), Jannikka (Rgr)
    Tamikka (Bard), Famikka (Rgr)
    Bellynda (Cl), Mellynda (M)

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbinB View Post
    I'm confused, is the actual maximum self-damage 25 stacks x d20 (maximum of 500 hp) or 25 stacks x d6 (maximum of 150 hp)?
    From back when I tried it, the damage looked more like 25d20. But it's confusing, especially since Dungeon Scaling might get involved (although not in public).

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbinB View Post
    If scrapping this capstone isn't desired, I would consider increasing the melee damage from +1 to +2 per stack and reducing the self-damage to a maximum of 25 stacks x d4 (so maximum of 100 hp) every 6 seconds.
    Well, I do suggest they mostly scrap it. But if they were to try fixing StormsEye to be usable, the first place to start editing is the 50% hp threshold to turn it off. Barbarians go below half health all the time, and it's not something especially risky.

    For example, a revamped Storm's Eye:
    Cost 100 hp. 1d10 self-damage per tick, not stacking. Each stack is +1 damage, +1 crit damage, 1% Vulnerability, 1% heal amp, +3 max hp. Ends after (30+con mod)*2 seconds. If you go below 0 hp the effect ends, you heal to 33%+100, and are dazed for 5 seconds.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabbler View Post
    Well, I do suggest they mostly scrap it. But if they were to try fixing StormsEye to be usable, the first place to start editing is the 50% hp threshold to turn it off. Barbarians go below half health all the time, and it's not something especially risky.

    For example, a revamped Storm's Eye:
    Cost 100 hp. 1d10 self-damage per tick, not stacking. Each stack is +1 damage, +1 crit damage, 1% Vulnerability, 1% heal amp, +3 max hp. Ends after (30+con mod)*2 seconds. If you go below 0 hp the effect ends, you heal to 33%+100, and are dazed for 5 seconds.
    Seems like a reasonable revamp suggestion. And certainly, decreasing or removing the 50% threshold would be necessary as well. (I was gonna suggest decreasing to 20%, just forgot to include it).
    Thelanis:
    Annikka (Sorc), Dannikka (F), Jannikka (Rgr)
    Tamikka (Bard), Famikka (Rgr)
    Bellynda (Cl), Mellynda (M)

  7. #187
    Community Member the_one_dwarfforged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skeen View Post
    The thing is, Barbs aren't trying to be better than Kensei, they are trying to be better than Swashbucklers.

    I don't see devs nerfing anything because folks will scream, only increasing the other classes is going to balance things. If devs were going to nerf they would have chopped the obvious lowest hanging fruit like archers using adrenaline, unbridled fury and blitz.
    i think swashbuckler was overdone because of exactly the same kind of thing that keeps popping up in this thread. people wants barbs to become "better" and based on the suggestions that repeatedly come up regarding increasing the already tasty crit bonuses they get, all i hear is "dont solve anything, just make barbs the new fotm." what has been done with bards or monkchers is not a good reason to introduce a new fotm that is only people because it is so much stronger than the next best choice. and the fact that one would even make the comparison of barb bs bard and find barbs lacking is just sad and a symptom of the disease which im trying to point out and prevent from getting into these suggestions.

    people may throw tantrums over nerfs, but i just see that as expressing their inner noob.

  8. #188
    Community Member Skeen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_one_dwarfforged View Post
    i think swashbuckler was overdone because of exactly the same kind of thing that keeps popping up in this thread. people wants barbs to become "better" and based on the suggestions that repeatedly come up regarding increasing the already tasty crit bonuses they get, all i hear is "dont solve anything, just make barbs the new fotm." what has been done with bards or monkchers is not a good reason to introduce a new fotm that is only people because it is so much stronger than the next best choice. and the fact that one would even make the comparison of barb bs bard and find barbs lacking is just sad and a symptom of the disease which im trying to point out and prevent from getting into these suggestions.

    people may throw tantrums over nerfs, but i just see that as expressing their inner noob.
    OK, +1 for everything is fine just start doling out nerfs to everyone except Kensei.

  9. #189

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    Quote Originally Posted by painkiller3 View Post
    Haven't read the whole thread but looks like a lot of good stuff...any thoughts to making an epic rage feat that gives some of the high end stuff (Prr, deathless frenzy, whatever) without having to worry about being OP for heroic. Also 1dr and 2prr per barb level seems thematic and scales
    I like this idea, yes, we should definitely have an epic feat to present as well.

    Ideas? I will ponder it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tralfaz81 View Post
    First off, a big thanks to silver for all the hard work on this. This is a huge project and silvers been doing a fabulous job on listening to everyone’s input and trying to tie it all together.
    You folks are wonderful to work with, and I am having fun!
    Woot!
    I hope I’m not about to throw a spanner/monkey wrench into the works but I’d like to bring up something we might want to consider. I don’t have a lot of free time to throw to the project and try to give input when I can.

    We’ve been mostly working on the enhancement pass and the trees and I think we should split our attention between changes to both core abilities and the enhancements.
    Yes it would be nice to have a group of suggestions for the Core of Barbarian as well.
    I can start looking into writing that up.
    Perhaps even as alternative to enhancement approach.


    For example DR. Right now we’re working on the changes to make to it in the tree. I think it would work better if there was a slight bump to the core abilities and then an additional increase in one of the paths where you can pick a customizable enhancement that fits in one tree for how you like to play.

    Off hand I’d like to see changes to DR, the cool down on uncanny dodge, some form of bump to healing, and trap sense at the core of the class.
    Nods, I will look uncanny dodge over, time in pnp D&D is about 6 times slower than DDO.

    Trap sense was a core ability that, like DR, has become almost useless since they bumped up the damage of the traps. Since the changes you don’t see the traps coming like you used to. A barb is a scout and supposed to be able to quickly move ahead and find these things before the party reaches them and now we can’t.
    I will look over trap sense too.
    I still want OS to have that uber con based evasion, it sets it off as distinctive with all those penalties of weapon bond.

    We’ve talked about a Con bonus to pots (an additional hit point of healing per Con bonus). It’s a small bump and should go into the core (maybe under wilderness lore) with the option of something more powerful (like healing amp) under one or two of the trees. This will give at least a small bump to the offensive players.
    Hmmm...I total forgot that one, we do want that presented somehow.

    And finally, when it comes time to polish this all up, keep in mind the strength of the additions and scale them accordingly. Stronger ones should be placed into higher tiers with X amount of levels required and X amount of points spent in the tree to get them. The more we balance it out now, the less likely we are to get a nerf later on.
    Nods, we don't want to appear power hungry, just trying to make barbarians popularly playable again.

  10. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by the_one_dwarfforged View Post
    ..and prevent from getting into these suggestions...
    You are being very helpful, and I appreciate it.

    Thank you, and Thank you everyone, you are helping me so much here.





    Barbarians have a huge handicap at end game, they cannot use Coccon while they are raged.



    Basic request, could have the highest possible cure potion a wizard could legally make in D&D pen and paper ruleset available somewhere for X favor from Y Patron?

    Here is the 3rd edition rules.
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems...reatingPotions

    One is limited to 3rd level spells.
    Highest level spell that can be made into a potion is Cure Serious Wounds.

    Highest level a cure serious wounds can be cast is 15.

    Cure Serious Wounds

    Conjuration (Healing)


    Level:
    Brd 3, Clr 3, Drd 4, Pal 4, Rgr 4, Healing 3

    This spell functions like cure light wounds, except that it cures 3d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +15).


    So it would do 3d8+15 positive spell energy, and we could make it min level 15.
    It could be favored farmed for those silly people who don't want to be in a guild.
    The Sovereign Host could be crafting them or the Twelve.

    How about Free Agent~Famous/House D~Commended/The 12~Member of the 12 or other Favor?


    This is a simple pnp legal request that has been requested many times.



    How is this an improvement over the current guild vendor cure serious potions?
    They are caster level 5, whereas this would be caster level 15.
    So instead of 3d8+5 they would be 3d8+15 which is a nice but balanced addition to the game.

    Sure members of the twelve which is a adventure pack with level 16 quests would have access to a level 15+ wizard who had the brew potion feat?
    Last edited by Silverleafeon; 07-25-2014 at 08:13 PM.

  11. #191
    Community Member Skeen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    Barbarians have a huge handicap at end game, they cannot use Coccon while they are raged.
    How about making all false life or vitality items give a double bonus for Barbarians like it is for SP with Sorcerers and Favored Souls? Actually I'd say make any Strength items double, but would settle for doubling Hit Point items.

  12. #192
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Ok, first, can you please start a separate topic so all changes you make will be in Post #1 and #2. That way it is easier to follow your revisions and because this is getting off the topic of the OP although I doubt he minds (but I could be wrong).

    Second, my thoughts:

    Occult Slayer is about killing Wizards and their ilk. Speed (innate) and Stun (living)/Trip (for undead) would be very useful skills that are reliable on EE. This needs to be addressed and I think you are brushing the surface. Barbarians in 3.0 (along with Monks) were the run speed champions. Now it is Bard and Monk. I feel this needs to be addressed and Occult Slayer would be the proper tree to address this in.
    Call it:
    • First to Battle - Innate Run Speed (1%/Barb) - Yeah its boring but easy to code
    • Bull Rush - which mimics the Lunge from Rogue Acrobat, Monk Step, and ED that allow super fast speed for a very short distance. Make it unique to Barbarian. Damages enemies in path at the cost of Fortification. PnP Charge rules but Fortification instead of AC.

    Lets talk about weapon bond. Make this like Ki which you expend to gain short term benefits to your weapons attacks. Monks expend Ki, Barbarians expend the bond they are creating with their weapon. This way you are not "building" up to some magical number that is lost if you switch weapons. Buffs on your weapon would last 1-3 minutes encouraging the Barbarian not to smell the flowers during adventures and keep to his thematic theme of waying waste to the inhabitants of any dungeon he enters. And if they have to switch to a Blunt weapon (for example), as soon as they switch back to their main weapon, they have the remaining time on their initial weapon which returns to the process of building "bond" to spend for the next time the buff expires.


    Frenzied Beserker is about damaging self for damage. I'm not keen on many of the suggestions presented but a workable compromise for EE's should be found. Your already taking huge spikes of damage in EE so inflicting more harm on yourself needs to be worth it.

    Something not addressed that I feel needs to be addressed is placing an Active Fighting Style in one of the tree's. This would be a multiple selector for either 2HF, 2WF, or SWF. Probably Tier 2 or 3.
    • TWF - Gain 20% off hand Attack chance. Anti-requisite Ranger tree equivalent.
    • 2HF - -1 Sec. on your Cleave's cool downs (all or most of the many cleaves in game). Requires 2HF.
    • SWF - You can now use a Small Shield or Large Shield while SWF. Anti-requisite Bard eqivalent
    • Passive regardless of style - Modify +W[X], Crit. Multiplier and Threat Range of all Martial, D.Axes, and Q-Staffs so they are truly deadly in the hands of a Barbarian.

    When trying to think of SWF in historical context, the best I could think of would be the Norse; Wielding a large shield and Axe was my justification; in DnD literature, Dwarf's like their shields too. Also, not every barbarian should look the same and three different fighting styles allows this to happen. This line of thought was inspired by the 2WF Dwarf OS on the forums now (Sorry forgot the build name or author). Could even place in Core, probably a lvl 12 Core so a player takes a majority of Barbarian.

    Please create a new forum with your suggestions so all edits remain in the first and second response to give proper feedback

  13. #193

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    Thank you for your feedback.
    Last edited by Silverleafeon; 07-26-2014 at 02:27 AM.

  14. #194

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    moving to here https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ject-Barbarian for any future discussion on our improve the barbarian project

    Thank you Zerkul for your patience and understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zerkul View Post
    Storm's Eye: You hit harder, but not smarter.
    Activate: You gain +1 melee damage, -1 Melee Attack, -1 AC. You take 1d20 untyped damage every 6 seconds. These modifiers and damage over time gain one stack every six seconds, up to 25 stacks. This ends when you are below 50% health. Activation Cost: 100 Hit Points. Cooldown: 3 minutes.
    AP Cost: 1 Progression: 40 Requires: Death Frenzy, Barbarian Level 20

    Does anyone use it? I used it and also the 1d20 damage you get each 6 seconds raises in stacks so actually you would take 25d6 each 6 seconds on 25th stack of it. It was awful, I wonder if this is WAI.

    Z.

    And yes I agree the current one is awful...

  15. #195
    Community Member Psiandron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    Basic request, could have the highest possible cure potion a wizard could legally make in D&D pen and paper ruleset available somewhere for X favor from Y Patron?

    Here is the 3rd edition rules.
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems...reatingPotions

    One is limited to 3rd level spells.
    Highest level spell that can be made into a potion is Cure Serious Wounds.

    Highest level a cure serious wounds can be cast is 15.

    Cure Serious Wounds

    Conjuration (Healing)


    Level:
    Brd 3, Clr 3, Drd 4, Pal 4, Rgr 4, Healing 3

    This spell functions like cure light wounds, except that it cures 3d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +15).


    So it would do 3d8+15 positive spell energy, and we could make it min level 15.
    It could be favored farmed for those silly people who don't want to be in a guild.
    The Sovereign Host could be crafting them or the Twelve.

    How about Free Agent~Famous/House D~Commended/The 12~Member of the 12 or other Favor?


    This is a simple pnp legal request that has been requested many times.



    How is this an improvement over the current guild vendor cure serious potions?
    They are caster level 5, whereas this would be caster level 15.
    So instead of 3d8+5 they would be 3d8+15 which is a nice but balanced addition to the game.

    Sure members of the twelve which is a adventure pack with level 16 quests would have access to a level 15+ wizard who had the brew potion feat?

    Just to be fussy about the details.

    CSW, in DDO anyway, is: 3d6 +6 +1per caster level

    Which is a bit of a net gain, in terms of average yield and low possible, over what you posted above Silver.
    (3d8+15= 18-39hp ; 3d6+6+15= 24-39hp)

    It's a nice workaround, btw. Turbine has always claimed that they were limited to CSW by WotC. Whether you believe that or not, this would still fit within that limitation.

    Ofc, characters in DDO are still bloated hit point bags compared to deities in D&D, so a pot like that still amounts to throwing a hotdog down a hallway.

    Heal amp would help quite a bit. A total amp of 1.8 or so would make a pot like the one you're talking average around 54hp each. Hardly game-breaking.
    Quote Originally Posted by MalkavianX View Post
    and then dropped it like a burning kitten

  16. #196

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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    Please create a new forum with your suggestions so all edits remain in the first and second response to give proper feedback
    Quote Originally Posted by Psiandron View Post
    .....Heal amp would help quite a bit. A total amp of 1.8 or so would make a pot like the one you're talking average around 54hp each. Hardly game-breaking.,,,,
    Replied to both your posts here:

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5388933

    as we are moving our shop into the barbarian class forums where we belong.

  17. #197
    Community Member Skeen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skeen View Post
    Agreed. Balance, intimidate, spot is more useful than what's there now. Unless of course you are splashing Thief to get evasion. The proposed Evasion should be for all Barbarian trees by the way, not just OS.
    Even though I indicated it would be a good idea to replace Listen, Search and Spot, I also just used this enhancement in my 2 Thief/18 Barb build and found it to be very convenient. If Evasion is made part of the core Barbarian then I wouldn't have to take take Thief levels to get Evasion and would not need Listen, Search and Spot. Since I took the Thief levels it's nice to put some points into trapper skills and serve as a backup trapper when needed. Well, actually primary trapper most of the time it seems.

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