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  1. #1
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Default Its time to un-nerf THF.

    In U5 THF was nerfed to disallow glancing blows when moving. The conjecture here is well known that it was due to "twitch" a moving combat style where people were interrupting their swing animation in order to increase attack speed a small amount. Disallowing glances while moving for everyone made it so that "twitch" was less DPS than standing still and swinging.

    With the advent of SWF, THF is losing ground in what it is supposed to be good at. AOE DPS. If I have to move to get into position, the glances will not proc and I lose DPS -vs- being nailed to the ground, and being nailed to the ground in EE quests means suffering an accute bout of SMDS, Sudden Melee Death Syndrome.

    Time to un-nerf THF. Let this combat style keep its niche at being best at AOE melee DPS.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    In U5 THF was nerfed to disallow glancing blows when moving. The conjecture here is well known that it was due to "twitch" a moving combat style where people were interrupting their swing animation in order to increase attack speed a small amount. Disallowing glances while moving for everyone made it so that "twitch" was less DPS than standing still and swinging.

    With the advent of SWF, THF is losing ground in what it is supposed to be good at. AOE DPS. If I have to move to get into position, the glances will not proc and I lose DPS -vs- being nailed to the ground, and being nailed to the ground in EE quests means suffering an accute bout of SMDS, Sudden Melee Death Syndrome.

    Time to un-nerf THF. Let this combat style keep its niche at being best at AOE melee DPS.
    I'm going to jump in quickly for the rare opportunity to post:

    I agree with Chai.

  3. #3
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    I came in expecting this to just be a "SWF is better than us now, therefore we've been nerfed" thread...

    I'd be supportive of this, though. With the way the game's developed, mobility has become more of an asset than the AOE effects that THF offers. There's no reason that THF shouldn't enjoy full effect while moving, just as the other styles do. Or else, to be fair, really, there should be something like a -20% Doublestrike (SWF) and Offhand Chance (TWF) penalty while moving, too.

  4. #4
    Founder Lifespawn's Avatar
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    make it part of the feats 25% 50% 100% glancing blows the feats themselves are virtually useless currently.

    I think the feats need more than just this bonus but I think it could help get where it needs to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Fernando has yet to even suggest a nerf of anything.
    Oh and by the way (referring to your sig), we aren't nerfing the Torc.

  5. #5
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifespawn View Post
    make it part of the feats 25% 50% 100% glancing blows the feats themselves are virtually useless currently.

    I think the feats need more than just this bonus but I think it could help get where it needs to be.
    Only problem with increasing the damage that much is there are enhancements and abilities that raise the percent of damage from glancing blows above the normal. I don't think you want glancing blows to be able to do more damage than the main blow.

    I think i heard Cetus mention letting glancing blows crit. If that could be coded i would go for that.

    Also yes, i agree with Chai.

  6. #6
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Not sure how this works in terms of game balance, but two suggestions to buff THF:
    • Let glancing blows proc while moving.
    • Make glancing blows crit like regular attacks.

  7. #7
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Thank you!
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  8. #8
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifespawn View Post
    make it part of the feats 25% 50% 100% glancing blows the feats themselves are virtually useless currently.

    I think the feats need more than just this bonus but I think it could help get where it needs to be.
    I think glancing blows should be at 100% from level 1 without any feat investment. Even at low levels THF should be about AOE damage. To compensate for this low level buff, and to make the feats useful I'd say have 2-handed weapons start out with only 1.0x strength mod instead of 1.5x (like old PnP 2-handed weapons), and have the feats increase this to 2.0x like SWF or even 2.5x.

    Honestly a buff to THF shouldn't just be an un-nerf to twitch fighting, but rather something that help the style fit its niche.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Not sure how this works in terms of game balance, but two suggestions to buff THF:
    • Let glancing blows proc while moving.
    • Make glancing blows crit like regular attacks.
    The second one. Glancing blows are not going to be the real deal until they crit. Nowadays, that is what it is all about, crits.

    Otherwise, adding 50% of the base damage every 3rd attack is not going to be much of a change, I feel.

    Should all glancing blows crit or be a probability? That is I think the discussion.

  10. #10
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Thank you!
    Great.. just great.. now people are agreeing with you...
    Last edited by JOTMON; 07-07-2014 at 08:55 PM.
    Jotmon - Let's not forget why we play these games - to have fun - ~
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  11. #11
    Hopeless Romantic dunklezhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    The second one. Glancing blows are not going to be the real deal until they crit. Nowadays, that is what it is all about, crits.

    Otherwise, adding 50% of the base damage every 3rd attack is not going to be much of a change, I feel.

    Should all glancing blows crit or be a probability? That is I think the discussion.
    How about they don't crit per se, but whenever you crit with the main attack, that crit has a chance to proc glancing crits?

    See how the mobs like them damage spikes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The best of the best DDO players generally overperform when given a real challenge

  12. #12
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    Great.. just great.. now people are agreeing with you...
    I prefer the Vault's commentary on Cetus.... just saying...
    Ironically, me too

    But I gotta say, this is a refreshing change of pace
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  13. #13
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    The second one. Glancing blows are not going to be the real deal until they crit. Nowadays, that is what it is all about, crits.

    Otherwise, adding 50% of the base damage every 3rd attack is not going to be much of a change, I feel.

    Should all glancing blows crit or be a probability? That is I think the discussion.
    Glancing blows already have their own attack rolls. They should just have their own crit rolls too, at the same percent chance as the normal attacks.

    Will this be power creep? Yup. If they do this, they will pretty much have to give two weapon fighting full strength bonus on off hand. Not a problem on epic elite, but it will make everything else easier.

    Course i would be in favor of somewhat nerfing blitz too. It's the only epic moment that can be maintained perpetually. That's the main problem with it. Course then there may be no way for melee to match caster damage output. Not sure how they can nerf that without teeing off a lot of people.

  14. #14
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    The second one. Glancing blows are not going to be the real deal until they crit. Nowadays, that is what it is all about, crits.

    Otherwise, adding 50% of the base damage every 3rd attack is not going to be much of a change, I feel.

    Should all glancing blows crit or be a probability? That is I think the discussion.
    Glances are about X% of non crit damage. They can change them to X% of damage, so when the crit occurs, the glance will be the same X% of that critical hit.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #15
    Community Member ferd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    I agree with Chai.
    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I'd be supportive of this, .
    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    . Also yes, i agree with Chai.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Thank you!
    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    I think glancing blows should be at 100% from level 1 without any feat investment. .
    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    Great.. just great.. now people are agreeing with you...
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Ironically
    WOW!!!!!! Not only are people agreeing with Chai, Cetus posted agreeably with no video!

    BRAVO Chai. (and yes I agree with you)



    Oh I need to add this (just in case)




  16. #16
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Glances are about X% of non crit damage. They can change them to X% of damage, so when the crit occurs, the glance will be the same X% of that critical hit.
    The more i think about it, letting glancing blows crit might be too much, at least if you let them proc when moving. Maybe one or the other. Somebody will have to do the math, but if you let glances crit, on some builds won't you end up with some ridiculous increases in damage output? Much more than the relatively small advantage that single weapon fighting currently enjoys. Maybe just stick with your original idea of letting them proc while moving. If that's not enough maybe allow them to proc on all attacks.

  17. #17
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Will this be power creep? Yup. If they do this, they will pretty much have to give two weapon fighting full strength bonus on off hand. Not a problem on epic elite, but it will make everything else easier.

    Course i would be in favor of somewhat nerfing blitz too. It's the only epic moment that can be maintained perpetually. That's the main problem with it. Course then there may be no way for melee to match caster damage output. Not sure how they can nerf that without teeing off a lot of people.
    Power creep in heroic level abilities is, in my opinion, the best way to achieve balance right now without upsetting too many people or builds. If you only buff the weak classes/feats/enhancements, instead of nerfing the strong ones, then builds don't get broken. The best way to then counteract this powercreep would be, like you impied, nerfs to the strongest destinies/epic abilities. Lets face it. Everyone has access to things like blitz if they want and its not special or unique to anybody's build. Nerfing it doesn't actually break anything in the same manner that nerfing low level class abilities would (such as divine grace)
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  18. #18
    Community Member kanordog's Avatar
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    I do agree with OP.

  19. #19
    Community Member Full_Bleed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Glances are about X% of non crit damage. They can change them to X% of damage, so when the crit occurs, the glance will be the same X% of that critical hit.
    This should be the way it works. Though I could see the % being affected by the THF Feats and some enhancements.

    And, yes, THF should be able to swing while moving and get glancing blows. One of the best thing about melee in this game is movement during it. They'd still be getting the -4 to hit when doing so and they could even make Spring Attack more useful by also having it modify the glancing crit % (and maybe even give TWF the lowest tier glancing blows while moving and attacking with Spring Attack since TWF and THF now have SWF envy).

  20. #20
    Community Member Alternative's Avatar
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    I agree, and while at it, un-nerf twf to the state from around u5

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