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  1. #1
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Default SWF Damage - A thread for demonstrations

    Well, since the topic of this thread concerns combat styles that currently exist on live, I thought it would be beneficial to steer away from lamaland and post it in a non-test server category.

    The purpose of this thread is to show some footage comparing THF, TWF and SWF damage output with an otherwise identical build. I tried to control for as many things as I could, with occasional slip ups with regard to stance or movement. I noted some of the major differences below. My own contribution here will specifically be THF vs. SWF below.

    My goal here is to hopefully have other folks who can test SWF in myriad contexts post their data here, and hopefully it'll serve as tentative evidence for where the combat styles stand with respect to each other, and what the margins may look like.




    General Performance:

    SWF

    Cetus SWF Blitzed with Thunder-forged Bastard Sword Zeligat+Mass Mob Takedown in Earth stance #1

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkG4...ature=youtu.be

    Zeligat Takedown: About 1 minute



    Cetus SWF Blitzed with Thunder-forged Bastard Sword Zeligat+Mass Mob Takedown in Earth Stance #2

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXew...ature=youtu.be

    Zeligat Takedown: About 51 Seconds

    NEW: SWF WGU Solo Speedrun: 30 minutes 3 seconds

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCYz...ature=youtu.be

    Zeligat Takedown: 54 Seconds


    THF:

    Cetus THF Blitzed with Thunder-forged Falchion + Manyshot Volley Zeligat+Mass Mob Takedown in Earth+Wind Stance

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKTLXzPogEE

    Zeligat Takedown: 1:08

    Breaking the Ice Giant:

    Cetus THF Demonstration on Live: Breaking the Ice Giant Boss Takedown: 2:20

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsbOsHcsxxs

    Cetus SWF Demonstration on Lamannia #5: Breaking the Ice Giant Boss Takedown: 2:04

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v90RCsheogE

    Noteworthy differences:

    - My THF counterpart didn't use quick strike. The SWF'r did

    - The THF giant was quite a bit lower on hitpoints than the SWF giant at first hit.

    - SWF build had grandmaster wind stance, the THF fighter had master wind stance. 2.5% doublestrike difference


    Harpie Takedown:

    SWF

    Cetus SWF Harpie Takedown with Thunder Forged Dwarven Axe in Grandmaster Air Stance 1:08

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2s3yYYjsjM

    Cetus SWF Harpie Takedown with Thunder Forged Dwarven Axe in Grandmaster Earth Stance 1:17

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1IoVI9a_4o

    THF:

    Cetus THF Harpie Takedown with Thunder Forged Falchion in Master Earth Stance 1:28

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4g7nKqNBl4
    Last edited by Cetus; 07-12-2014 at 04:36 PM.
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  2. #2
    Community Member Miahoo's Avatar
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    Can you please make a calculation conclusion ? (a table also works).
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  3. #3
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiahooJunk View Post
    Can you please make a calculation conclusion ? (a table also works).
    I don't really do dps calculations anymore (mainly because it nearly impossible now), but if I had to make an educated guess I'd say that lower end builds will probably see about a 5% lead for SWF, whereas high end builds like cetus would see around 15% lead for SWF. I wouldn't expect SWF to get much more then a 20% lead over THF without working in swashbucker enhancements (in which case you would never be THF anyway). Similarily, I also wouldn't expect THF to ever beat SWF in single target dps unless the build is specifically spec'd for THF bonuses (like barbarians or something).
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  4. #4
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiahooJunk View Post
    Can you please make a calculation conclusion ? (a table also works).
    Making a calculation "conclusion" I can't do. I can tentatively say that the AoE DPS from SWF is similar to that of THF - I didn't notice any dramatic differences between the two for mass mob situations, but for single targets SWF is quite a bit more effective.

    In other words, there is no compelling reason in the game for preferring THF as a combat style right now. SWF simply does things as good or better throughout all combat contexts.

    I'm not sure if TWF is suffering the same fate, I'd like to see someone do a few of those videos.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    So is it time to undo the nerf to glancing blows when moving yet, or do we still live under the anvil that THF should have to stay nailed to the ground to receive full benefit?
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  6. #6
    Community Member Bargol's Avatar
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    Have you watched his videos? The only reason why swf is better for the OP is because he is flying around mobs constantly cleaving.

    I would hazard a guess that maybe 1 in 100 players has the ability to play in ths way. It requires a good programmable mouse and excellent hand eye coordination on both the mouse and keyboard.....for everyone else its stop and cleave or fly around and swing without cleaves. This would obviously put THF far in front on mass mobs/trash situations and swf in front on single target mobs.

    So the real comparison that needs to be done is SWF vs. TWF as most players will not be able to achieve the same results THF vs. SWF as the OP.

    IMO swf is about right currently, however it should be changed to allow sword and board fighters / pallys to make full use of the line. This would bring sword and board up to the same lofty perches THF, TWF, and SWF enjoy.....because sword and board is a fighting style!!!

  7. #7
    Community Member Seikojin's Avatar
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    Thanks for the videos. Looks like SWF is strong versus single targets and THF is still stronger against many targets. Which is wai as far as I can see. However, swf bswords is close to thf for crowds. And I am Sure you will have the same videos with TWF when you can Lam it up.

    Lots of sticking and moving.

  8. #8
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    Default SWF Fun with Disco and Coup de Grace

    Currently running a mut that has 2 levels of PDK fighter, 1 level sorc, and the rest bard.

    I'm not using a rapier at the moment (because I don't have one yet and need to run Missing). I had a pile of khops, so I'm using those for SWF.

    I'm having lots of fun with the disco ball and Coup de Grace from the Swashbuckler enhancement tree with mobs!

    Coup de Grace: Multiselector, Melee or Ranged Attack: Make an attack with +3[W]. If it strikes any Fascinated, Sleeping, Dancing, Dazed, Tripped, Mesmerized, Paralyzed, Petrified, or Stunned enemy, it must make a Fortitude save (d20 + your Perform skill) or die instantly. (12 second cooldown)

    Ball goes up. Monsters dance and I work my way thru the crowd using Coup de Grace and hack and slash while it's on cool down; Coup de Grace baddie, hack n slash baddie, Coup de Grace baddie, etc.

    Just a different way of doing the same with SWF.

  9. #9
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bargol View Post
    Have you watched his videos? The only reason why swf is better for the OP is because he is flying around mobs constantly cleaving.

    I would hazard a guess that maybe 1 in 100 players has the ability to play in ths way. It requires a good programmable mouse and excellent hand eye coordination on both the mouse and keyboard.....for everyone else its stop and cleave or fly around and swing without cleaves. This would obviously put THF far in front on mass mobs/trash situations and swf in front on single target mobs.

    So the real comparison that needs to be done is SWF vs. TWF as most players will not be able to achieve the same results THF vs. SWF as the OP.

    IMO swf is about right currently, however it should be changed to allow sword and board fighters / pallys to make full use of the line. This would bring sword and board up to the same lofty perches THF, TWF, and SWF enjoy.....because sword and board is a fighting style!!!
    Running in circles cleaving is fairly common actually, and doesnt require more than a two button generic mouse. With todays overinflated damage numbers it is well known that players will not win a hit for hit DPS race -vs- those mobs, so they use avoidance tactics when cleaves are on cooldown, then wade in and cleave, then avoid again until the cooldowns are off timer. Rinse repeat. This causes the most damage to the mobs while remaining at risk of taking damage the least amount of time, and provides alot of downtime for healing.

    Killing trash in this manner brings into question why we are still calling it DPS, because for most of the S - (seconds) the character is not even swinging the weapon, but circle strafe kiting to avoid damage until their AOE cooldown timers expire.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #10
    Community Member Chilldude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bargol View Post
    I would hazard a guess that maybe 1 in 100 players has the ability to play in ths way. It requires a good programmable mouse and excellent hand eye coordination on both the mouse and keyboard.....for everyone else its stop and cleave or fly around and swing without cleaves.
    1 in 100!? No. =D It's not difficult at all, especially if you've every played FPS games where when you circle strafe you actually HAVE TO AIM. Seriously, go try it out, it's very easy to do, you don't have to aim, just cirlce strafe while holding the mouse button down and press your cleave buttons every time they come off CD.

  11. #11
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bargol View Post
    Have you watched his videos? The only reason why swf is better for the OP is because he is flying around mobs constantly cleaving.

    I would hazard a guess that maybe 1 in 100 players has the ability to play in ths way. It requires a good programmable mouse and excellent hand eye coordination on both the mouse and keyboard.....for everyone else its stop and cleave or fly around and swing without cleaves. This would obviously put THF far in front on mass mobs/trash situations and swf in front on single target mobs.

    So the real comparison that needs to be done is SWF vs. TWF as most players will not be able to achieve the same results THF vs. SWF as the OP.

    IMO swf is about right currently, however it should be changed to allow sword and board fighters / pallys to make full use of the line. This would bring sword and board up to the same lofty perches THF, TWF, and SWF enjoy.....because sword and board is a fighting style!!!
    If you were comparing two different players in two different play styles you may have a point.
    But Cetus is comparing both.. The caliber of his ability, computer, mouse, internet speed, any other player factors etc... is now irrelevant since he is showing both SWF and 2HF.

    We are left with the only measurable difference.. The comparison of 2HF and SWF, weapon choice and associated enhancements.

    Is there a point to this comparison .. now that is the question... only the mass migration to SWF Bards can say... the extinction of 2HF has yet to be determined...
    .. now If this was the stock market.... 2HF wound have just taken a huge stock dump.... and historians are preparing the remember when 2HF were the top....
    Last edited by JOTMON; 07-07-2014 at 01:59 PM.
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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Cetus THF Blitzed with Thunder-forged Falchion + Manyshot Volley Zeligat+Mass Mob Takedown in Earth+Wind Stance
    Would a sireth build fare better, do you think? Maybe a zeus build? I haven't a clue, just asking. Sireth builds get +15% attack speed, which might help narrow the gap.

  13. #13
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Running in circles cleaving is fairly common actually, and doesnt require more than a two button generic mouse. With todays overinflated damage numbers it is well known that players will not win a hit for hit DPS race -vs- those mobs, so they use avoidance tactics when cleaves are on cooldown, then wade in and cleave, then avoid again until the cooldowns are off timer. Rinse repeat. This causes the most damage to the mobs while remaining at risk of taking damage the least amount of time, and provides alot of downtime for healing.

    Killing trash in this manner brings into question why we are still calling it DPS, because for most of the S - (seconds) the character is not even swinging the weapon, but circle strafe kiting to avoid damage until their AOE cooldown timers expire.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude View Post
    1 in 100!? No. =D It's not difficult at all, especially if you've every played FPS games where when you circle strafe you actually HAVE TO AIM. Seriously, go try it out, it's very easy to do, you don't have to aim, just cirlce strafe while holding the mouse button down and press your cleave buttons every time they come off CD.
    Both of these guys are head on - I don't know why my movement is considered "elite". Its easy.
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  14. #14
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post

    In other words, there is no compelling reason in the game for preferring THF as a combat style right now. SWF simply does things as good or better throughout all combat contexts.
    SWF is not as good against groups of mobs and THF didn't get worse, so there is no reason to avoid THF either.


    I'm so glad Cetus started yet another thread for this.
    Last edited by Postumus; 07-07-2014 at 02:56 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Both of these guys are head on - I don't know why my movement is considered "elite". Its easy.
    Noooo! People need their myths, just play along.

  16. #16
    Community Member Bargol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Both of these guys are head on - I don't know why my movement is considered "elite". Its easy.
    Both of "these guys" jumped to conclusions to what I was saying. I and many do this when running anything epic elite (epic hard is a joke), but other then the forums do you think the average player plays this way? Go join some of the unwashed masses running crystal cove or some other newbie pug and you will see them doing anything but this...mostly being dead though.

    ...but I forgot you prefer THF over everything else and want to make sure its always on top, when swf is fine compared to the other fighting styles even though you are trying hard to prove otherwise.....well except for sword and board which you ignore whenever this discussion comes up.

    Please stop trying to get SWF nerfed

  17. #17
    Community Member Seikojin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bargol View Post
    Have you watched his videos? The only reason why swf is better for the OP is because he is flying around mobs constantly cleaving.

    I would hazard a guess that maybe 1 in 100 players has the ability to play in ths way. It requires a good programmable mouse and excellent hand eye coordination on both the mouse and keyboard.....for everyone else its stop and cleave or fly around and swing without cleaves. This would obviously put THF far in front on mass mobs/trash situations and swf in front on single target mobs.

    So the real comparison that needs to be done is SWF vs. TWF as most players will not be able to achieve the same results THF vs. SWF as the OP.

    IMO swf is about right currently, however it should be changed to allow sword and board fighters / pallys to make full use of the line. This would bring sword and board up to the same lofty perches THF, TWF, and SWF enjoy.....because sword and board is a fighting style!!!
    That means 1 in 100 players are real melee players and not lazy.

  18. #18
    Community Member legendkilleroll's Avatar
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    Much bigger issues then SWF Killing little faster than THF, your build uses most of the other balance issues so why isnt there a thread on them?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude View Post
    1 in 100!? No. =D It's not difficult at all, especially if you've every played FPS games where when you circle strafe you actually HAVE TO AIM. Seriously, go try it out, it's very easy to do, you don't have to aim, just cirlce strafe while holding the mouse button down and press your cleave buttons every time they come off CD.
    Circle strafe and cleaving doesn't even require using a mouse. If you map a key (I use Q and E) to strafe left and strafe right, then you can circle strafe in either direction by holding down the strafe key and tapping to opposite turn key.

    Circle strafe left = Hold strafe left (Q), tap turn right (D).
    Circle strafe right = Hold strafe right (E), tap turn left (A).

    The more you tap the turn key, the tighter the circle.

    If the hot keys are mapped to 1-4, then all of this can be done with just the left hand.

  20. #20
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    the extinction of 2HF has yet to be determined...
    Well, THF is technically already extinct, but the Karrnathi necromancers still have a few animated dodos running around
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