1. Originally Posted by Forzah
Reducing the HP of the mob by 100% in an instant is the highest possible DPS there is. Even measured over longer periods of time, the DPS from insta-kills can be way higher than what can be achieved through direct melee and spell damage.
you can not measure instakills in the same manner as you can dps. at least if you want any reasonable, usable data. it is not dps. there is no dps, damage per second, it is not damage per time interval. then you can charm monster and count his damage as his master dps too. these are different things.

2. Originally Posted by Lallajulia
you can not measure instakills in the same manner as you can dps. at least if you want any reasonable, usable data. it is not dps. there is no dps, damage per second, it is not damage per time interval. then you can charm monster and count his damage as his master dps too. these are different things.
You can. The formula for dps is simple:

dps = damage/time.

So if you know the damage and the total time you're done. If a mob has 10.000 hp and you kill insta-kill 3 mobs in 20 seconds, you do 30.000dmg/20secs = 1.500 dps over that period. Claiming otherwise is mathematically unsound. Or is there really a fundamental difference between casting an insta-kill spell every 5 seconds and doing a melee attack every 0.5 seconds why this is not possible?

3. So instakill spells are not damaging? lol

4. Originally Posted by Forzah
You can. The formula for dps is simple:

dps = damage/time.

So if you know the damage and the total time you're done. If a mob has 10.000 hp and you kill insta-kill 3 mobs in 20 seconds, you do 30.000dmg/20secs = 1.500 dps over that period. Claiming otherwise is mathematically unsound. Or is there really a fundamental difference between casting an insta-kill spell every 5 seconds and doing a melee attack every 0.5 seconds why this is not possible?
no. dps is constant supply of damage over time. dc spells or other such abilities are not dps, these abilities do damage in different manner, that can be measured by said kill count, but can not be correctly measured by dps. if your instakill kills kobold with 50hp and on other quest kill troll with 200k hp, that would mean your dps dropped by few hunrded times? no, its not dropped, these are statistically different things. why? because one is measured by success(dc casting), other is measured by damage delivered over time(interval).

you can take as example boss with 1 million hp.
a. how many dps delivers best dc caster with instakill abilities? zero.
b. how many dps delivers that same caster with actual dps spells - rays, dots etc? certain amount of dps.

these are different things.

5. Originally Posted by Lallajulia
no. dps is constant supply of damage over time. dc spells or other such abilities are not dps, these abilities do damage in different manner, that can be measured by said kill count, but can not be correctly measured by dps. if your instakill kills kobold with 50hp and other quest kill troll with 200k hp, that would mean your dps dropped but few hunded times? no, its not dropped, these are statistically different things. why? because one is measured by success(dc casting), other is measuer by damage delivered over time.

you can take as example boss with 1 million hp.
a. how many dps delivers best dc caster? zero.
b. how many dps delivers that same caster with actual dps spells - rays, dots etc? certain amount of dps.

these are different things.
Would you say the same of melee crits when in fury or LOD then? Mobs get one shot quite a bit, even on EE when blitzing or using adrenaline. Are we discounting those mobs that are one shot because it only took one action to kill it? Are we saying that because a 10k melee crit would one shot the 50hp kobold, would also one shot the 7khp EE frost giant, that this cant be counted as DPS?

There is but one semantic difference between one shot melee critting a mob to death, and one shot FOD the mob to death - a number total over the mobs head for the crit.

If you are discounting the FOD simply due to that semantic detail, then you would also discount the number total of overkill DPS, right? If the mob has 2k HP and someone laid down a 7k melee crit, using this logic its only 2k that gets added into the DPS calc, because the other 5k "didnt matter".

Which is it? Does it count, or does it not count?

I think insta kills count, because the power of said insta kills can be quantifiably measured by te amount of HP the mobs have, because comparing that to how long it would take to saw the mob down to <0HP shows us how powerful (or not) the instakill ability is.

6. Originally Posted by Angelic-council
Hi guys, so.. I was doing some vale quests yesterday and it has come to my attention that, some people seem to really care about "kill counts".. I have seen players call another player (who is new) "a noob" and there is sometimes argument between elistists, who killed how many etc..

I really like this system, well.. Because I'm doing really good and almost always out kill everybody.
And that simply makes me feel good, but I felt little bit sorry about other people.

I mean, do we really need to know who killed how many mobs? Wouldn't it be a good idea to just remove that and make it like wild slayers. Along with death penalty, because I think there is so much pressure on players... Because of someone we have to lose the experience? I think this is wrong, why not let player him/herself lose that extra 10% and not all of us.
Just an idea guys... Game suppose to be fun after all.
What a joke. Let's make DDO PC so we can all find our happy place... <gag>
Kill count is a stat. It is JUST a stat. If you can't handle the "pressure" of competition then run with a different crowd. No one else needs your pity for being taunted as a noob.

If you want a survival bonus in each and every quest so bad then stop running with "weaklings" or get over it. Buy some XP Pots and run with those to offset it or buy an Otto's stone. Heck - do a better job of keeping them alive yourself - just stop whining about it. It is what it is.

The game doesn't provide "Fun" - you provide your own fun. Put on your big girl panties and deal with it.

7. ## depends

I always see people say something about the skill of a person to get in the last shot.....
I seriously doubt anyone is able to snipe the last shot and rack up his kill count that way.

So.... at one time I considered kill count a rough estimate of DPS.

However, DPS has progressed so much that I believe kill count now has almost nothing to do with DPS.

Now I believe it is almost entirely a count of who gets in the "FIRST" shot.
as I use mostly melees..it is easy to come in and cleave 4-8 kills aftr a Mage nukes most their hps.Mostly on some epics and heroic elite where they dont 1 shot all time

8. i lead / contend for,kill count often;but i like to thank everyone ..not every group player is geared or knowedgable enough yet to lead in kills anyways.D&D was a group game b4 computer version.Even w self heal mentality more veteran players can welcome /help newer ones.Its obvious when a low dps is a problem,but that isn't because of dam done ..it comes to cooperation alot...between all.Players can list for any type player they want,if they r goin to be picky about who joins so much.When i put up a group ,ill go fullout to save others,not leave behind any..often it leaves me behind,whatever..feels good to help

9. Originally Posted by Lallajulia
no. dps is constant supply of damage over time. dc spells or other such abilities are not dps, these abilities do damage in different manner, that can be measured by said kill count, but can not be correctly measured by dps. if your instakill kills kobold with 50hp and on other quest kill troll with 200k hp, that would mean your dps dropped by few hunded times? no, its not dropped, these are statistically different things. why? because one is measured by success(dc casting), other is measuer by damage delivered over time(interval).
Melee attacks are subject to "success" as well: you have to roll high enough or you will miss. So the dps for melee attacks is also measured by success. The main difference is that melee attacks land more frequently than DC spells. However, what difference does it fundamentally make if you hit for 10.000 damage every 10 seconds, or 1.000 damage every second? The dps is the same. And yes, for insta-kill spells the dps does drop dramatically if you kill a mob with low hp. The dps for this type of character highly depends on the health of the mob and the success rate of the spell on that mob, but it can be measured nonetheless.

You are probably interchanging the concepts of dps and efficiency, which are related but not the same. Dps is a measure of efficiency, but efficiency is a lot broader than just dps.

you can take as example boss with 1 million hp.
a. how many dps delivers best dc caster with instakill abilities? zero.
b. how many dps delivers that same caster with actual dps spells - rays, dots etc? certain amount of dps.

these are different things.
Well, you actually gave a measure here of the dps in both examples!

10. Originally Posted by Chai
If you are discounting the FOD simply due to that semantic detail, then you would also discount the number total of overkill DPS, right? If the mob has 2k HP and someone laid down a 7k melee crit, using this logic its only 2k that gets added into the DPS calc, because the other 5k "didnt matter".
If a mob with 50hp is insta-killed then 50hp of damage have been done. If the same mob is critted for 8k then 50hp of damage has been done. As insta-kills don't have a displayed damage value then anything else would skew the results if we are going to measure apples against apples. That being said, I'm sure that the stats could be broken down further to give melee dps, ranged dps, spell dps, retributive dps, environmental dps, overkill damage and any other type of dps you can shake a stick at. Why limit yourself when you can have it all?

11. Originally Posted by Forzah
Reducing the HP of the mob by 100% in an instant is the highest possible DPS there is. Even measured over longer periods of time, the DPS from insta-kills can be way higher than what can be achieved through direct melee and spell damage.
Isn't it funny then, how, with an assortment of insta-kill spells, and good DCs, I still can't make much of a dent in red-named bosses? Since, according to you, I have "way higher" DPS than all those melees and nukers.

I always see people say something about the skill of a person to get in the last shot.....
I seriously doubt anyone is able to snipe the last shot and rack up his kill count that way.
I see a lot of casters doing this with energy bursts, they almost always do energy burst when mobs are below 50% hp.

13. Originally Posted by Ryan220
My thoughts on this are does anyone who is a mature person really care about kill count?

We will all at some point be top, middle or bottom of the kill count at some point - its no big achievement or let down. Its just the way it is.

Its the sort of thing my 14 and 12 year old children would argue over. If you see it happening in game where someone is boasting or shouting someone down over kills then they are most likely youngsters or adults who should really know better.

If you are subjected to this type of abuse in game you can be sure that the rest of the group you're in is thinking that the person handing out the grief is an immature fool that quite possibly suffers from an inferiority complex
True, I think you are right. Thanks for the reply.

14. Originally Posted by SirValentine
Isn't it funny then, how, with an assortment of insta-kill spells, and good DCs, I still can't make much of a dent in red-named bosses? Since, according to you, I have "way higher" DPS than all those melees and nukers.
Hi,

I like that we have the kill count. People might be silly about it sometimes, but it can be a useful diagnostic so long as you recognise its limitations. It can help you see how you are performing relative to similar builds/roles.

There is definitely a difference between trash dps and boss dps. Thinking of them as different categories makes it easier to accommodate instakills if you want to try to include them in dps calculations.

Thanks.

15. Why do I feel those most upset about kill count are probably those who never lead it? And spare me all the posts of "NOT ME! I lead it all the time and I hate it" - just assume I didn't mean you

In general though, If you don't like it -- don't look at it. Again, some do, and you don't ever have to use it in any way -- so it doesn't hurt you to have it .. AT ALL. A lot of the guys I run with look at kill count, and beyond being one of many ways to assess your character, it is a great way to tease each other and have fun. Ie - you let a healer out kill you? Go turn in your EE SOS you don't deserve to be a mele! -- It is all in good fun and everyone involved are friends. If that is not your idea of fun, don't run with those people. But do NOT expect us to all sit around singing songs and holding hands together as we skip to the end of the quest together sharing kills. Yes the game is PVE, but some like a little healthy competition. I have had a blast trying to outkill a sorc in my guild with my druid, (so close -- but not quite yet) but we both had a blast and there was plenty of trash talk!

I also disagree with all the antiblitz talk, I am not a mele player, it is jut not my cup of tea. But aside from red names, (and even those if you are willing to drink pots) a DPS sorc will rule. Casters have always had an advantage in this game that Blitz does help to address a bit. I don't think it is OP - I think that other classes are underpowered compared to a well built and played Sorc and this has been true for a very long time. I think turbine agrees as it seems they are trying to address that balance with the latest changes to classes.

Finally, Someone (yea I am too lazy to go look and find out who) said that DDO was the worst game for playing together, yea, that is not true at all. This game makes it easy to group with an easy lfm system, channels and guilds and even provides IN GAME voice (yea not the best at times but it is there). YES, we don't NEED to group all the time (very few quests/difficuties actually require it) BUT that was not always the case, the game has had us at cap for a bit which makes us gods in lower level quests. That has been the issue. Compare this to a game like, ESO? Star Wars? Even WOW where you basically have to be on the exact same quest in the chain to get the same type of xp, even working together and sometimes have to repeat the quests multiple times for each player in the group just so they can move on??? not fun. This makes playing with your friends a pita unless you are on at the exact same time every day. DDO has an amazing grouping system, and I love the quest based running and the ability to redbox or share quests most of which you do not need to be keyed for (with some exceptions). We just need more challenging content.

Meh - sorry about the wall.

16. Originally Posted by Lallajulia
no. dps is constant supply of damage over time. dc spells or other such abilities are not dps, these abilities do damage in different manner, that can be measured by said kill count, but can not be correctly measured by dps. if your instakill kills kobold with 50hp and on other quest kill troll with 200k hp, that would mean your dps dropped by few hunrded times? no, its not dropped, these are statistically different things. why? because one is measured by success(dc casting), other is measured by damage delivered over time(interval).

you can take as example boss with 1 million hp.
a. how many dps delivers best dc caster with instakill abilities? zero.
b. how many dps delivers that same caster with actual dps spells - rays, dots etc? certain amount of dps.

these are different things.
This doesn't make sense. Melee isn't constant damage over time either. Just like with casters, melee dps is dependent on the mob's DR, fort, displacement, etc. There are ways to get around it, but casters also get around different mobs by using different spells or abilities. Also, if you can hit for 2k a hit, and in one quest you kill a weak enemy and another a strong one but each in one hit, does that make your dps less? No, it means that you killed him. I cannot imagine how someone could consider a caster DC killing and not consider that dps.

17. Originally Posted by moomooprincess
Yes, kill count matters. People love to brag. Doesn't trash talk happen in sports? Yes. If people have their feelings hurt by kill count, then don't look.
In sports, when members of the same team are trash talking each other, it is generally considered a bad thing.

18. Originally Posted by SirValentine
Isn't it funny then, how, with an assortment of insta-kill spells, and good DCs, I still can't make much of a dent in red-named bosses? Since, according to you, I have "way higher" DPS than all those melees and nukers.
I said you "can" have way higher dps. Obviously, it is very situation dependent. In case of red-named mobs it is of course not a very good idea to use spells that do nothing. So in some cases an insta-killer has the highest dps of all, and in other cases the worst of all

19. Originally Posted by Loholt-UK
I don't agree with taking the kill count out of the game. I played WoW for a few years after playing DDO, then returned to DDO. The one thing that absolutely amazed me about WoW was the amount of statistics that were made readily available to players. For example, after a raid we could analyse every member's performance individually for DPS, HPS, kills and even which mobs they were hitting at what time during the raid and a whole load more statistics. I would love even a fraction of that type of data in DDO so removing the kill count is, IMO, a step in the wrong direction.
Why? To separate those who should be playing the game from those who shouldn't?

Because, personally, I can't think of any other use for this kind of group wide information.

I know I play for fun. Not to live up to someone else's expectations when they analyze my performance after the fact.

20. Originally Posted by Gremmlynn
Why? To separate those who should be playing the game from those who shouldn't?

Because, personally, I can't think of any other use for this kind of group wide information.

I know I play for fun. Not to live up to someone else's expectations when they analyze my performance after the fact.
In WoW the information is quite entertaining and useful, especially in large raids. The competitive edge gives you an incentive to try your best, which is really what you need to ultimately make the raid a success.

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