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  1. #21
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rixaen View Post
    While I well know that some crafting systems like Green steel are beloved by the TRing population to abuse and exploit content not ever designed to have such powerful tools used in them, it does not change that they are something that just shouldnt be, and removing it completely and all GS items would do wonders to remove the gap of power between non raiders and raiders at the lvl 12+ range. Not to mention that far too many of the oldest vets still sit on complete sets of cleansed GS gear with lvl 8 min legacy items grandfathered and forever scars of one of the earliest and worst exploits that violated DDOs purity.

    Simply put there should be no items, no content, nor system that can exist in the game that lets huge power gaps develop at any lvl range. People think they couldnt do it but I think more would suck it up and stay and many more would return then would be lost if things like GS where forever cleansed from the game along with pretty much all the broken OP monty haul loot.

    A characters power should 90% come from the characters levels and nothing else. Gear should not define nor redefine ones power potential in any content beyond the basic tools of weapons to break DRs though one might then ask why even have creatures with DRs when everyone carries the tools to bypass them anyways or is at least supposed to to have a chance at victory.

    But nothing anyone can or will ever say will make me believe the constant addition of collectables and materials that has especially been on the rise since FTP is anything but a way to force players to feel like they need to buy the biggest bags from the store.

    Nor do I really expect any of the fanbois or even the haters to get what I am saying. They want to think the system as is has merit based on some personal preference or another, rather then recognize how those systems they like have contributed to DDO slowing bleeding out players more then anything else.

    As for fixxing bugs etc, not even a reasonable thing to wish for as its proven by history to simply be impossible for Turbine staff. Asking them to fix bugs is like asking them to bring about world peace.
    If you would have made this post at the end of 2007 I might have agreed with it, but one of the worst things a company can do is leave something in the game for 7 years then nerf it or remove it. Unless theres a Delorian with flaming tire tracks and 1.21 jiggawatts of power involved, this would be a poor decision.

    Besides, new random gen loot comes pretty close to GS in power. The power gap from GS that existed from 2008-2011 no longer exists.

  2. #22
    Community Member Xioden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rixaen View Post
    But nothing anyone can or will ever say will make me believe the constant addition of collectables and materials that has especially been on the rise since FTP is anything but a way to force players to feel like they need to buy the biggest bags from the store.

    Nor do I really expect any of the fanbois or even the haters to get what I am saying. They want to think the system as is has merit based on some personal preference or another, rather then recognize how those systems they like have contributed to DDO slowing bleeding out players more then anything else.

    As for fixxing bugs etc, not even a reasonable thing to wish for as its proven by history to simply be impossible for Turbine staff. Asking them to fix bugs is like asking them to bring about world peace.
    Collectible-Collectibles are a bit more of a pain, as the large bags are from planar token turn-ins or extremely rare chest drops.

    Ingredients though, so long as you have the vale of twilight pack large ingredient bags are essentially free these days once you get to level 16-17 (Elite BB runs . It's certainly more convenient to have a larger bag somewhere that can hold everything, but unless I need something specific I completely ignore the large ingredient bags until it eventually fills up. That really does not happen often.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    bug fixes
    This made me lol.

  4. #24
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rixaen View Post
    While I well know that some crafting systems like Green steel are beloved by the TRing population to abuse and exploit content not ever designed to have such powerful tools used in them, it does not change that they are something that just shouldnt be, and removing it completely and all GS items would do wonders to remove the gap of power between non raiders and raiders at the lvl 12+ range. Not to mention that far too many of the oldest vets still sit on complete sets of cleansed GS gear with lvl 8 min legacy items grandfathered and forever scars of one of the earliest and worst exploits that violated DDOs purity.
    I agree with you that GS has a too low ML in general, but that in itself is not a reason to remove crafting systems. Making GS items level 16 would be a better solution for that problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rixaen View Post
    Simply put there should be no items, no content, nor system that can exist in the game that lets huge power gaps develop at any lvl range. People think they couldnt do it but I think more would suck it up and stay and many more would return then would be lost if things like GS where forever cleansed from the game along with pretty much all the broken OP monty haul loot.
    I agree the differences shouldn't become too big. But again, this is not caused by crafting, but by allowing true reincarnation and having too strong items with too low ML.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rixaen View Post
    A characters power should 90% come from the characters levels and nothing else. Gear should not define nor redefine ones power potential in any content beyond the basic tools of weapons to break DRs though one might then ask why even have creatures with DRs when everyone carries the tools to bypass them anyways or is at least supposed to to have a chance at victory.
    Not related to crafting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rixaen View Post
    But nothing anyone can or will ever say will make me believe the constant addition of collectables and materials that has especially been on the rise since FTP is anything but a way to force players to feel like they need to buy the biggest bags from the store.
    Not necessarily. If you introduce a new crafting system with already available ingredients, then hardly anyone is going to play new content. New ingredients are a means to make people play content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rixaen View Post
    Nor do I really expect any of the fanbois or even the haters to get what I am saying. They want to think the system as is has merit based on some personal preference or another, rather then recognize how those systems they like have contributed to DDO slowing bleeding out players more then anything else.
    If anything caused the game to bleed out, it's bugs but not the crafting systems themselves. For me personally, the crafting systems have given a great replay value before U14 arrived. Green steel and epic crafting with seal/shard/scrolls have actually kept me playing actively for several years. Gathering ingredients is a pretty strong incentive to replay content, unlike getting a completed item for sure after 3 runs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rixaen View Post
    As for fixxing bugs etc, not even a reasonable thing to wish for as its proven by history to simply be impossible for Turbine staff. Asking them to fix bugs is like asking them to bring about world peace.
    There has been incompetence in this regard. The worst thing is the double login tho, that scares new players away right after they download the game...
    Last edited by Forzah; 06-27-2014 at 02:36 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  5. #25
    Community Member the_one_dwarfforged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rixaen View Post
    Simply put there should be no items, no content, nor system that can exist in the game that lets huge power gaps develop at any lvl range.
    so, this isnt really about fixing exploits then. its about your opinion.

    carry on.
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  6. #26
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunzi2010 View Post
    Um... I run these weekly to upgrade my items. and I always see heaps of people posting LOB or MA raids. even though a few have bugged out to the end when we complete.
    this raid creates your alchemical weapon... have you actually had a good look at the alchemical weapons? there is some very nice items you can craft on here.
    im still way off on my greatsword but have a good read, there are alot of people that still run this.
    check the link below.
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Alchemical_Crafting
    Only because you are on Thelanis and some people still do it.
    Weapons are nice, that is right, but for the amount of grind needed to make them, they are worthless to me, or should I say too expensive.

  7. #27
    Community Member eachna_gislin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rixaen View Post
    Alot of people around here I get the feeling think I dont want to see DDO get better, grow into the promised online D&D game so many of us dream it was.

    I do care about it though and want to see it heal and grow healthy and strong.

    Currently I feel there are 2 things that need to change they are connected though it may not seem that way.

    The first is its time to do away with ALL forms of collectables and materials and ingredients. Every single system is an abandoned one and really having them all in the game creats far too much clutter both in items and in material for new comers to figure out what to do with it. Instead use the system that more or less has proven reliable, quest completions to create a completion point system where completing say every quest in an arc will allow you to talk to the quest giver NPC and receive one named item from the arc. For rarer items like in the case of upgrades or truly valuable items like the ESOS perhaps require more runs, or even use this as a chance to make all those stats on a dungeon score card matter. Like require flawless runs with no deaths, kill all monsters, break all breakables etc to really make use of that aspect of the game beyond kill count.

    Now with the above we have both done away with tons of clutter and added a new reason to the importance of completing content. But there needs to be give as well as take. So I also suggest with this change to help combat the oft complained about issues of DCs causing party wipes and wasting tons of play time, to change XP rewarding to kills being where the majority of XP comes from and content only rewarding marginal amounts. With the lions share of kill XP coming from the kill of the quest boss itself.

    I feel that with these changes we create a real desire to still complete content, and lots of it by needing to play through entire arcs rather then farming a specific quest in an arc, while combating the frustration especially keenly felt by new players when a lag spike or dc can cause especially for the oft times soloing slow going new comer trying to get a feel for the game.

    I also dont see these changes really requiring huge amounts of man power, since systems to track things like raid completions and sagas clearly currently exists in the game, as does the ability to reward XP based on kills when one considers slayer zones. I think that such changes would be worthwhile efforts on the part of the devs, and even be changes that might attract back lost players to check them out in curiosity.
    So, almost a year ago they broke everyone's raid completions during a minor downtime/code update. They split raid completions out into epic and heroic, even for raids that don't have a heroic version. This resulted in pretty much everyone losing credit for completed raids. Then, as part of fixing that mess, they broke everyone's raid completions _again_. Finally, they stabilized the numbers, pretty much everyone was screwed over but at least they stopped messing with it. The stated intention behind that fiasco? That, in the future, they *might* want to give people epic raid items in their completion lists. Instead of making any progress on that, they spent the next year releasing more items with ingredient systems (hello skill augments, Commendations of Valor, and Thunderforged crafting).

    Don't expect them to re-visit the idea. The management overseeing the development team is constitutionally incapable of revisiting old systems and fixing them up. All they can do is try to "look busy" and send their teams off to break a few more things.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rixaen View Post
    While I well know that some crafting systems like Green steel are beloved by the TRing population to abuse and exploit content not ever designed to have such powerful tools used in them, it does not change that they are something that just shouldnt be, and removing it completely and all GS items would do wonders to remove the gap of power between non raiders and raiders at the lvl 12+ range. Not to mention that far too many of the oldest vets still sit on complete sets of cleansed GS gear with lvl 8 min legacy items grandfathered and forever scars of one of the earliest and worst exploits that violated DDOs purity.
    Power gap is fine, especially since quests do not require that extra GS power to complete. Crafting various GS items is a tremendous undertaking (not getting into duping, in no way should exploit fixing go to the detriment of non exploiting players) and should be rewarded accordingly. If you cannot even manage to finish shroud raids, well...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rixaen View Post
    Simply put there should be no items, no content, nor system that can exist in the game that lets huge power gaps develop at any lvl range. People think they couldnt do it but I think more would suck it up and stay and many more would return then would be lost if things like GS where forever cleansed from the game along with pretty much all the broken OP monty haul loot.
    says you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rixaen View Post
    A characters power should 90% come from the characters levels and nothing else. Gear should not define nor redefine ones power potential in any content beyond the basic tools of weapons to break DRs though one might then ask why even have creatures with DRs when everyone carries the tools to bypass them anyways or is at least supposed to to have a chance at victory.
    says you

    Quote Originally Posted by Rixaen View Post
    But nothing anyone can or will ever say will make me believe the constant addition of collectables and materials that has especially been on the rise since FTP is anything but a way to force players to feel like they need to buy the biggest bags from the store.
    I didn´t mind paying such a meagre amount of money. But the sheer number of (mostly abandoned) crafting systems and ingredients is ridiculous and confusing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rixaen View Post
    Nor do I really expect any of the fanbois or even the haters to get what I am saying. They want to think the system as is has merit based on some personal preference or another, rather then recognize how those systems they like have contributed to DDO slowing bleeding out players more then anything else.
    Using such childish non-concepts like "fanboi" or "hater" takes you pretty much out of any adult discussion, sorry.

  9. #29
    Community Member painkiller3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rixaen View Post
    ... would do wonders to remove the gap of power between non raiders and raiders at the lvl 12+ range....
    i'm unclear on what your point is. you don't think there should be any benefit for people who grind raid items? people who solo should be as powerful as people who spend months raiding and crafting items?

  10. #30
    Community Member Minrothad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rixaen View Post
    there should be no items, no content, nor system that can exist in the game that lets huge power gaps develop at any lvl range. People think they couldnt do it but I think more would suck it up and stay and many more would return then would be lost if things like GS where forever cleansed from the game along with pretty much all the broken OP monty haul loot.

    A characters power should 90% come from the characters levels and nothing else. Gear should not define nor redefine ones power potential in any content beyond the basic tools of weapons to break DRs though one might then ask why even have creatures with DRs when everyone carries the tools to bypass them anyways or is at least supposed to to have a chance at victory.

    I don't think you quite understand how these games work.

  11. #31
    Community Member Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rixaen View Post
    removing all GS items would do wonders to remove the gap of power between non raiders and raiders at the lvl 12+ range. Not to mention that far too many of the oldest vets still sit on complete sets of cleansed GS gear with lvl 8 min legacy items grandfathered and forever scars of one of the earliest and worst exploits that violated DDOs purity.
    Not gonna happen... At ALL. EVER.
    On G-Land : Flavilandile, Blacklock, Yaelle, Millishande, Larilandile, Gildalinde, Tenalafel, and many other...

  12. #32
    Community Member Miow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qweeve View Post
    This made me lol.
    Exactly maybe they are just incapable of fixing bugs properly ever consider that one folks?

  13. #33
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    very few games have intricate crafting systems like ddo, heck the only game i can think of off the top of my head that has anywhere near the crafting as ddo is runescape (lol?) and even that is much less complex. to remove a system that has been ingrained into the very heart of ddo, would be the worst decision they have ever made, if they did that i would play another mmo entirely as there are ones that are more aesthetically appealing than ddo, but doesn't have depth and the billion ways i can make something fun. heck the sense of accomplishment i had after i made my first gs cloak (which i haven't worn in ages, but still have) is what made me want to get more to make my tr's that much more awesome when i reached that level. now i do 2 and half day tr's and i only use one piece of my gs equipment (the new cloak: conc op) all my other gear is raid loot, deadly or resist, and some other named wep or if caster random thaumaturgy, heck gs doesnt even add that much power anymore compared to what it was, and cannith crafting is just for filling in slots for me, i never did make a dragon-touched item, nor an alchemical, nor a t3 thunderforged (i can make one i just don't sit at cap for longer than it takes to run to a reincarnation trainer)
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  14. #34
    Community Member zachxr100's Avatar
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    also besides dr breaking there is a lot of gear besides gs that are plenty strong
    for example i use my theurgic stave from lvl 8 to 20 on staff builds (which i do a lot)
    for bows i use silver longbow till 14 then use unwavering ardency/ bow of sinew

    gs is not needed at all, its nice but not needed

    even in pnp 90% of your power doesn't come from build (except some casters).
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  15. #35
    Community Member Lagin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    Obviously the best thing to do after a topix is closed is to start a new one in the same subject and for the same small vocal group to rehash the same argument 30 more times
    My thoughts exactly. *That being said*........



  16. #36
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rixaen View Post
    While I well know that some crafting systems like Green steel are beloved by the TRing population to abuse and exploit content not ever designed to have such powerful tools used in them, it does not change that they are something that just shouldnt be, and removing it completely and all GS items would do wonders to remove the gap of power between non raiders and raiders at the lvl 12+ range. Not to mention that far too many of the oldest vets still sit on complete sets of cleansed GS gear with lvl 8 min legacy items grandfathered and forever scars of one of the earliest and worst exploits that violated DDOs purity.
    Are you saying that people exploited to dupe Shroud ingredients when they were still ML8? Or that simply being ML8 was an exploit because they were later made ML11/12? I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rixaen View Post
    and removing it completely and all GS items would do wonders to remove the gap of power between non raiders and raiders at the lvl 12+ range.
    Also, why do you think that the part in red is desirable? It seems entirely reasonable for raiders to have more power than non-raiders. Especially since raiding isn't at all hard in DDO.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
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  17. #37
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    Turbine will likely do what they normally do. Introduce another new system with new ingredients. Not sure there's a way to fix what's already happened.

    Maybe they could create the next weapon system so it doesn't involve ingredients. Just have standard BTC raid loot that drops in the chests with 20th lists. Maybe tie upgrades to favor like they did with the CiTW weapons, except don't require an ingredient to upgrade. Just favor. Or go with a seal/shard/scroll like system but make them all BTA so they can't be duped and sold. That might be the best approach, make future systems undupable. I'm not optimistic that they'll ever be able to fix duping completely. And it's really dissapointing... and I had a sad realization lately. I had no idea how widespread duping was until I mentioned I reported a duper on the forums and got flamed for it by nearly everyone. It was a big eye opener, I thought duping involved the minority of players not the majority. Still getting nasty PMs.
    Last edited by axel15810; 06-27-2014 at 09:17 AM.

  18. #38
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Also, why do you think that the part in red is desirable? It seems entirely reasonable for raiders to have more power than non-raiders. Especially since raiding isn't at all hard in DDO.
    Apparently, he finds the gear difference between TRs and first-lifers too big. There is of course a significant advantage for TRs, which, to some extent, separates the playerbase in two kinds of players in terms of power. Then again, this has little to do with raiding, but more with allowing TRs to keep their gear after reincarnating. Whether or not this is desirable is difficult to measure and has probably been debated thoroughly years ago .
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  19. #39
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Maybe Turbine can make a new "currency" called DKP where you can cash in those at a Raid Vendor to buy raid weapons for DKP. That would be a new and innovative solution that could eliminate ingredients.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
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  20. #40
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    No need to rehash a closed thread, but thank you for the feedback.
    Have fun, and don't forget to gather for buffs!
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