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  1. #141
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Lag is not a bug.
    Non-synchronous updating of items is.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Non-transactional updating of items is.
    ftfy...
    The newest computer can merely compound, at speed, the oldest problem in the relations between human beings, and in the end the communicator will be confronted with the old problem, of what to say and how to say it. - Edward R. Murrow (1964)

  3. #143
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    The thread is not about the game being "negatively impacted", it is about a very specific subject: duping. Therefore yes, you are derailing it. The OP has even stated that you have derailed it: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5366996

    But apparently you don't have the courtesy to respect the OP.
    Both claims are false. My posts are on topic.

    The thread is about how to avoid the negative impact caused by duping through providing services using different mechanisms which cannot be exploited.

    again, the only reason you continue to make such accusations, is due to lack of refutation of on topic example provided.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #144

  5. #145
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Lag is not a bug.
    Lag is not a bug (although some bugs are the source of some lag).

    The interactions between the server and the client that allow duping in some circumstances (which may or may not involve lag, because I don't want to give any details on how to exploit on the forums) certainly is a bug. Unless you somehow think that duping is WAI.
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  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Lag is not a bug (although some bugs are the source of some lag).

    The interactions between the server and the client that allow duping in some circumstances (which may or may not involve lag, because I don't want to give any details on how to exploit on the forums) certainly is a bug. Unless you somehow think that duping is WAI.
    Yes, duping is a result of normal game code. Therefore it is not a bug. Just like exploiting certain AI isn't a bug. The AI is WAI - it is the cheater who is abusing the code.

  7. #147
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    No, its not.
    It certainly is, as a bug is defined as software code not working as intended. Are you contending that non-synchronous updating of same in game entities is intended?
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    And I'll give you the same answer I gave Chai: this thread is about duping, not bugs. If you want to discuss bugs, please open a thread about that and I will be happy to respond and agree with you.
    Except that duping is made possible by bugs, so they are directly connected. Duping is a symptom of the real problem, and ignoring the underlying cause(s) of that symptom will not fix it. Eliminate the causal bugs, and duping will end.
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  9. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Except that duping is made possible by bugs...
    And locks only keep out honest people.
    The newest computer can merely compound, at speed, the oldest problem in the relations between human beings, and in the end the communicator will be confronted with the old problem, of what to say and how to say it. - Edward R. Murrow (1964)

  10. #150
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Lag is not a bug.
    Disconnecting your net cable is not a bug.

    Actively seeking ways to dupe items via game bugs is an exploit, the bug that leads to the exploit and the exploit should both be fixed.

    Those that do both should actively removed from the game forever - enough is enough.

    They know who they are, more then likely Turbine knows and for sure they are reading what they post, so what is the GD hold up?

    Are these types of players so "vital" and the harm they are doing not worth the effort to remove?

    Should the rest of us just give up any hope and just move on?

    Should we not care anymore about DDO and let these rats ruin the rest of the game and go down with the ship?



    Come on Turbine tell us something, one way or the other so the honest players can pack up and find something else without these people.

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  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by sebastianosmith View Post
    And locks only keep out honest people.
    That type of honesty is a construct.

    Locking the front door to keep out honest people doesn't do much good when the coons climb in your open kitchen window and raid the larder.
    Last edited by Tscheuss; 06-25-2014 at 03:31 PM.
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  12. #152
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Non-synchronous updating of items is.
    Lag, client/server interruptions, various confusions between client and server, etc. are all normal things that should be expected. It should not be a surprise to Turbine or anyone else that lag, disconnections, etc. can and do happen. Because those kinds of things are normal and expected, it is critical to have some kind of appropriate method do avoid accidental item deletions and "accidental" item duplications. Any failure in that area is either a bug or a really badly designed WAI.
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  13. #153
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Yes, duping is a result of normal game code. Therefore it is not a bug. Just like exploiting certain AI isn't a bug. The AI is WAI - it is the cheater who is abusing the code.
    Oh my goodness.

    That's an impressive perspective there, HAL.
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  14. #154
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Lag, client/server interruptions, various confusions between client and server, etc. are all normal things that should be expected. It should not be a surprise to Turbine or anyone else that lag, disconnections, etc. can and do happen. Because those kinds of things are normal and expected, it is critical to have some kind of appropriate method do avoid accidental item deletions and "accidental" item duplications. Any failure in that area is either a bug or a really badly designed WAI.
    Non-synchronous updating of same entities, and lag, are not the same thing.

    The main reason why I havent basically taught class on this, is because Id have to talk about things Turbine doesnt want discussed. I have dealt with it in other games though, and can say through experience that when the cause of the non-synchronous same entity updating is fixed, so were the unintended consequences of that issue.
    Last edited by Chai; 06-25-2014 at 03:44 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #155
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Lag is not a bug.
    what does lag have to with duping? need to stay on topic please.

  16. #156
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Non-synchronous updating of same entities, and lag, are not the same thing.

    The main reason why I havent basically taught class on this, is because Id have to talk about things Turbine doesnt want discussed.
    Broadly, I think we don't disagree on this issue. I'm just saying that there are a lot of ways for this problem to crop up and there are a lot of things that Turbine can do to address the issue and they can either build a dike that doesn't leak or they can plug the leaks in a badly designed dike, but they have to do either one or the other (or both).

    And at this point in DDO, I don't think there is anything that Turbine can really do to effectively address the situation with the amount of resources that they're willing to devote to the problem. Even the half assed bandaids that they've put in like the opening-an-interface-closes-all-other-interfaces horribleness didn't stop the duping. When they're reaching for bandaids that are THAT [redacted for forum guidelines] and they STILL don't stop the duping, I think maybe it's time to just give up and scrap all ingredient-based items and simply drop full items in all quests.

    There has never been any serious problem with duping full items - the only serious problem has always been duplicating ingredient type things.


    And if any Turbine developer has a thick enough skin and is willing to brave the wilds of the "other place", I'm sure that they'll get some interesting ideas of how to solve the problems. Want to stop counterfeiting? Call in Frank Abignale.
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  17. #157
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    what does lag have to with duping? need to stay on topic please.
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  18. #158
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    Default ????????????????

    Why has this thread been allowed to continue?
    So many other topics get cut short that are far less deserving... Bewildering
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  19. #159
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Broadly, I think we don't disagree on this issue. I'm just saying that there are a lot of ways for this problem to crop up and there are a lot of things that Turbine can do to address the issue and they can either build a dike that doesn't leak or they can plug the leaks in a badly designed dike, but they have to do either one or the other (or both).

    And at this point in DDO, I don't think there is anything that Turbine can really do to effectively address the situation with the amount of resources that they're willing to devote to the problem. Even the half assed bandaids that they've put in like the opening-an-interface-closes-all-other-interfaces horribleness didn't stop the duping. When they're reaching for bandaids that are THAT [redacted for forum guidelines] and they STILL don't stop the duping, I think maybe it's time to just give up and scrap all ingredient-based items and simply drop full items in all quests.

    There has never been any serious problem with duping full items - the only serious problem has always been duplicating ingredient type things.


    And if any Turbine developer has a thick enough skin and is willing to brave the wilds of the "other place", I'm sure that they'll get some interesting ideas of how to solve the problems. Want to stop counterfeiting? Call in Frank Abignale.
    Yes.

    What you (and the OP) are suggesting are work arounds, but they would address the issue.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #160
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    "Having a negative impact" and "cheating" are not even remotely in the same ballpark. There are lots of things that "have a negative impact" on DDO like people talking nasty in chat. I would say that elitist players coming down on newer players in groups has a greater negative impact than P2W. But nothing is going to have as great an impact on DDO as the cheaters who are taking income directly from the game as well as ruining the economy for the other players. Taking income = removing resources to make the game better or even allow it to continue running at all.

    You may not like P2W but it has several good points: income for the game and making some players happy in a legitimate way. Duping makes some players happy at the expense of the entire game: both the developers and the players.

    And on top of it all, you are attempting to derail this thread which is about duping. Derailing a thread is against community guidelines...
    How are you sure that people that are duping would ever spend on the game anyway?

    One last question. If Turbine got rid of all exploits (and they never returned), would they have so much extra money that we would see quality of life fixes? Would we get GM support 24/7? Would we have less lag and see the number of bugs reduced? I did not think so.

    The best advice I can give you is to not worry what others are doing. The game is not going to get any better if they are banned or not. Hell, it might get worse if there are that many and they spend.
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