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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Perfect!

  2. #22
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    What is your into score? Did you take epic spell focus necro?
    74 with Yugo, ship and Int + Int+ Echoes twist. No 6 tome or Litany.
    And yes Epic SF Necro and Epic Int x 2.

    Just read that you got Ruin, but since we are talking max "practical" DCs here ... so 73 with Litany and 6 tome, 74 completionist ?
    That's in Magister. Of course most the time I would want Necro twisted and be in Draconic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Just to give a side by side comparison I have included the Wizard calcs:



    So currently the comparison looks like this when controlled for similar conditions (No completionist, epic completionist, or store pots/cookies/House D)

    Cleric Calcs derived from SirValentine's excellent write up on Divine DC casting

    Necro: Wizard=72 --- Sorc=71 --- Bard=73 --- Cleric=72
    Enchant: Wizard=73 --- Sorc=73 --- Bard=78 --- Cleric=71
    Evocation: Wizard=74 --- Sorc=76 --- Bard=80 --- Cleric=75
    Conjuration: Wizard=74 --- Sorc=76 --- Bard=79 --- Cleric=75

    Due to feats it is easiest for the wizard to hit these DC's, but if you really focused on them Bard and Sorc can outclass a wizard's DC's.
    Wow that is very interesting, going to bookmark this page for my next few DC based characters.

    Currently when playing my pale master I try to max necro first then enchant. If you did the same thing how high would your end DCs be?

    So I'm assuming the bard's necro dc is at 73, what would the enchant be with that build?

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wipey View Post
    74 with Yugo, ship and Int + Int+ Echoes twist. No 6 tome or Litany.
    And yes Epic SF Necro and Epic Int x 2.

    Just read that you got Ruin, but since we are talking max "practical" DCs here ... so 73 with Litany and 6 tome, 74 completionist ?
    That's in Magister. Of course most the time I would want Necro twisted and be in Draconic.
    That makes sense. I was grabing the DC's from my build not the max ones (bad Ash).

    Either way, max DC's are really not that interesting as it doesn't conform to real builds in anyway. I'm going to try and model some real builds for Bard and Sorc and using my Pale Master and SirValentine's Cleric as the Wizard/Divine entries.. I will use Necro/Enchant/Evocation as the prioritized order.

    I should have the mock-ups done in an hour or Two
    Last edited by Andoris; 07-22-2014 at 11:58 PM.

  5. #25
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    Default DC Sorc Mock-up

    This is built to be something that people would actually play. It is possible to push the enchant DC's up by 3 more by swaping around feats, but it isn't a build that I think anyone would actually play (and it would be pretty gimp).

    Let me know if you see something I missed.

    -------------------
    Race:
    Drow (Completionist + Epic Completionist +3 Sorc PLs)

    Cha: 74 -- (20 base +7 level ups +6 tome +2 completionist +1 litany +1 GoTIB +6 Enh +2 capstone +1 Epic Cha +11 Item +3 insight +2 Angelic Presence +6 Destiny +2 Twist +2 ship +2 yugo)

    Feats:
    Base: Maximize Spell (1), Completionist (3), PL: Wizard (6), SF: Necro (9), GSF: Necro (12), Heighten Spell (15), Quicken Spell (18), Epic SF: Necro (21), Great Charisma (24), Ruin (27)

    Destiny: epic SP: Force or Electric (26), epic SP: Fire (28)

    Sorcerer: Fire Savant (41 ap): Core line VI (6ap), Burning Hands III (3ap), Scorch III (3), Fire Spell Crit IV (8ap), Pierce Fire Resistance III (6), Charisma II (4), Efficient Quicken I (2), Fireball SLA III (3), Awaken Weakness (2), Heat Death (2), Evocation Focus (2)

    Sorcerer: Air Savant (30 ap): Core Line IV (4ap), Electric Spell Crit III (6), Shocking Grasp III (3), Pierce Electric III (6), Cha II (4), Electric Loop III (3),

    Drow (9 ap): Spell Resistance II (2ap), Charisma II (4ap), Enchantment Lore III (3ap)

    Spell DCs:

    Necromancy – 71 (10 base +9 Spell Level +32 Cha +1 Wiz PL +2 feats +6 Item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +3 Magister +3 trans magic +1 guild)

    Enchantment – 63 (10 base +9 Spell Level +32 Cha +1 Wiz PL +1 Enchant Lore +5 Item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +3 trans magic +1 guild)

    Evocation 66 (10 base +9 Spell Level +32 Cha +1 Wiz PL +3 Sorc PL +1 Fire Savant +5 Item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +3 trans magic +1 guild)

    Epic Destinies: Exalted Angel

    Charisma VI (12), Radiant Power II (2), Healing Power II (2), Endless Faith II (2), Soundburst III (3), Purity of Essence II (2), Leap of Faith (1),
    Twists: Draconic: Energy Burst (4), Fatesinger: Echo’s of the Draconic Incarnation (3), Magister: Necromancy Specialist (2), Divine Crusader: Charisma (1)
    Last edited by Andoris; 06-24-2014 at 08:55 PM.

  6. #26
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    Default DC Bard Mock-up

    I know that Bard's will typically go Enchant primary over Necro, but to keep it consistent with the other builds I kept the order Necro/Enchant/Evo.

    I dropped Ruin on the Bard to keep the feats even (Bard will take Inspire Excellence), but if you feel that is unfair feel free to drop Necro DC's down by 1.

    ----------------
    Race: Drow (Completionist + Epic Completionist +3 Sorc PLs)

    Cha: 78 -- (20 base +7 level ups +6 tome +2 completionist +1 litany +1 GoTIB +6 Enh +4 capstone +1 Epic Cha +11 Item +3 insight +2 Angelic Presence +6 Destiny +2 Twist +2 ship +2 yugo +2 song)

    Feats:
    Base: Maximize Spell (1), Completionist (3), PL: Wizard (6), SF: Necro (9), GSF: Necro (12), Heighten Spell (15), Quicken Spell (18), Epic SF: Necro (21), Great Charisma (24), Inspire Excellence (27)

    Destiny: epic SP: Force or [Element] (26), epic SP: Positive (28)

    Bard: Spell Singer (41 ap): Core line VI (6ap), Magical Studies III (3), Haunted Melody III (3), Marigold Crown Enchantment (2), Enthrallment (2), Spellsong Trance (2), Charisma II (4), Some Ability - TBD (3), Song of Arcane Might (2), Some other Ability – TBD (5), Song of Capering (2), Prodigy III (3), Mass Hold SLA (2), Some More abilities (4)

    Bard: Warchanter or Swashbuckler (30 ap): Stuff (26 ap), Cha II (4)

    Drow (9 ap): Spell Resistance II (2ap), Charisma II (4ap), Enchantment Lore III (3ap)

    Spell DCs:

    Necromancy – 75 (10 base +6 Spell Level +4 SS cores +34 Cha +1 Wiz PL +2 feats +6 Item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +3 Magister +3 trans magic +1 guild +1 Spell Song Vigor [morale])

    Enchantment – 72 (10 base +6 Spell Level +4 SS cores +34 Cha +1 Wiz PL +1 Enchant Lore +5 Item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +3 trans magic +1 guild +1 Spell Song Vigor [morale] +2 Prodigy)

    Evocation 73 (10 base +6 Spell Level +4 SS cores +34 Cha +1 Wiz PL +3 Sorc PL +1 Marigold crown +5 Item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +3 trans magic +1 guild +1 Spell Song Vigor [morale])

    Epic Destinies: Exalted Angel

    Charisma VI (12), Radiant Power II (2), Healing Power II (2), Endless Faith II (2), Soundburst III (3), Purity of Essence II (2), Leap of Faith (1),
    Twists: Draconic: Energy Burst (4), Fatesinger: Echo’s of the Draconic Incarnation (3), Magister: Necromancy Specialist (2), Divine Crusader: Charisma (1)
    Last edited by Andoris; 06-25-2014 at 11:17 AM.

  7. #27
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    Default Comparison - Wizard/Cleric/Sorc/Bard

    Here is the breakdowns of DC based Wizard, Cleric, Sorc and Bard. The mock-ups or links to the builds can be found 3 posts up.

    This is not max DC, but rather realistic DCs that you could see in game. DC calculations assume +6 tome, completionist, and epic completionist for all builds and the Spell School order was Necromancy first, Enchantment second, Evocation third priority.

    Here are the results (please let me know if I screwed up the math somewhere):


    Wizard Sorcerer Bard Cleric
    Necromancy DC 73 71 75 73
    Enchantment DC 67 63 72 NA
    Evocation DC 66 66 73 70

    I think it is fair to say that the Bard DC's are a little high. The only thing keeping them in check is that their spell list is pretty weak, otherwise they dominate in all categories.



    Updated: Wizard Enchant DC was off by one (too few) and Wizard Evo DC was too high .. don't worry I fired my calculator and updated the post -- sorry
    Last edited by Andoris; 07-02-2014 at 04:47 PM.

  8. #28
    Community Member N-0cturn's Avatar
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    The difference in the enchantment DC and Evocation DC for Bards cannot be correct. Enchantment has Prodigy + Enchantment lore for a +3 bonus and Evocation Marigold crown (if you say Enchantment is 2. Priority after necro, why not put this to enchantment?) and Past lifes for a total of +4 ---> There should be only 1 point difference between the two schools.

    Anyway. Besides the very limited spell selection of bards they also have less Spell Points. They hardly "dominate in all categories".

    Do you honestly think these DCs will have any negative impact on the game? Will anyone build a Necro bard, without Enervation, Energy Drain, FoD and Circle of Death and Symbol of Death?
    It's the same for Evocation. With Soundburst and the new Shout spells an Evocation specced bard would actually be possible, however it would be an entirely different experience from an Evocation specced Sorc.

    On the other hand Bards that specialize in it will be the best enchantment specialists. As it should be as far as I am concerned.

    Number crunching aside, the changes will probably not lead people to re-roll their wiz/sorc into bards.
    Last edited by N-0cturn; 06-25-2014 at 06:48 AM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by N-0cturn View Post
    The difference in the enchantment DC and Evocation DC for Bards cannot be correct. Enchantment has Prodigy + Enchantment lore for a +3 bonus and Evocation Marigold crown (if you say Enchantment is 2. Priority after necro, why not put this to enchantment?) and Past lifes for a total of +4 ---> There should be only 1 point difference between the two schools.
    No matter how many times I add things up, there always seems to be a error somewhere (that's why I show the breakdown).

    Good catch, when punching the numbers into a calculator I must have missed a +3 somewhere. I have updated the posts to show the correct number (Enchantment should be 72)

    Anyway. Besides the very limited spell selection of bards they also have less Spell Points. They hardly "dominate in all categories".
    Spell points are hardly the limiting factor they once were. There are many abilities to regenerate SP or give temp SP (not to mention the market is flooded with pots atm).

    Do you honestly think these DCs will have any negative impact on the game? Will anyone build a Necro bard, without Enervation, Energy Drain, FoD and Circle of Death and Symbol of Death?
    It's the same for Evocation. With Soundburst and the new Shout spells an Evocation specced bard would actually be possible, however it would be an entirely different experience from an Evocation specced Sorc.
    Completely agree, which is why I am not calling in a lynch mob . The poor spell selection is a limiting factor. However, with DC's this high bards don't even need to focus on DCs to ensure no-fail CC (and they are looking to add mass hold monster to the spell list, so it is a bigger deal).

    So lets say we build a bard that is spellsinger/swashbuckler, and due to the added focus in swashbuckler we drop the current 72 enchant to somewhere in the mid 60's (about where Wizard's DC's are), now Mass Hold or Soundburst + Coup de Grace + IPS or Cleave and you have instakill potential that Necro Wizards/Cleric's could only dream of. You are clearing rooms every 12 seconds. When that is on timer you can kick off a Wail to take care of the remaining mobs.

    I am all for Bard's getting a serious buff, but I wonder if this is going a little too far. Honestly, I crunched the numbers mostly so people could realize where the DC's are sitting at these days -- if the devs are okay with this much DC inflation, okay; but I do think they should at least be aware of what they are doing.


    On the other hand Bards that specialize in it will be the best enchantment specialists. As it should be as far as I am concerned.

    Number crunching aside, the changes will probably not lead people to re-roll their wiz/sorc into bards.
    Agreed, most folks are not going to re-roll their DC caster into a Bard, because the spell selection is very limited. There are also other advantages gained from Wizard/Sorc/Cleric; however, I do think that giving a hybrid class higher DC's than those classes that specialize in that type of casting, is a bad idea.

    I would hate for new content to start being scaled with the crazy high Bard DC's in mind.

    As always, ymmv.
    Last edited by Andoris; 07-23-2014 at 12:00 AM.

  10. #30
    Community Member N-0cturn's Avatar
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    They only would have higher DC if they'd give up being a hybrid.

    This was kinda the biggest issue before. To get working DCs you would have to give up melee, which left you with a char that could CC with spell and heal very well, but not harm a fly (or coyle).

    Now things changed a bit with access to Cha to damage in the swashbuckler tree, but you would still need to invest several feats to really be a hybrid character.

    It's messed up. They could have given Spellsinger either a spell DPS option or enough DC increase to make hybrid builds possible. And they seem to have done both.

    Is is to much? I honestly don't know because I cannot really tell how good the spell DPS will be.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Here is the breakdowns of DC based Wizard, Cleric, Sorc and Bard. The mock-ups or links to the builds can be found 3 posts up.

    This is not max DC, but rather realistic DCs that you could see in game. DC calculations assume +6 tome, completionist, and epic completionist for all builds and the Spell School order was Necromancy first, Enchantment second, Evocation third priority.

    Here are the results (please let me know if I screwed up the math somewhere):


    Wizard Sorcerer Bard Cleric
    Necromancy DC 73 71 75 73
    Enchantment DC 66 63 72 NA
    Evocation DC 67 66 73 70

    I think it is fair to say that the Bard DC's are a little high. The only thing keeping them in check is that their spell list is pretty weak, otherwise they dominate in all categories.
    The wizard numbers seem off. Don't know why you didn't take the PM capstone for one and this:
    Enchantment – 63 (10 base +9 Spell Level +32 Cha +1 Wiz PL +1 Enchant Lore +5 Item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +3 trans magic +1 guild)
    line is suspect. 12 from gear/feats on the sorc, so why isn't the wiz:

    Enchantment – 71 (10 base +9 Spell Level +34 Int +1 Wiz PL +1 Enchant Lore +5 Item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +3 trans magic +1 guild +1 PL bard +1 SF: enchant +1 GSF enchant)

    Haven't checked the other wizzy ones, but enchant seems off.
    Last edited by Ayseifn; 07-02-2014 at 03:38 PM.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayseifn View Post
    The wizard numbers seem off. Don't know why you didn't take the PM capstone for one and this:

    line is suspect. 12 from gear/feats on the sorc, so why isn't the wiz:

    Enchantment – 71 (10 base +9 Spell Level +34 Int +1 Wiz PL +1 Enchant Lore +5 Item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +3 trans magic +1 guild +1 PL bard +1 SF: enchant +1 GSF enchant)

    Haven't checked the other wizzy ones, but enchant seems off.
    The numbers in the table are not max DC's. Instead they are representative of what you would see on an actual build. I had posted real examples of DC Cleric's (Budstein) and Wizard (Asharam) and used numbers from those builds. For Sorc and Bard I did mock-up builds to compare. If you want details on the individual builds you can click the links that are the column headers in that table and it will take you the representative build that was used.

    As for your breakdown, the Wizard build used (linked here) has a 76 Int (which is why I used a 33 mod). Transcendental Magic (Trans Magic), doesn't apply to Wizard DC's because it is an Exalted Angel Core ability, and Exalted Angel is a poor choice of destiny for a Wizard and would result in an overall DC loss.

    The actual breakdown for Enchant in that build should be:

    Enchantment: 67 (10 base + 9 spell level + 33 int mod + 1 spell focus + 1 greater focus + 1 wiz past life + 1 bard past life + 1 enchantment lore + 5 item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment (exceptional) +1 Guild)

    So it looks like I was off by one in my reference build and the table (both are corrected now).

    Thank you for getting me to re-run the math and find the error. I have updated the posts to reflect the 67 Enchant DC



    P.S. I checked the other Wizard values as well and it looks like Evocation should be only 64 (vs. 65 that is listed); Necro checked out as correct though.. here are the breakdowns for reference:

    Evocation: 66 (10 base + 9 spell level + 33 int mod +1 wiz past life +3 Sorc PL + 5 item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +1 Guild )
    Necromancy: 73 (10 base + 9 spell level + 33 int mod + 1 spell focus + 1 greater focus +1 Epic Focus + 1 wiz past life +1 Lich +1 Necro focus +1 Archmage +3 Magister + 6 item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +1 Guild)
    Last edited by Andoris; 07-02-2014 at 04:48 PM.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Fatesinger: Increase of 6.5 DC for enchantment (4.5 for everything else)
    Cha = 9 (+6 Cha up the right side + 1 glitter of fame + 1 Echos (Draconic) + 1 Echos (Divine))
    FYI, I tested Echoes in-game. It's a stance, and turning on one Echoes stance turned the other off for me. So that lowers the potential Cha from Fatesinger by 1.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    FYI, I tested Echoes in-game. It's a stance, and turning on one Echoes stance turned the other off for me. So that lowers the potential Cha from Fatesinger by 1.
    Thanks for testing.. updating calculations now

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Race:[/B] Drow (Completionist + Epic Completionist +3 Sorc PLs)

    Cha: 74 -- (20 base +7 level ups +6 tome +2 completionist +1 litany +1 GoTIB +6 Enh +2 capstone +1 Epic Cha +11 Item +3 insight +2 Angelic Presence +6 Destiny +2 Twist +2 ship +2 yugo)

    I am trying to use this to figure out what the max CHA is for my human sorc is, and I have a few questions:

    1) What is GoTIB?
    2) With Epic Completionist, you get 4 twists. I see +2 CHA twist, Angelic Presence, but what is the 4th twist?
    3) It seems that my sorc would be 5 CHA below max right now (2 base because 18 racial max, 1 racial enhancement and I do not and probably will never have Completionist). Am I missing anything else racially? I know that I can make up 3 CHA intermittently with action boosts however.
    4) Why only 1 Epic CHA? I would most likely have 1 Epic Spell Focus and 2 Epic CHA feats.

    Thanks for any/all help
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Here is the breakdowns of DC based Wizard, Cleric, Sorc and Bard. The mock-ups or links to the builds can be found 3 posts up.

    This is not max DC, but rather realistic DCs that you could see in game. DC calculations assume +6 tome, completionist, and epic completionist for all builds and the Spell School order was Necromancy first, Enchantment second, Evocation third priority.

    Here are the results (please let me know if I screwed up the math somewhere):


    Wizard Sorcerer Bard Cleric
    Necromancy DC 73 71 75 73
    Enchantment DC 67 63 72 NA
    Evocation DC 66 66 73 70

    I think it is fair to say that the Bard DC's are a little high. The only thing keeping them in check is that their spell list is pretty weak, otherwise they dominate in all categories.



    Updated: Wizard Enchant DC was off by one (too few) and Wizard Evo DC was too high .. don't worry I fired my calculator and updated the post -- sorry
    Setting aside the limited pool of spells, I don't know whether to laugh or cry about the idea of Bards dominating DC casting. (Judging from what I have heard from other players, I don't have much company in this respect.)
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  17. #37
    Community Member Alternative's Avatar
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    No one seems to be mentioning that enchant/evoc doesn't have to be nearly as high as necro due to reflex/will saves being considerably lower across the board. A sorc specced in Necro with the rest of DCs depening on the high cha and focus items is very much viable.

    As for the bards, the limited selection of spells makes them kinda meh imo, but to each his own.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trillea View Post
    I am trying to use this to figure out what the max CHA is for my human sorc is, and I have a few questions:

    1) What is GoTIB?
    2) With Epic Completionist, you get 4 twists. I see +2 CHA twist, Angelic Presence, but what is the 4th twist?
    3) It seems that my sorc would be 5 CHA below max right now (2 base because 18 racial max, 1 racial enhancement and I do not and probably will never have Completionist). Am I missing anything else racially? I know that I can make up 3 CHA intermittently with action boosts however.
    4) Why only 1 Epic CHA? I would most likely have 1 Epic Spell Focus and 2 Epic CHA feats.

    Thanks for any/all help
    Sorry for the delay in responses.. didn't see this until now.

    1) Globe of True Imperial Blood: http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Globe_o...Imperial_Blood Basically +1 to all stats (exceptional)

    2)
    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Twists: Draconic: Energy Burst (4), Fatesinger: Echo’s of the Draconic Incarnation (3), Magister: Necromancy Specialist (2), Divine Crusader: Charisma (1)
    You could drop Energy Burst for +1 Cha.. but that would give you an odd number and not be of much value

    3) Don't know much about your Sorc.. but your math seems solid

    4) I normalize the builds on things that would be effective.. ie. my epic feats were: Epic SF: Necro (21), Great Charisma (24), Ruin (27). As a normalizing tool to make effective builds I can see most people choosing to have Ruin and Energy Burst over +1 DC. However, if you feel the +1 DC is better for your build .. go for it (just don't say I didn't warn you )

  19. #39
    Death's Dominator Eth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alternative View Post
    As for the bards, the limited selection of spells makes them kinda meh imo, but to each his own.
    This.
    They get Ottos sphere and single hold for enchant.
    Soundburst in evocation, which is nice for the helpless part, but is extremely short.
    They lack burst AoE damage spells in order to benefit from the CC (twisting energy burst I guess?).
    They have absolutely nothing to deal with undeads other than fascinate with music of the undead, so DC specced absolutely useless in that regard.
    4 necro spells total. Bard casting fear - so scary.

    Give them a +10 DC over other DC casters.
    I'd still prefer my wizard any time over a casting bard.
    Last edited by Eth; 07-28-2014 at 04:24 AM.
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