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  1. #41
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Disagree. If this were true, MMOs wouldn't be a thing.
    False. DDO had no issues here for 5 years before they started invalidating old systems with new ones.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    False. DDO had no issues here for 5 years before they started invalidating old systems with new ones.
    Disagree again. Nothing I've ever had in this game has been worth it forever. It always ends up invalidated, and a lot worse than what we are currently seeing with guild augments. At least people with guild augments aren't at a loss. They're in the same exact place.

  3. #43
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Disagree again. Nothing I've ever had in this game has been worth it forever. It always ends up invalidated, and a lot worse than what we are currently seeing with guild augments. At least people with guild augments aren't at a loss. They're in the same exact place.
    False.

    Now please answer the question: Do you think those people who traded an ottos box for an EE dream visor a week before deadly10/accuracy10 was put into the game are jumping at the occasion to spend like amounts of money to make similar trades nowdays?
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #44
    The Hatchery Nédime's Avatar
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    Yeah, seriously, I am aware that there are different playstyles, but sometimes the whining is just plain ridiculous.

    I am sorry your toy is broken OP (well it is not, you don't lose hp : the additional don't stack with the old one), and very sorry that you'll need to adapt (which is what rpg is about) but I have to say that this is not a big deal.

    And yes I have a ton of large/medium guild slot items roting in my tr caches.
    Last edited by Nédime; 06-19-2014 at 11:14 AM. Reason: typo
    Aezechiel (Caster, 8th life) - Kakophonyc (Bard, 2nd life) - Larsenkarden (Cleric, 3rd life) - Lewela (Bard, 6th life) - Punkcanard (dual deathnip centered halfling tempest 3rd life) - Usuldur (Melee, completionist) - Sylentbob (ranger) ... and a couple of mules


    “It seemed to me,' said Wonko the Sane, 'that any civilization that had so far lost its head as to need to include a set of detailed instructions for use in a package of toothpicks, was no longer a civilization in which I could live and stay sane.”
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    False.

    Now please answer the question: Do you think those people who traded an ottos box for an EE dream visor a week before deadly10/accuracy10 was put into the game are jumping at the occasion to spend like amounts of money to make similar trades nowdays?
    Okay then

    ETA: That's the nature of MMOs. Of all MMOs.

  6. #46
    The Hatchery Nédime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    False.

    Now please answer the question: Do you think those people who traded an ottos box for an EE dream visor a week before deadly10/accuracy10 was put into the game are jumping at the occasion to spend like amounts of money to make similar trades nowdays?
    Lol an ottos box for a deadly X/accuracy X ? Did they use a stolen credit card ? I may be bad at maths but this is not worth an ottos box.
    Aezechiel (Caster, 8th life) - Kakophonyc (Bard, 2nd life) - Larsenkarden (Cleric, 3rd life) - Lewela (Bard, 6th life) - Punkcanard (dual deathnip centered halfling tempest 3rd life) - Usuldur (Melee, completionist) - Sylentbob (ranger) ... and a couple of mules


    “It seemed to me,' said Wonko the Sane, 'that any civilization that had so far lost its head as to need to include a set of detailed instructions for use in a package of toothpicks, was no longer a civilization in which I could live and stay sane.”
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  7. #47
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Okay then

    ETA: That's the nature of MMOs. Of all MMOs.
    Not the one we are discussing.

    DDO set itself apart from other MMOs by -NOT- invalidating loot and content every new expansion/update. Many peoples reasoning for playing this game, is because its not a clone of other games where the expectation is that their time invested acquisition of loot will be invalidated regularly.
    Last edited by Chai; 06-19-2014 at 11:25 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #48
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nédime View Post
    Lol an ottos box for a deadly X/accuracy X ? Did they use a stolen credit card ? I may be bad at maths but this is not worth an ottos box.
    Nope.

    Ottos box for EE dream visor, BEFORE deadly/accuracy was put into the game.

    You LOLing at that is exactly what I am talking about, because before deadly/accuracy, +4/+4 hit/damage on one item was best in slot. After deadly/accuracy, its garbage.

    This is the kind of stuff that makes customers pause, second, third guess new purchases, because they not only have no assurance those purchases will retain their value, but theres clear evidence historically of that value depreciating to the point where the purchase would be deemed a mistake only a short time later - as indicated by your reaction.

    Putting in D/A +6/+6 stacking would have solved the issue, allowing the dream visor to retain its value. Putting in D/A +10/+10 nonstacking furthered that issue, which causes customers to hesitate, and not buy, where they would have in the past.

    THe people getting nailed here are those who spent either RL money to acquire guild augment items, or large sums of plat to get them. Furthermore, those people who understand they are now useless will be placing them on the AH/ASAH to sell them to people who are not yet aware they are useless.
    Last edited by Chai; 06-19-2014 at 11:28 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  9. #49
    Community Member Ykt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmoustakas View Post
    I invested in large slot blanks, fail.
    You can still get +80sp from large slots. (becomes 160sp on sorc/fvs)

    I have about 30 large guild slot blanks, not sure if I should get rid of them or hold onto them.
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  10. #50
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    False.
    Technically he's right. Once the servers go down, all loot is invalidated. This will happen with certainty .

    Practically he's mostly right as well. Underdark and epic Gianthold invalidated all of my gear except for ESoS. With every epic pack released some of my loot had to be replaced. Maybe the rate at which this happens is slower in DDO than in other games, but loot invalidation has happened constantly over the years and will keep happening until the final update.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Now please answer the question: Do you think those people who traded an ottos box for an EE dream visor a week before deadly10/accuracy10 was put into the game are jumping at the occasion to spend like amounts of money to make similar trades nowdays?
    Some of them will, others not. Does it matter?

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    WHat Im referring to isnt limited to the guild system. This is simply one example where changes were made that invalidated old entities in game which people worked to attain.

    It happens quite a bit. Customers are now hesitating to buy, for fear it wont have value in an update or two due to changes/adjustments/rollout of somethign new which devalues what they bought a short time ago.
    I asked: what was the last system that was replaced prior to the Guild Augment system being replaced.

  12. #52
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I asked: what was the last system that was replaced prior to the Guild Augment system being replaced.
    I can't recall any.

    To be honest, the guild augment system was a bit of a failure anyway. Requiring a specific guild level to wear a certain item never made sense to me.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    THe people getting nailed here are those who spent either RL money to acquire guild augment items, or large sums of plat to get them. Furthermore, those people who understand they are now useless will be placing them on the AH/ASAH to sell them to people who are not yet aware they are useless.
    This is a game. Games change all the time. You say that DDO used to not invalidate gear - DDO used to not have content updates that would invalidate gear. Since F2P there has been increasing gear progression, its not like invalidating guild augments came out of the blue. Once they announced that guild augment items would no longer drop I could see the writing on the wall. In my opinion anyone who claims they could not see the writing was sticking their head in the sand.

    I've never understood why people would spend large amounts of RL money on individual in-game items. They are spending money on pixels, not a physical item that you have any control over. If I buy a physical item, it will always be mine and no one can simply change it on me or make it disappear. For an in-game item, they can simply change the rules of how it works or how it looks, etc. Of course people should spend their money however they choose but I've never grasped why they are upset when this type of thing happens.

    I will make a disclaimer that if a company actually sells an item for real money in its store, the company should make every effort not to invalidate that item and should compensate people who purchased it if they do invalidate it. But we are not talking about that situation here.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    I can't recall any.

    To be honest, the guild augment system was a bit of a failure anyway. Requiring a specific guild level to wear a certain item never made sense to me.
    Yea, they should have made it with generic slots where the augment you slotted determined the item level like now. I guess that's why they introduced the new augment system.

  15. #55
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    This is a game. Games change all the time. You say that DDO used to not invalidate gear - DDO used to not have content updates that would invalidate gear. Since F2P there has been increasing gear progression, its not like invalidating guild augments came out of the blue. Once they announced that guild augment items would no longer drop I could see the writing on the wall. In my opinion anyone who claims they could not see the writing was sticking their head in the sand.

    I've never understood why people would spend large amounts of RL money on individual in-game items. They are spending money on pixels, not a physical item that you have any control over. If I buy a physical item, it will always be mine and no one can simply change it on me or make it disappear. For an in-game item, they can simply change the rules of how it works or how it looks, etc. Of course people should spend their money however they choose but I've never grasped why they are upset when this type of thing happens.

    I will make a disclaimer that if a company actually sells an item for real money in its store, the company should make every effort not to invalidate that item and should compensate people who purchased it if they do invalidate it. But we are not talking about that situation here.
    People buy items using shards they bought for RL money - a semantic difference only. Turbine still makes money off that all the same, and if they want people to be comfortible enough with the system where they want to continue to use it, they would not be so quick to invalidate stuff they know people pay RL money for.

    So yes, we are talking about that situation here. The fact that people spend money buying the disney dollars first, before buying the product with the in game currency, makes no difference to those who got burned once or twice by something like this already. They are think twice and thrice before spending again, because the value of the product can change in an instant, at the whim of th game designers.

    A warning that the item will become invalid after the fact, is not going to ease peoples conscience when it comes time to purchase things in the future. It doesnt change the fact that time and or money was spent acquiring something that no longer holds similar value. .

    I also outlined how they could have avoided this issue from occurring, where the value of the item would be the same, and the current value of the combined pair would be the same semantically as far as the power it gives.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #56
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I asked: what was the last system that was replaced prior to the Guild Augment system being replaced.
    Legacy Ship buffs. - Xp shrine in particular. Could just allow players to earn the old version the same way they used to and monetize the new ones.

    Festival glaciation and icy burst ML increase. Told it was going to be a +2 level increase. Bahahahahahahaha.

    Ghostbane-ing of loot. Some items went from best in slot to worthless as I outlined. (not second or third best in slot - worthless).

    When analyzing this one iteration it seems trivial, but taking into account that it keeps happening and you should be able to see why people get irritated with it.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Disagree again. Nothing I've ever had in this game has been worth it forever. It always ends up invalidated, and a lot worse than what we are currently seeing with guild augments. At least people with guild augments aren't at a loss. They're in the same exact place.
    Same. New almost always invalidates old.

    People with slots lost nothing. People without slots gained something.

    If the ship buffs stacked with guild augments, that means more power creep not attainable by newer players who don't have a bunch of large slot items.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Same. New almost always invalidates old.

    People with slots lost nothing. People without slots gained something.

    If the ship buffs stacked with guild augments, that means more power creep not attainable by newer players who don't have a bunch of large slot items.
    This makes sense. I expect the anti-powercreep crowd will be in favor of this, while the neutrals won't care either way, and the pro-powercreeps will object. Nobody lost anything, but some feel they should have gained extra.
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Disagree again. Nothing I've ever had in this game has been worth it forever. It always ends up invalidated, and a lot worse than what we are currently seeing with guild augments. At least people with guild augments aren't at a loss. They're in the same exact place.
    Can we just assume that you will disagree with anyone that suggests anything Turbine could do better? It would make these threads shorter.

  20. #60
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Legacy Ship buffs. - Xp shrine in particular. Could just allow players to earn the old version the same way they used to and monetize the new ones.

    Festival glaciation and icy burst ML increase. Told it was going to be a +2 level increase. Bahahahahahahaha.

    Ghostbane-ing of loot. Some items went from best in slot to worthless as I outlined. (not second or third best in slot - worthless).

    When analyzing this one iteration it seems trivial, but taking into account that it keeps happening and you should be able to see why people get irritated with it.
    This is why they have to update old loot to stay relevant with newer power creep.

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