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Thread: *facepalm*

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    It has to be a combo of the game and your PC and your network connection. If it was JUST the game, it would happen to everyone.

    Note I'm not saying it's just your PC... but it's not just the game either.
    EVERY software developer must make the choice of developing their software to interact well with not only certain operating systems but also certain hardware systems like chipsets, graphic cards, etc. It is not the player's fault if the developer does not optimize their software correctly.

  2. #22
    The Hatchery Nédime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    But I would like to say that since getting a SSD, and re-installing Windows 7 and DDO from scratch, I load into the game in 5 seconds, never crash, and never have any problems closing the game either.
    Bah I got guildies with brand new PCs and reinstalled game that crashes on zoning. Some have the deco on arrival bug even though they use preloader. Some have average PC and never have a bug. Some need 5 minutes just to load the launcher's 10 EN loading screens.

    Guess Computer Science is not an exact science.
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  3. #23
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    I'm not saying Turbine shouldn't be working on making their 8-year old game work on mid-line PCs and laptops... They SHOULD indeed be spending time on that...

    But I would like to say that since getting a SSD, and re-installing Windows 7 and DDO from scratch, I load into the game in 5 seconds, never crash, and never have any problems closing the game either.
    It's not a panacea. Also, DDO is just about the ONLY game that does this for me. And my laptop ran Crysis 1 and 2 on medium to high settings without any issues. Other, newer MMOs (Neverwinter, FFXIV, Aion) - no issues. DDO could spend half an hour shutting down, and I know it's not just me. So yea, it's not the PC's fault.
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

  4. #24
    Community Member XiaNYdE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    You know, most software roll-outs have issues. On this, they’ve been Johnny-on-the-spot with a fix. They identified it quickly, gave a time-frame, and then delivered a fix in that time-frame. That’s what you’re supposed to do in situations like this.
    You know most software roll-outs don't release with major issues and software breaking bugs reported by their testers, this seems to be the domain of Turbine alone, and sorry if i can't heap praise on them for delivering a fix for something that should never have made it live, there is no excuse for poor workmanship, period.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    From what I have heard / read, there are quite a lot of people who have DDO hanging on for large periods of time after quitting. Just like large amounts of people have problems logging in and have to restart the game, I don't think this is necessarily the users' issue. If you either need to get back into the game or need to start some other game or equally intensive activity, letting the game "shut down gracefully" may not be an option. So Turbine should fix whatever is causing the game to hang on quit.
    Yes, I have the same problem quitting the game, though not every time, and I wind up shutting down with task manager. I definitely think its either a ddo problem, or possibly a network(ddo) problem. I've noticed that it happens much more often in the afternoon/evening (ESt), than it does in the morning when less ppl are logged into the game, There are of course other issues, like the game sometimes hanging on the character load screen (and btw, I have a year old comp with an ssd).

  6. #26
    The Hatchery Paleus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XiaNYdE View Post
    You know most software roll-outs don't release with major issues and software breaking bugs reported by their testers, this seems to be the domain of Turbine alone, and sorry if i can't heap praise on them for delivering a fix for something that should never have made it live, there is no excuse for poor workmanship, period.
    Sorry, not to excuse Turbine, but my experience with Rome Total War 2 suggests that Turbine is very much not alone in releasing buggy as hell software or the inability to release patches that can address basic issues. Turbine just doesn't have near the same level of cash to buy off game reviewers. (I play fewer video games these days and that was the last one I had been really looking forward to since I had long enjoyed the original).
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    Quote Originally Posted by KookieKobold View Post
    i'll be putting a bug into our system.

  7. #27
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    It's not a panacea. Also, DDO is just about the ONLY game that does this for me. And my laptop ran Crysis 1 and 2 on medium to high settings without any issues. Other, newer MMOs (Neverwinter, FFXIV, Aion) - no issues. DDO could spend half an hour shutting down, and I know it's not just me. So yea, it's not the PC's fault.
    So what else is different between your PC and my PC? Because we both have the same game loaded and it works fine on my PC...

    And what laptop did you have that ran Crysis 1 fine? Was this a laptop you bought recently, and you're just now getting around to playing Crysis?

    Or are you claiming you had a laptop that could run Crysis 1 the same year Crysis 1 came out?
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  8. #28
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    So what else is different between your PC and my PC? Because we both have the same game loaded and it works fine on my PC...
    Ummm, their location on the internet? Turbine and their products have had a longterm issue with assuming that everyone playing them is connected via 100 Mbit ethernet at a maximum distance of 25 miles. If they want to limit their customer base to Massachusetts, that works great...

    The double login problem is obviously a timing thing, which is why it works with some people and doesn't work with others. It is undoubtedly keeping some people from logging in, ever (*cough, glances at the old emachines sitting right next door*).

    And the 2GB of ram thing was hilarious. I used to run DDO on a 1GB machine with a nVidia 3D card, and it worked better than my current 8GB quad-core machine does now. Throwing more stats at a problem is something to be expected from the DDO playerbase, but its hardly a proven method in any field in any discipline.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Ummm, their location on the internet? Turbine and their products have had a longterm issue with assuming that everyone playing them is connected via 100 Mbit ethernet at a maximum distance of 25 miles. If they want to limit their customer base to Massachusetts, that works great...

    The double login problem is obviously a timing thing, which is why it works with some people and doesn't work with others. It is undoubtedly keeping some people from logging in, ever (*cough, glances at the old emachines sitting right next door*).

    And the 2GB of ram thing was hilarious. I used to run DDO on a 1GB machine with a nVidia 3D card, and it worked better than my current 8GB quad-core machine does now. Throwing more stats at a problem is something to be expected from the DDO playerbase, but its hardly a proven method in any field in any discipline.
    I think the 2GB ram thing was not meant to be specific, but rather a generalized joke about placing outsized expectations on hardware. But your point about location and network is well taken. A computer experience is more than just one piece of hardware (be it graphics cards, processer, ram, hard-drive) or software (one game installation may be corrupted, there may be viruses or just bloat) or network (wifi gaming vs wired, bad ISP, old router, etc). The components that go into a gaming experience are quite numerous, so when someone says Symptom A = Cause B they are fooling themselves. Whether they always its the developer's fault, or upgrading to SSD will fix it. The only thing you can do is avoid ignoring what could be a potential issue on your end by reflexively blaming someone else, or wasting money upgrading your end when the issue is truly out of your control. And you can always fully detail out your setup and ask for help nicely if you truly want it. Thats usually better than vague complaints that really do nothing other than act as a bit of catharsis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KookieKobold View Post
    i'll be putting a bug into our system.

  10. #30
    Community Member Certon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleus View Post
    2 gigs of RAM? I used to be able to run games on 1024K, so why do I need to upgrade my computer, Turbine should just fix their code.
    Graphics were 'lacking' back in the mid 90's, and MMO's were all but unheard of. Heck, EverQuest didn't even exist until 1999, unless you're talking about Meridian, which was garbage even when it came out.

    If you could make DDO run on 1024k system memory with no dedicated graphics memory, you'd be a billionaire.

  11. #31
    Community Member painkiller3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nédime View Post
    ...

    Guess Computer Science is not an exact science.
    there are a lot of moving parts. i bet every single one of the developers wishes this was on an xBox instead of a computer so you didn't have to worry about hardware differences...despite what most (all?) of you think, i'm pretty sure they don't notice a lot of the start up/shutdown issues because they are all using the same machines there and it works on their setup (whether it's high end, low end or somewhere inbetween)

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    From what I have heard / read, there are quite a lot of people who have DDO hanging on for large periods of time after quitting.
    A workaround for this is to log out to the character selection screen and then exit the game from there. That usually prevents hanging on exit. Well, four out of five times from my testing compared to none out of all exiting while logged into a character. Could be complete rubbish and I simply got lucky 80% of the time.
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  13. #33
    The Hatchery Nédime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by painkiller3 View Post
    there are a lot of moving parts. i bet every single one of the developers wishes this was on an xBox instead of a computer so you didn't have to worry about hardware differences...despite what most (all?) of you think, i'm pretty sure they don't notice a lot of the start up/shutdown issues because they are all using the same machines there and it works on their setup (whether it's high end, low end or somewhere inbetween)
    Oh I'm aware of the differences between devs and end users, even if I'm not in gaming industry. They tend to have better, optimized equipments than the majority of their customers and don't understand why it doesn't work as well as on their PCs
    Aezechiel (Caster, 8th life) - Kakophonyc (Bard, 2nd life) - Larsenkarden (Cleric, 3rd life) - Lewela (Bard, 6th life) - Punkcanard (dual deathnip centered halfling tempest 3rd life) - Usuldur (Melee, completionist) - Sylentbob (ranger) ... and a couple of mules


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  14. #34
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Le' Sigh...

    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin-ator View Post
    You don't say. Most companies make some small effort to test their software first, though. There's no way something that major wasn't identified in the Lammania versions.
    Ummm...if you look at some of my rantings about how Turbine does business, you'll see me saying the exact thing. I, personally, am a stickler for relaseing stuff without bugs. This is mainly because I develop software that runs 24/7 in environments where bug fixes are non-existent. They are non-existent because if you have a bug in your software, half of management and all of the lawyers for said client is standing over your shoulder while you're coding with a colonoscopy device, wanting to know why it isn't working, when it will be fixed, what you had for lunch along with reminding you how many millions of dollars they are losing every minute they are down.

    And no, I am not remotely exaggerating about this.

    This is a game. Your inability to deconstruct items for components is about as significant in real-world terms as well...uh...it's just really, really insignificant. Them identifying it, notifying us, and delivering a timely fix is an improvement from they way things have been traditionally done with DDO. You should acknowledge it and promote it so that it happens more often. This is opposed to snarling and barking like a junkyard dog at every little hiccup done by the Turbine staff.


    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin-ator View Post
    The problem you're talking about occurs when you're trying to move something that hasn't rendered yet. The server disagrees with the client on positioning, so it shunts you back. There was nothing to get in the way. I spent 30s trying to run away from the mob that got on me. I stopped moving, ran around it, it somewhere else, but no matter what, it would swing its sword and I would be dragged back to its location, wherever it happened to be at that second.
    When you move LOTS of things happen. This includes data packets being sent over the wire to the servers. There is a dizzying array of buffering and queueing that goes on from Point A (you pressing a key) to Point B (the server acting on that keystroke), of which only about half of it Turbine has physical control over.

    Do I think it is on their side somewhere. Yeah.

    Is it bad? Ummm...kinda.

    Am I sorry your toon died? Yeah, it's sad. You had to recall and repair. In the grand scheme of things - like California sliding into the ocean and so on - it is pretty insignificant.

    Can anyone here DEFINITIVELY point to where the exact problem is? No. I probably could find out (it is what I do for a living), but it ain;t happening until the decide to cut me a pretty big check.


    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin-ator View Post
    You don't say. There's no way an epic level toon would have know that, right?

    I couldn't stun it and run away, genius, like I could a normal mob. Stunning Fist/Blow won't work as an escape tactic, so I died to it.
    I can'd hold or neg level many (if not all) red-named mobs on my wizzy. So, from my perspective, all I can say is: "boo hoo."


    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin-ator View Post
    That's great for you, but I have better things to do with my free time than wait upwards of 20 minutes to wait for a program to end on its own. Regardless of whether it was this release or not, it was coded by Turbine and it is their fault that it exists. The fact that this has been going on for so long is even worse, but at least it has an easy workaround. Also, are you saying you wait for that length of time for Windows to decide that it's not gonna end on its own, every time you log off? I call BS. Besides, whether you end it it manually or Windows decides to ask if you want to end the process, the program is not being shut down as it should, so it doesn't matter if you do it now or wait.
    On my PC at home - which is not a real powerhouse my any stretch of the imagination - it takes about 30 seconds for the game to end. If it is taking you 20 minutes like you claim, and you're not just impatient or just grossly exaggerating, then it is NOT a problem with the game. it's on your PC somewhere.

    It can be your virus detection.

    It can be your hard drive going bad.

    It can be issues with your TCP/IP stack.

    It can be about a dozen things on your PC that will re-create the same issue.


    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin-ator View Post
    Never given me anywhere near this level of grief before. Except the blackscreen, but it's never messed anything up before today. May not be the problem today either.
    I get the "black screen" all of the time, and well before the latest update. I'm running in a windowed mode, and the window does go black while the game disconnects, and unloads its resources. if you are using the app in the full screen version, this will explain what you are seeing.

    But when it is in black-screen mode, I can still work on my PC normally.


    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin-ator View Post
    That's true. In some programs, closing via Task Manager is something that may cause data loss/corruption. Thing is, I can't close it normally because Turbine can't code. I've played this game for 4 years, and it's hung on a blackscreen at every close. If I could do it the proper way, I would. It's not my install, either. I've reinstalled this thing twice, using a fresh download each time. All 3 times I've had a clean version of the program, it has hung like this.
    If you knew that closing stuff in Task Manager can cause data loss/corruption, why are you surprised that you are experiencing...data loss and corruption?

    Seriously...


    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin-ator View Post
    Don't talk to me about cleaning out my PC. I keep this thing spic-and-span. Defrag, registry clean, removing old files, malware scan, keeping HDD more than 50% free, swap file on empty partition, the works. Every month, I give it another tune-up. This 3 year old machine runs twice as well as most 2 year old ones, and almost as well as a mid-range, new stock PC. It may be a little outdated, but it does well enough on everything but new PC games.

    And I don't do half of that, and I haven't seen any of what you are describing. My stuff is about a Plain Jane as you can get, and a little older than what you have. I have an i5 processor with a mediocre graphics card, and about 6 GB of RAM. If yours is more powerful than this, then it is most likely the PC.

    But last time I checked, dfrag doesn't resolve HD issues. ChkDsk does.


    As for crappy coding - yeah, maybe the people at Turbine are not the best as far as coding goes. They use a lot of stock stuff (like a purchased physics engine and so on) which they only have so much control over. And I'm pretty sure their testing needs a swift kick in the ass. This, however, is not uncommon in a lot of software shops. I'm not using it as an excuse, as I sure as hell don't hide behind that kind of lazy, half-assed excuse-making. Then again, I'm considered a dinosaur because I don't jump at using something in my applications that is "so cool". I use what I know works; the reasons for that are described near the top of this Wall 'o Text.

    However, unless you are a genius coder yourself - and I seriously doubt that you are based on the fact that some of these very obvious things you described to me escaped your notice - I wouldn't be the one throwing stones given the fragility of your own glass house.

  15. #35
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DakFrost View Post
    The typical response you'll get from the "All is well" crowd is that it's not the game it's your PC.

    This is despite the fact that large numbers of people see the same issues; multi logins and forced shutdowns.
    Have I been one of those who said that "all is well" with DDO?

    Wait, let me answer that for you: no.

    However, if you are such a great software developer that you know how to do it better, why haven't you?

    Many of the things the OP is experiencing I've seen now for a while, and corresponds to the normal operation of the game. Turbine cannot make software that works on every PC in every setting (including PCs that are completely jacked). So, if this same thing is not happening on a PC with similar constraints, and Turbine hasn't changed anything per se, isn't it prudent to check the PC with the issues first?

    The OP stated that he was using Task Manager to kill stuff, which is a BIG no-no. The "black screen" thing I've been seeing for a while now. It isn't a HUGE leap to put both of these together.

    Likewise - without going into a lot of detail - that black screen thing may have to do with some of the Microsoft stuff that Turbine may be using. It very well may be something they have very little control over.

  16. #36
    Master Assassin nokowi's Avatar
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    There were some serious lag issues shortly after U22 patch 1. 1/2 my group was in 3BC and half in a 3BC quest and everyone in the wilderness couldn't move. We all had to recall out of the wilderness and we reformed. This fixed our problem. These problems usually appear mostly durign special events (Mabar, Cove, etc).

    The OP was having connection issues (rubber banding, etc) whether it was the OP or Turbines fault. After a short wait, I shut down ddo completely and restart when this happens. If this does not fix the problem, I reset my router. These 2 steps always seem to fix my problems.

    As a general rule, avoid any game immediately after an update if you can't handle things not running perfectly. There is usually a stealth patch within 24 hours of any update. Take it easy on the Dev's, they lost 1/2 of their staff and I'm sure they are doing the best they can with the staff they have.

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