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  1. #21
    Hero BurnerD's Avatar
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    I generally don't get into arguments about changes to the game.

    Changes to the game in regards to mechanics, characters/classes, difficulty, etc don't really bother me. I'll give any change in these areas a try.

    It was no surprise when the game went free to play and micro transactions were introduced that many changes were focused solely on revenue increase and not necessarily improving the quality of the game. In many cases these changes negatively impacted game quality.

    Add in the increased pressure to churn out more content without fixing many of the longstanding issues, or even issues from the previous update has created a self-sustaining downward spiral on overall gameplay quality.

    Bugs, lag, features that do not operate correctly, crappy inventory UI, and inability to fix some cheating issues have become the main focus of those on the forums. I miss the days when most of the complaining was about a specific build getting nerfed.

    Management focus is on squeezing as much cash as possible out of whatever time this game has left. This isn't the devs fault.

    The main enemy of DDO is time. The amount of time it has operated and the amount of time the bean counters believe it has left as a viable income source.

    Hopefully this game will be around for awhile, but I have come to the realization that if they shut it down tomorrow I wouldn't really miss it.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuleAxe View Post
    It's more the need to create an end game mentality, than playing high level content. The perception of some, that others have to be the best, creates a divide. The idea that the "end game" is that pinnacle point at which one needs to be in order to feel some sort of achievement or "in-game self worth". I'm not advocating an idea that either side is right or wrong, I'm merely trying to describe, and perhaps add a slight prognostication of what might alleviate some bitterness from one group to another.
    Though the reality is that, in DDO, looking for end game also equals to not looking to chain TR non-stop. I mean, isn't that understandable to get there at one point?

    Oh and I understand the bitterness, but that bitterness isn't even on both side. It's also well known that power gamers have a better idea of the grand scheme of balance. Some casuals too, but I mean as an average. Now i'm not saying that what they say should be more important everytime, but sometimes what they're looking to achieve by their complaints actually include trying to please the casuals... because they know how important it is for the health and the game and how it sucks to not enjoy the game you love.

    I don't see the same enthousiast coming from the casuals masses. It's really more like "ya'll do it wrong, here's how it should be done" or "How can you have fun if you don't do exactly as I do". Which leads to "Since it's the only way to have fun, let's make all the game caters to our needs".

    I'm exaggerating a little of course, but it is how it is nonetheless from my eyes.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Though the reality is that, in DDO, looking for end game also equals to not looking to chain TR non-stop. I mean, isn't that understandable to get there at one point?

    Oh and I understand the bitterness, but that bitterness isn't even on both side. It's also well known that power gamers have a better idea of the grand scheme of balance. Some casuals too, but I mean as an average. Now i'm not saying that what they say should be more important everytime, but sometimes what they're looking to achieve by their complaints actually include trying to please the casuals... because they know how important it is for the health and the game and how it sucks to not enjoy the game you love.

    I don't see the same enthousiast coming from the casuals masses. It's really more like "ya'll do it wrong, here's how it should be done" or "How can you have fun if you don't do exactly as I do". Which leads to "Since it's the only way to have fun, let's make all the game caters to our needs".

    I'm exaggerating a little of course, but it is how it is nonetheless from my eyes.
    Aye, I understand where you are coming from, and agree with your observations. I suppose what I am advocating, is perhaps a lot of the bitterness could be dissolved if folks would take more of an eclectic approach to the game. Understanding that it isn't possible with everyone, those with the ability will need to be the ones to step up. I was hoping (which may be a different topic altogether) that the PC would be used to support this philosophy.
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  4. #24
    Community Member DakFrost's Avatar
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    ALL IS WELL!!!!!!!!!

    Stop talking about the obvious problems!

    Just smile and nod and pretend everything is fun!

    Being critical about Turbine is bad!

    Be a mindless sycophant!

    Don't worry, be happy!

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    I don't see the same enthousiast coming from the casuals masses. It's really more like "ya'll do it wrong, here's how it should be done" or "How can you have fun if you don't do exactly as I do". Which leads to "Since it's the only way to have fun, let's make all the game caters to our needs".
    Being a member of the "casual masses", I can assure you most of us aren't trying to tell anyone how to play the game. Our main goal, like yours, is to have fun. The difference is that's our only goal. We don't generally care what Turbine does. We circumvent or ignore most bugs. When our characters get a big old nerf bat upside the head, we sigh and fix them. Those things don't bother us all that much.

    It's not that we want the power gamers, elitists, et al to have a bad time, we simply don't get bent out of shape about the same things they do. Our passions tend more towards enjoying time spent with guildies and friends than collecting end-game loot. We are flower sniffers in game and out, I suppose.
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  6. #26
    Community Member Psiandron's Avatar
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    I actually feel that the forums are far more polite and civilized than they used to be. I see a lot of effort by people to try and hash out ideas and develop concepts initially provided by others. Do threads get derailed into polarized gainsaying matches? Yep. It still happens, but I think that if you were to compare posts and threads from today with those of 3 or 4 years ago you'd see a real 'positive' difference.

    I do think that there's a certain amount of selfishness and feelings of entitlement evidenced in these forums. That said, you cannot divorce a social interaction like this from the society within which it takes place, nor the species taking part. That's not intended as any sort of blanket condemnation of either, it's just a de facto recognition of the natural short-comings evidenced in both.

    As far as the end-game goes. I have to agree with some of the others who have noted that the period where end-game sat at 20 for so very long was probably the high-mark thus far in the game. Turbine seems to be trying to reestablish that now at 28/30 and I hope that they succeed. I understand your point Ferd, but you have to admit that this is not in fact D&D and that one has to take into account that it is a computer game, so concepts like end-game have real legitimacy.

    Finally Turbine...sigh.
    I do not think that dealing with this customer/client base would be easy. But, if you have any notion that dealing with customers/clients anywhere, at any time is ever an easy job you really have another thing coming. And while I can often single out times when some/most/all of us have been unreasonable, snide and derisive toward Turbine, you have to admit that they made their own bed. Any decision they have made was naturally going to have those opposed to it. In addition, they have historically taken an exclusive rather than an inclusive attitude toward their costumers. Personally, I have always felt that that was a mistake and made their lives more miserable than was absolutely necessary, but it was their decision to make, not mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by MalkavianX View Post
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  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by ferd View Post
    Let's start with the forums.

    Threads get made, people pine away on either side. And more often than not, a common middle ground was discussed.

    Now all I see are stark contrasts in opinion. (which ironically are the point of game aspect of the op) nothing gets settled. And people would rather flame each other, tell us how uber they are etc... It's become pointless.


    The game;

    I can't blame anybody, but the power creep/ power gamer/ and some bad choices made by turbine have turned many aspects of the game into a circus.

    Do we really need the ultimate end-game? This is D&D in it's basic form, THAT game doesn't have an end. get it? Sure it's an mmo, but a D20 RPG doesn't have an end, or an end-game.

    There has been an evolution towards an actual end-game scenario. And in many ways, it's cool, In many ways it's bad as well.
    There was an end game once, twice, and a third time. And each time, the game evolved to create a situation where a new "end-game" was needed.

    MajorMal and the team have a daunting task, with less resources than any other time in this game's history. We as a player base can help with them righting the ship, mainly by being supportive, with constructive feedback. (not flames)

    Maybe we should pull in the rein's, and try to enjoy what we have. For those not around, we went almost 2 years with no new content. And the majority of players stuck it out, or at least kept an interest. This recent mentality of give me the ultimate or you suckk has caused more rifts than Ive ever seen.

    For us (player base) there is no right or wrong, but how we present ourselves, is a direct correlation to how we perceive this game should be.

    *question- how come airships, are the only ship ever/ anywhere/ in rl or game, that doesn't have turbulence/ rough seas etc...* HHMMMM
    "What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?"

  8. #28
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurnerD View Post
    I generally don't get into arguments about changes to the game.

    Changes to the game in regards to mechanics, characters/classes, difficulty, etc don't really bother me. I'll give any change in these areas a try.

    It was no surprise when the game went free to play and micro transactions were introduced that many changes were focused solely on revenue increase and not necessarily improving the quality of the game. In many cases these changes negatively impacted game quality.

    Add in the increased pressure to churn out more content without fixing many of the longstanding issues, or even issues from the previous update has created a self-sustaining downward spiral on overall gameplay quality.

    Bugs, lag, features that do not operate correctly, crappy inventory UI, and inability to fix some cheating issues have become the main focus of those on the forums. I miss the days when most of the complaining was about a specific build getting nerfed.

    Management focus is on squeezing as much cash as possible out of whatever time this game has left. This isn't the devs fault.

    The main enemy of DDO is time. The amount of time it has operated and the amount of time the bean counters believe it has left as a viable income source.

    Hopefully this game will be around for awhile, but I have come to the realization that if they shut it down tomorrow I wouldn't really miss it.
    I agree with most of this.

    Turbine is a business; businesses are in business to make money.
    There was a big shift when DDO went FtP.

    It is very obvious that management is pushing the priorities toward changes that make a profit.
    I actually view a lot of it as greedy, and it turns me off.... but it is what it is... and honestly, if they were not making a profit the game would be long dead by now.

    So I accept it.

    I just keep hoping they will create and fix things to make us happy and take the attitude that happy customers keep coming back.

    It seems they have not totally lost sight of that.
    But I do see a lot of greed... and I do so a lot of stuff never getting fixed.

    I also see stuff being only partially done.... (new Harbor ring a bell?)

    All on all, though I am still having a ton of fun in DDO.

    They haven't quite got the balance I would like between profit and greed, but they are not really that bad either.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by sebastianosmith View Post
    Being a member of the "casual masses", I can assure you most of us aren't trying to tell anyone how to play the game. Our main goal, like yours, is to have fun. The difference is that's our only goal. We don't generally care what Turbine does. We circumvent or ignore most bugs. When our characters get a big old nerf bat upside the head, we sigh and fix them. Those things don't bother us all that much.

    It's not that we want the power gamers, elitists, et al to have a bad time, we simply don't get bent out of shape about the same things they do. Our passions tend more towards enjoying time spent with guildies and friends than collecting end-game loot. We are flower sniffers in game and out, I suppose.
    I know all that and i'm not trying to paint casuals as ignorants but in some ways they are when it comes to what motivates those elitists, power gamers, etc. (Edit: and no idea that we can have as much fun but in other ways. It's a game. Rational people want to have fun playing games. Finally, powergamers / endgamers does not mean being irrational.)

    As an exemple, i'm a power gamer and I don't care a small bit about most bugs. I adapt to changes, I don't whine over something that is not, in fact, taking my fun away. And that leads us to end-game. Your passions may not be the same as others, but what if we'd just take that passion away because for some of us it's not important.

    Well that's simply how it feels for a bunch of people not looking to TR forever right now. It's all there really is behind the "no end game" fuzz atm. People seeing their in-game passion taking away.

    If everyone would understand both side's motivations, we'd be closer to achieve any ressemblance of a middle ground.


    Edit: Btw the classic "no life powergamer" stereotype that mindlessly grinds without possibly real fun does exist in reality. But it's not what most should based their thoughts when thinking about the "average" powergamer since it doesn't seem to represent the majority in DDO.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 06-18-2014 at 04:19 PM.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greeka View Post
    How about giving some feedback how the player's may of directed the direction of the new content based on input they had and feedback related to any play testing they did and why they choose to try and direct in the way they did or why they felt their feedback was meaningful in this process. It is at least 6 months into the first council's term with a new council coming in 6 months or less, if you feel your opinion and feedback and drive the game in a better direction then start campaigning now to help improve the life of all your fellow gamers from all worlds here.
    We can't really answer this. The NDA means we are banned from discussing details. I have mentioned a few times that they DID change things based on our feedback, but I can not outline what. The details of the things they changed are under the nda. And then it doesn't really matter if I say they changed things because of it, people will just call me a fanturtle or a liar because I'm unwilling to break my nda and go into details. They changed a major flaw in the new guild buff system, but I can't tell you what the flaw was for example, just that we realized it was going to go a way they weren't thinking of, argued over it hard, and they changed it. We have been argued down by devs.

    And we do NOT playtest. I have no idea how many times I have said this now, but we do NOT have a server like Mournlands did. We don't see anything in game until the same day the rest of the community does on Lammania. I can't count how often people have told me in game and pms we should have bug tested better, and people I know I told directly we do NOT HAVE A TEST SERVER. I am starting to understand really why Turbine doesn't talk more.

    I will reiterate again: We are given written proposals to dissect. We dissect them. We argue over them, both with each other and with any devs who are in the discussion; and when we make a good, well thought out logical case (NOTE: not emotional ranting) they make changes. The biggest education I have gotten from being on the PC is that it doesn't matter how great or awful an idea is, some of the group will love it and some will hate it. There is nothing the entire group agrees on, who you share a common stance with varies from thread to thread, and Turbine did an awesome job picking really truly different personalities and playstyles. One group will be convinced idea A will save ddo, group b won't care, and group C will be convinced it will kill it. There really, truly is no "ALL THE PLAYERS WANT THIS!" on anything.
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  11. #31
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Agree. And I actually puked all the hate in one place instead of multi quoting (hate to do that). That part wasn't directed to him.

    There's a big difference between end gamers, elitists, power gamers, etc...

    I understand the variety of approches, goals, playstyles, incentives, (been everything at different points) etc., but more than often I feel like the other side (casual masses) isn't doing any effort at all to understand those differences. They've never been on the other side of the fence. And the misconception keeps going, putting everyone without a pure casual way of playing the game into the same baskets. Like if they don't enjoy the game.

    To each their own motivations. The "teenager playing 8h+ a day" represents such a small % of the "end gamers / elitists / powergamers", yet it still how pretty much all of them are being painted.

    Anyways, it's not about to change.

    Edit: Having a D&D background doesn't make one more relaxed, calm or patient. It's because those people are like that in the first place that they enjoy it. News flash, some non-D&D players also possess those traits.
    A guy with a big ol' basket of casual here...

    You ever listen to what many (not all, but many) of these end-gamers say in these quests? They lose 10%, and it's like the end of the world is upon them. I wonder how proud they would be of their "accomplishments" if they had to replay some of their comments in front of their spouses, kids, parents, whatever.

    I grew up with all of this technology, and the games, and so on. It's nothing special to me, and therefore not worth the emotional investment that some put into it. I attribute it to having priorities in life that have nothing to do with how I keep myself entertained. Hence, my derision for powergamers and so on.

    It's nice you're good at a video game. I put it up there with being good at something like baseball. However, unless you're able to proffer that skill into some kind of career - where you actually do something productive - I don't see how you can thump your chest over your accomplishments.

    Once someone flips the switch on DDO to the off position, your grand accomplishments and skills vanish in the blink of an eye. It's not like they atrophy, and that you can re-learn it like riding a bicycle. It's gone for good. POOF! Fini-to.

    And by the way, I'm none too keen about the adulation of sports professionals. It's good you can put a ball into a little hole, or kick it halfway down the field. It doesn't build bridges, make cars, or grow food. It is not a productive activity that's worth much mention. Yet everyone wants to be a basketball star...

    Whatever.

    So long as you have these types of prevailing attitudes, you're going to have this kind of division.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    A guy with a big ol' basket of casual here...

    You ever listen to what many (not all, but many) of these end-gamers say in these quests? They lose 10%, and it's like the end of the world is upon them. I wonder how proud they would be of their "accomplishments" if they had to replay some of their comments in front of their spouses, kids, parents, whatever.

    I grew up with all of this technology, and the games, and so on. It's nothing special to me, and therefore not worth the emotional investment that some put into it. I attribute it to having priorities in life that have nothing to do with how I keep myself entertained. Hence, my derision for powergamers and so on.

    It's nice you're good at a video game. I put it up there with being good at something like baseball. However, unless you're able to proffer that skill into some kind of career - where you actually do something productive - I don't see how you can thump your chest over your accomplishments.

    Once someone flips the switch on DDO to the off position, your grand accomplishments and skills vanish in the blink of an eye. It's not like they atrophy, and that you can re-learn it like riding a bicycle. It's gone for good. POOF! Fini-to.

    And by the way, I'm none too keen about the adulation of sports professionals. It's good you can put a ball into a little hole, or kick it halfway down the field. It doesn't build bridges, make cars, or grow food. It is not a productive activity that's worth much mention. Yet everyone wants to be a basketball star...

    Whatever.

    So long as you have these types of prevailing attitudes, you're going to have this kind of division.
    I'm not really going to keep going with someone such close minded but I will tell you this one thing to help clear one misconception.

    Being a power gamer has nothing to do with thinking about playing game as a career. BEing a power gamer also has nothing set in stone when it comes to time spent. There can be casuals playing just as much if not more than a power gamer, yet they won't get the same treatment from people like you? Why is that so? Because you have no idea what's really going on through their heads or what situation they are in.

    Essentially, being a power gamer is looking to "own" the game by any means (legit or not, depends on the individual). Through skills, min/maxing, abusing AI, etc.

    I've never looked for any accomplishment (even less so emotional engagement) through games, I grew up around games and, for me, it's been a hobby since i'm about 8 years old. So yeah, I got good after hours and hours in. So what?

    Just stop thinking that how you act/think is how people should base their average ideas from please.

    Edit: And most importantly, how they can or cannot enjoy something in a different manner.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 06-19-2014 at 09:19 PM.
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  13. #33
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sebastianosmith View Post
    Being a member of the "casual masses", I can assure you most of us aren't trying to tell anyone how to play the game. Our main goal, like yours, is to have fun. The difference is that's our only goal. We don't generally care what Turbine does. We circumvent or ignore most bugs. When our characters get a big old nerf bat upside the head, we sigh and fix them. Those things don't bother us all that much.

    It's not that we want the power gamers, elitists, et al to have a bad time, we simply don't get bent out of shape about the same things they do. Our passions tend more towards enjoying time spent with guildies and friends than collecting end-game loot. We are flower sniffers in game and out, I suppose.
    This.

    It amazes me how bent-out-of-shape some people get about a video game. Every time a person types a huge rant into these forums, they should imagine saying it out loud... in front of their parents or children or friends....

    Then they should rewrite it to be a calm constructive post with possible solutions for any problems they address.

    Note that I realize I should take this same advice at times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  14. #34
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferd View Post
    Do we really need the ultimate end-game? This is D&D in it's basic form, THAT game doesn't have an end. get it? Sure it's an mmo, but a D20 RPG doesn't have an end, or an end-game.
    If Turbine actually provided a working method of "mentorship" such that high level could play the same quest as lower level characters and not hack the XP what so ever, there would be much less of a felt "need" for what players call "end game."

    Live DMs create this "mentorship" all the time by modifying quests to fit the party level of their players. It is one aspect of PnP that they never replicated here. Instead they chose the video game method quests based on character level range and penalties if you are over or under it. The penalties is what makes it so video game vs. PnP "designed for party level range X to Y."

    Personally, I find "end game" to be a very stupid way of thinking. Because it means the game is going to be over very shortly. If you are replaying content, then there is never going to be "end game" till the day that Turbine announces the doors to DDO are shutting. A game like Lotro does have end game because there is very little to replay. Ultimate high level content or some such would be better, but that is only a matter of opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Note that I realize I should take this same advice at times.
    I know I *try* to do so. I've lost track of how many replies I've just deleted and left the thread in question.
    Last edited by Missing_Minds; 06-19-2014 at 09:30 PM.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Personally, I find "end game" to be a very stupid way of thinking. Because it means the game is going to be over very shortly. If you are replaying content, then there is never going to be "end game" till the day that Turbine announces the doors to DDO are shutting. A game like Lotro does have end game because there is very little to replay. Ultimate high level content or some such would be better, but that is only a matter of opinion.
    While I totally agree with this in general and this is why the games I enjoy most are puzzlers, rogue-like and action RPGs, it doesn't apply well to MMOs trying to succeed. If you want to hook up people on the same game over a long period of time, you have to give them something to look for... even if most don't take a second to realize this, you would never play the same game about everyday for 5+ years.

    Now there is the social factor playing a huge role in the equation. So is the fact that you feel like you've "invested money" even if it's not really what's happening because, as other pointed out the game will fade at one point. That's inevitable.

    But still, the end-game factor has a reason to be in the MMOs from my point of view. Not only as a strategical approach from the designers/producers, but also as a long-term "something" to aim for as a player.



    So yes, if realistically players were all about "the journey", without setting up any expectations, no goals, just plain at-the-moment fun would be all that would matter, I would so agree with you. But that just doesn't seem to rhyme too well with long term and MMOs.
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  16. #36
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Edit: Btw the classic "no life powergamer" stereotype that mindlessly grinds without possibly real fun does exist in reality. But it's not what most should based their thoughts when thinking about the "average" powergamer since it doesn't seem to represent the majority in DDO.
    I admit I have the problem of stereotyping many DDO powergamers this way...

    I know that powergamers must have fun playing this game their way or they wouldn't still be here...

    That's why I'm amazed at some of the posts where people complain about horrible the grind is, how it's not fun to repeat the same quest 10 times in a row, or grind out epic destinies by running Impossible Demands until your eyes bleed. All I can think is... maybe those people AREN'T rational. Why do something that isn't fun (over and over and over) and then complain about it?

    But I know they're not the majority of powergamers.
    Last edited by Thrudh; 06-20-2014 at 09:39 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    I admit I have the problem of stereotyping many DDO powergamers this way...

    I know that powergamers must have fun playing this game their way or they wouldn't still be here...

    That's why I'm amazed at some of the posts where people complain about horrible the grind is, how it's not fun to repeat the same quest 10 times in a row, or grind out epic destinies by running Impossible Demands until your eyes bleed. All I can think is... maybe those people AREN'T rational.

    But I know they're not the majority of powergamers.
    And just about anyone can be an unsatisfied customer for x or y reason and then start whining on the forum. But of course, the misconception also obviously makes your eyes focus on the posts which subject is touching powergamers. And I agree they are much louder. But not more frequent... you simply remember them more since they're "negative" (not really... but) experiences.

    But most of the quality of life fixes and minor bugs aren't coming from those. You'll never hear a power gamer whine so much that he'd quit over the ladder bug, like if it would really break his fun. No, both camp have concern about the game but those are simply not the same ones or oriented toward the same part of the game (if that makes any sense).

    Most of the times, the complaints that people come up with are not rational because they haven't really found what exactly did make them unhappy. And since they don't know but they are ****ed off about, anything will do. I'd push this as far as saying a complaint from a casual about a minor quality fix actually means he doesn't really enjoy the game for real, but who am I to judge. On the other end though, a complaint about how end game is lacking reflects the opposite (in my opinion) because it comes from someone who actually still enjoys the game so much (or is addicted, your pick) that he is even willing to waste time complaining. And I can't remember the last time I actually took the 1 hour phone service for a credit about something I didn't really care about. Forum whining is about the same as that... though the product is still working.

    All that said, this thread is about how the vision isn't the same and I will keep saying that the casuals are the worse when it comes to not understanding the whole thing. It sometimes ressemble to reversed-ego like in "Lol gaming is such a waste of time (but I play MMOs), they're such idiots... if they're good they must have no life". This is not how you think when you are rational for real.

    Edit: If it's not fun, it's addiction. That works for everyone.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 06-20-2014 at 02:28 AM.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

    ...And then there was silence

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