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  1. #1
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    Default Assistance with deciding on a build

    Alright, so I've played a little DDO over the years, but I've never got in depth with character planning, never came anywhere near endgame, and at the end of the day, I really don't know a whole lot about how everything fits together.

    I want one of three things. Either a ranger/rogue that focuses on melee combat and traps, a ranger/rogue that focuses on ranged and traps, or a wizard / rogue that focuses on spells and traps.

    I would be happy with any of those three choices, but I just want someone to explain to me, in the simplest way possible, what I would choose for my basic stats and why, with a 32 point build.

    I've read a billion other peoples builds, and everyone suggests different things for different reasons, and I see good/bad things about just about everything, which ultimately leads me to go in a never ending circle trying to decide on one set path.

    Give me something that lets me fight competently and lets me disarm AND find the majority of traps (even if I have to buy those +spot, +search, etc. items to compensate for a low wisdom or whatever. Just explain why I'm choosing the stats that I am very simply so I can go from there.

    Thanks a million in advance (:

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krimleingod View Post
    Give me something that lets me fight competently and lets me disarm AND find the majority of traps (even if I have to buy those +spot, +search, etc. items to compensate for a low wisdom or whatever. Just explain why I'm choosing the stats that I am very simply so I can go from there.
    The main limitation with trapping in the game is not wisdom but intelligence. Search is the sine qua non of trapping--if you can't find it, you can't disarm it, and it's a flat check. No roll involved, and no re-roll if you rolled poorly. With Disable you have some leeway . . . you only blow the trap up if you fail by 5 or more. So as long as you can get within 5 of the DC (and tools can give you an additional +7 over standard items), you're golden. Search is all or nothing.

    If you want to do the MAJORITY of traps you're going to be getting the best + items you can find AND going after the much rarer STACKING + items to go with them. And enhancements. And buffs. And boosts. Trapping doesn't joke around in this game. DC's get high fast.

    18 wizard/2 rogue isn't a bad combo for trapping simply because you can stack int to the sky and not worry about it too much. Usually when I build a wizard like this my stats look like this:

    STR 8
    DEX 8
    CON 18
    INT 18
    WIS 8
    CHA 8

    That's what a 32 point wizard/rogue build looks like. Ranger/Rogue should probably look more like this:

    STR 15
    DEX 14
    CON 16
    INT 14
    WIS 10
    CHA 8

    Although you can drop dex for strength or vice-versa depending on how you like it. The big advantage of ranger is that you get some feats with a rather high required dexterity for free. That and you get camouflage and pass without trace which makes the whole sneaking bit easier.

  3. #3

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    See the tempest trapmonkey and pale trapper builds linked in my signature for some basic templates.

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    Thanks for the advice to the both of you, very helpful.

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    Now, as a side note, I'll be playing with my lady who is going Druid.

    She doesn't have the patience to really put in the effort I am in trying to find the right build, so I really have no idea what she's going to end up doing with it. But I think she's going to be putting an emphasis on spells and wisdom (i think?).

    So, would either of you recommend one way or the other, on whether or not I should go with the 1fighter/1rogue/18ranger or the 18wizard/2rogue? And if so, is there any particular reason?

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    Since she's going to be a caster. Druid, she will actually be able to solo the vast majority of heroic content by virtue of her SLA's alone. Gives you a lot more leeway with a build plan.

    The classic 18/2 wizzy is never a bad choice, but do you plan on getting any stat tomes? Archers would be powerful in the endgame if you plan on doing EE content, and you should be able to get max ranks into. Trapping with only a 1-2 dip into rogue.

    There's quite a bit of variance possible based on your endgame goals as well as gear and tome availability. So I guess the question is are you going into epics? Do you plan on TR'ing? Do you want to be EE viable? Or just planning to stick to EH?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krimleingod View Post
    Now, as a side note, I'll be playing with my lady who is going Druid.

    She doesn't have the patience to really put in the effort I am in trying to find the right build, so I really have no idea what she's going to end up doing with it. But I think she's going to be putting an emphasis on spells and wisdom (i think?).

    So, would either of you recommend one way or the other, on whether or not I should go with the 1fighter/1rogue/18ranger or the 18wizard/2rogue? And if so, is there any particular reason?
    For teaming with a caster druid, of those two I'd probably recommend the Tempest Trapmonkey.

    Because, then you have both a caster with both offensive and healing capability, and a melee/ranged/trapper. You'd only be short a bard from an Official D&D Fully Balanced Party (tm) ;-) Oh, and there's even a flavor bonus of all wilderness-oriented characters...

    Also, caster is sort of natural to stand a step or two behind to protect the trapper. And also you can both heal each other when you get to that point and run into heavy trouble - a Palemaster in undead form can't heal a druid and also can't be healed by a druid either, I believe...
    Last edited by mna; 06-18-2014 at 09:12 AM.
    No longer completely f2p as of November 2014. Father of 3 more DDO players so far (I do have more children than that).
    Away from the game most of 2015 & 2016.

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    Interesting, very good advice, I was leaning towards the tempest trapmonkey anyway, so that works out really well.

    @ironegrip - It's good to know that her being a druid will grant us leeway on what I do, but as for everything else you said, I have no idea what SLA, EE, EH or Epics are, I'm just trying to get something going that will not result in me rerolling 50 times due to little mistakes here and there. We plan on duo'ing as much of the game as possible, neither of us really like grouping with randoms, we like just chilling, moving at our own pace and most of all, we want to experience as much content as possible without people who have already done the dungeons speed running us through it. We want to do dungeons for the first time either on our own, or with other people that are also doing it their first time, and since finding that is like a needle in a haystack, we're aiming for just the two of us tackling everything.

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    Ah, SLA’s stand for spell-like abilities. As a caster druid, when she spends her action points as she’s leveling up, she’ll see these in her enhancement trees. She should pick these up, and spend her feats on metamagic feats such as empower spell, maximize spell, quicken spell etc… basically, she will be able to modify her spells to hit harder, faster, without costing more spell points like normal spells, and the SLA’s that druids get are fairly powerful, allowing a decent caster druid to nuke most clusters of enemy mobs.

    As for EE/EH etc. Those refer to epic content, which is past level 20. EE (Epic Elite) mobs hit notoriously hard, and EH (Epic Hard) is just a bit more difficult than normal. But none of this is relevant if you plan to true reincarnate at level 20. However, if you plan on playing all the way to level 28, and experiencing epic content, then I would plan for it.

    I also spoke about tomes, which are permanent buffs to your 6 starting stats. They’re different than regular items in that they can affect which feats you’re eligible for, and will last through reincarnations. Many builds take into account the availability of tomes when structuring their level splits. In the case of a multiclass trapper, tomes can be helpful in laying out a build plan so you have a usable search + disable while not sacrificing unneeded levels.

    Hope that was helpful, and just ask if you have any questions.

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    Ah, thanks for explaining all of that, clears a lot up actually.

    As for tomes and all of that, I can imagine that they're really helpful. My problem however is I don't have a lot of experience playing the game, so I'm not good at predicting what skills are going to be useful, when I can get them, and how increasing one stat will effect all of my future choices. I'm just not educated enough on the topic to really create a detailed plan from beginning to end, so the most I could really hope to do is follow one of these basic templates and hope for the best.

    The paradox for me is, I don't play to grind or power game. I play for the thrill of doing each adventure zone on elite for the first time. For most people, they're alright with playing on easy mode, walking over all of the traps, memorizing their locations, and then re-doing it on elite difficulty knowing exactly where to search and all that. I'm more of an RP'er at heart, I want to play elite from the beginning, tackle the dungeons slowly, cautiously, and not die to every single trap learning where they are.

    If I beat the entire game on a gimped character, the adventure part of the game feels like it's over for me, and I'm probably not going to bother going back to do it all again once I know everything that I need to know right now to make that ideal character.

    It's quite troublesome to be honest ahaha.

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    There’s nothing wrong with that, but you may find that as you level, first time on Elite runs will be tough, especially if you’re soloing or two-manning mostly. Knowing this then, ranger would be a great class to choose, it has access to multiple styles of combat, free combat feats, and usable self-healing to keep yourself up. It even gets access to evasion at 9th level, and has a nice RP synergy with your druid lady.

    A 2 level dip into rogue should be more than sufficient for full ranks into trapping skills, given a decent starting intelligence. The next question would be do you want a str-based toon or a dex-based one? A strength-based character is fairly straightforward. A dex-based one would require certain races or multiclasses, but can be more survivable and require less intense stat point splitting. And do you have access to monk? Monks add a lot of survivability to most classes, and allows for some interesting build options.

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    Of course, the simplest option is just an 18/2 or an 18/1/1 split.

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    Yes, we're both VIP subscribers as of last night, so I have monk unlocked and we both used points to unlock the 32 point build. As for the class(es) I choose, right now I only have two solid templates that were recommended to me in this thread, the 18ranger/1fighter/1rogue and the 18wizard/2rogue, and I'm heavily leaning towards the 18ranger/1fighter/1rogue. However, if I throw 2rogue or a monk into there, I have no idea how it's going to affect the overall template, and I don't know enough to restructure the template to incorporate those class variations into it. I have heard that a level of monk can be really beneficial though.

    As for choosing strength or dex, I'm really not sure which way to go. Dexterity always made sense to me, because if I'm a ranger, I can utilize both dual weapon fighting and ranged weapons like bows, and unless I'm mistaken, dexterity governs dual weapon fighting, accuracy and/or damage with ranged weapons, and it also adds to my armor class. Strength might benefit ranged weapons too, but I don't know how all of that works. I don't even know if the template is made primarily for melee and whether or not I should even worry about ranged. But the template recommends 18 str / 12 dex / 14 con / 14 int / 8 wis / 8 charisma when using a 32 point build, so I'm assuming it's leaning towards strength for some reason.

    I honestly don't know though, too many damn things to factor in when doing this ahaha. I don't understand why intelligence doesn't get boosted to 16 or even 18 due to how important it is in relation to accumulating skill points and disabling traps, but I guess improving it that high would take away so much from the other attributes that it wouldn't be worth it. But I don't see how improving strength to 18 is more beneficial than intelligence to 18.

    In any case, all I know is I have to decide on something soon, or my lady is going to kill me when she wakes up if I'm still running around in circles ahaha.
    Last edited by Krimleingod; 06-18-2014 at 10:59 AM.

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    Hmm, I would definitely not do a str 18, as that’s 16 points of the 32 that you have to spend. I suggest a third class mostly because many classes in DDO are frontloaded with benefits. For a ranger, the bulk of your benefits come in at ranger levels 2, 6, and 11. Lvls 12-18 do not add quite as much to your character. By level 11, you have the full set of TWF (two-weapon fighting) and bow feats already, as well as a decent self heal and evasion.

    Evasion requires light to no armor, and a usable reflex save. With only 12 Dex, your reflex save will fail too often for evasion to be reliable. I would say a Dex-based elf ranger build with 6 or so levels of monk would suit you well. As an elf, your enhancements will allow you to use dexterity as your damage modifier for longbows and longswords, meaning you can invest the bare minimum into strength. Monk stances will add survivability and damage, and even movement speed, which you’ll quickly learn to love. Something like a 12ranger/6monk/2rogue or 11ranger/6monk/3rogue would be solid choices. Not to mention they’ll scale well into epics if you choose to go that far.

    I’m more than happy to actually build it for you if you’re interested. Just let me know, I can probably do it later today even. Just remember, no matter which split, your first level should be rogue to maximize the skill points.

    For the elf dex-build:

    13 str
    17 dex
    14 con
    12 int
    13 wis
    8 cha

    13 str and 13 wis are required for Power attack and zen archery, 2 feats that are critical. If you have some tomes later on or readily available, those can be lowered for a bit more dexterity.

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    Interesting, and you believe 12 intelligence would be enough to still handle the majority of traps in the game?

    By all means though, if you think you can make me a custom build for what I'm looking for, you would have my utmost gratitude for it, but don't inconvenience yourself too much, I can always go with a basic template if I have to. I'm definitely open to the idea of the ranger/monk/rogue though, if you believe it is a viable option for finding and disabling the majority of traps on elite while maintaining my ability to be a capable combatant.

    Whether you take the time to make that custom build for me or not though, I really appreciate all the advice (: If you do decide to make it for me, I'll get my rl sword and board ready to fend off my lady once she wakes up and wants to play to buy us some time for you to do that ahaha.

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    I’ve played a ranger/monk/artificer, which in essence is the same thing. It traded a little less skill points for some spell points and access to the elemental weapon buff. I did have more stat points to spend though, as well as full sets of tomes. I’ll build it when I get home in a few hours and post it here, if you happen to be on Ghallanda I can also answer questions in game. I just have to make sure of the level order and feat order.

    Also, forgot to mention, but dexterity only governs ranged to-hit bonuses, and two-weapon feats. However, as you get your two-weapon fighting feats for free as a ranger, it’s not all that critical. More important is its benefit towards your reflex save. As anyone will tell you, the ability to take no damage from traps and all Area of Effect spells 95% of the time is extremely important.

    Since you will be trapping, you will probably be running into traps before your partner nearly all of the time as well, and that means a good reflex save is the difference between living and dying. Also, dexterity is the key stat for open lock, which as a trapper you will most assuredly be doing.

    The final question would be do you prefer heavier melee or heavier ranged? This will affect the layout of the enhancement tree. Melee is more viable in most heroic content, but if you go fully into the ranged tree and get slayer arrows, that will quickly become your go-to burst DPS. A manyshot with slayer arrows usually means instant death to everything in heroics content, add in epic destiny shenanigans such as Furyshots, and it kills most mobs period. This part is not set in stone, as you can freely respect your enhancements for plat, but just something to keep in mind.

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    Aha sounds good, I'll wait for you to get home so we can do that then, better off taking my time and getting it right the first time than rushing and falling on my face. And that's interesting about dexterity, I didn't realize its primary purpose was for the reflex save. With items that grant me +spot and all of that though, shouldn't I be detecting these traps before I fall onto them or is it not really feasible when multi classing to be able to cover that as well?

    Normally in games I play melee, whether it's sword & board, dual wielding or two handers, that's usually always the route I go. However, being able to utilize ranged weapons for when enemies are too strong to confront in melee, or when they're on a different altitude that I can't reach, or if I just need to thin the numbers or take down that dangerous monster in the pack before charging in, having the ranged option for those situations is always a welcome addition. But I'm honestly open to going either way, I could go pure range if it worked out better that way, but then we wouldn't have a "tank" more or less. I'll leave that up to your discretion when you make the build though.

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    Hmm, to be honest, I didn’t even consider spot as I was thinking of the build. When you’ve run through the game enough you kind of know where every trap box is. For trapping, there’s a few things you should know:

    Intelligence governs your search and your disable device, which are the two key trapping abilities. More int is always better, but in a non-intelligence based character, devoting too much to it will mean less survivability or damage. Typically, you want enough intelligence to get additional skill points for trapping. Monks get 4 skill points per level, plus their intelligence modifier. Rangers get 6, and rogues get 8. This means that you should be able to reliably maximize your trapping skills with a 12 int.

    Something to keep in mind when you’re looking to gear up:

    Because you’re not a full trapper, you will always want the highest tier search/spot/disable/open lock items available. You should carry an extra intelligence item with you that you can swap in when trapping, and a full set of trapping gear. This is probably not going to be what you’re wearing all the time, but put it on your hotbar, and swap it in when you need to disable or open lock, and swap it out when you’re done. You’ll also want to carry the highest thieves tools available as well, as they also add a bonus to your disabling and opening lock.

    Spot is actually a wisdom skill, and thankfully it’s not a dump stat in this build, I think with 3 levels of rogue you could get a usable spot as well, I’ll look into maximizing that when I build it.

    To further supplement these skills, you can pick up heroism potions or rare items that have clickies of greater heroism. These add +2/+4 to all skills, and can be the difference between success and failure. If you had a bit more wiggle room, I would pick up UMD (use magic device), which is the grand-daddy of all skills, but you should be fine in any case.

    The reason evasion and reflex save is so important, traps aside, is because many many spells have reflex saves. With evasion, any successful save means you take no damage from the effect. Moreover, there are traps whose trap-boxes are past the traps themselves, so unless you have perfect timing, you will get hit. In elite, traps typically can one-shot a character. Of the three saves (fort, ref, will), reflex is probably the one that is used the most. Many buffs can help negate effects that target your will and fortitude saves, such as holds, paralysis, posions, death spells, but reflex saves are critical in just about every single quest in the game.

    In fact, if you look at all the builds out there, most splash 2 levels of rogue or monk purely for the evasion.

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    Hmm, so basically what you're saying is, with this build, I'm going to need 2 sets, one is my combat set, and one is my trap set, and I'm going to have to upgrade the trap set very regularly so that it always has the highest stats I can use, and if that's true, how do I know when I need to upgrade, is it every level, or every 5 levels, or how does that work? And also, you're saying I'm just going to max out my saves so that I can run into traps, not die, then search and disable them without having to invest the points into spot.

    Now if all of the above holds true, if my lady is a druid with 18 wisdom, and she maxes spot each time she levels up, could she not lead us so that she stumbles onto the traps and see's them before we trigger them, and then i could disarm them with my intelligence, or would that not be a viable strategy?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironegrip View Post
    In fact, if you look at all the builds out there, most splash 2 levels of rogue or monk purely for the evasion.
    ... the noticeable exception being rangers, who get evasion natively.

    I would recommend a higher Int (14 to 16) for a first-life trapper, if only to slightly offset the difficulty of finding good +search and +disable gear for your level nowadays. Skill points are a nice bonus to that, of course. Maybe 15 base + first level-up stat point?

    The only relevant thing a "full" trapper gets over a 18 ranger / 1 rogue / 1 other is Skill Mastery feats if rogue, not sure what artificers get. And a ranger/rogue can take +3 more search/spot than a pure rogue, from enhancements.

    EllisDee37's current Tempest Trapmonkey build gets maxed trap skills including Spot, and also Concentration, Heal and UMD. It's 14 Int, and Human for the racial +1 skill point per level.

    There's also some places where you want to have someone in your party hit 20 Int for runes and such, and 14 and a +6 Int item gets you that.
    No longer completely f2p as of November 2014. Father of 3 more DDO players so far (I do have more children than that).
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