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  1. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Ummm…High Road and Gianthold being successes? They are basically THE SAME FRICKIN’ QUESTS AS HEROIC WITH STUPID CHANGES TO THE STORY LINES! Aside from the raid, which is as boring as sin, there’s nothing changed…at all. You call this “new content?”
    While I'm not sure I'd call High Road a "success", it was not epified. It was originally released as an epic-only pack, and at the time it was endgame. Several releases later they added a heroic version to it.

  2. #142
    Community Member Grimlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikojin View Post
    It is funny people complain that epicfied content is not good enough, yet clamor at the idea of old content getting epicfied.

    I think it would be awesome if every update was either new content or epicfied content. However they don't make enough money to have a team that could do that. So instead every other update, we get content. Sometimes it is epicfied, sometimes it is new. And I don't feel each new piece of epic content has to be max level.

    Looking at the bigger picture, level 30 content will be anything that is level 15 or higher on heroic. So what level 15+ content would be awesome as epic? I see quite a bit they could epicfy and it would be awesome.

    However, it all relies on that level cap being out and set in stone. With that, they won't have to push to higher levels for players.
    The whole point here is Turbine wasting time and resources on pointless content that is old hat instead of developing new content at end game. This is Gianthold all over again. It shows laziness on the development team that they do not dedicate themselves to fleshing out fresh content instead of using a standard multiplier to increase the AC, hit points, and durability of the enemies in an area that has been a sinkhole of development time and cost Turbine revenue due to no one playing it. It's a cheapskate move indicating a lack of interest in developing new content.
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  3. #143
    Community Member Grimlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    What about Shadowfall?
    I don't like this either - the "shadow zones" are incredibly difficult to see - worse than the Underdark with no goggles in some cases.
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  4. #144
    Community Member Purkilius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moo_cow View Post
    Tiered loot chains

    Stormhorns : 3 good items, 8 completely worthless pieces of garbage
    Wheloon : 1 good item, the rest are garbage
    Study in sable : garbage loot
    Brothers of the forge : garbage loot
    High road : 3 good items, rest garbage
    Gianthold : 11 good items, rest are trash
    This is so true^^

    The real endgame feeling and loot frenzy for me was when cap was 25 and epic gianthold came out, there were so many items you wanted to have and I think that is the main frustration of endgame players right now is that the latest expansion had 4 good items....

    3BC is ok, at least there are about the same number of good items as the latest expansion lol

    I think getting all worked up over 3BC is nonsense the real update was guilds and ships.

    There are a lot of people leaving atm but if Turbine could cater a real juicy endgame for us then many will come back.
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  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimlock View Post
    The whole point here is Turbine wasting time and resources on pointless content that is old hat instead of developing new content at end game. This is Gianthold all over again. It shows laziness on the development team that they do not dedicate themselves to fleshing out fresh content instead of using a standard multiplier to increase the AC, hit points, and durability of the enemies in an area that has been a sinkhole of development time and cost Turbine revenue due to no one playing it. It's a cheapskate move indicating a lack of interest in developing new content.
    have you played the new content, or are you just complaining?

    So far I've only played 3 of the new quests(been working on my swashbuckler), but I ran each of those quests on heroic and epic within 24 hours. And most of them had:
    • completely different mobs (bosses included)
    • different dungeon path
    • different objectives
    • different story
    • different loot

    The wilderness area has
    • different spawn locations
    • different mobs
    • different explorers
    • different rares
    • different loot
    • an entirely new fight-event(airships)


    We're comparing this to gianthold, which had EXACT same mobs, EXACT same storyline, EXACT same quest path/objectives, EXACT same loot(only epified).

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Wow... yeah It's pretty much behavoral science 101 (not to mention game theory 101) to reward harder more time consuming tasks that have a risk of completely failing better than you reward easier less time consuming tasks that has little risk of failure.

    A segment of the current generation doesn't seem to understand this, due to modifications in the education system that have removed or marginalized competition, and rewarded poor performance the same as good performance. So there are people who just aren't wired to understand risk/reward.

    Sadly this seems to be the fantasy land that modern civilization is heading toward, a little HG Wellsian, Eloi-esk if you ask me.

    In the framework of a game it's semi-harmless (if nonsensical) it just makes the game worse for the segment that wants to be enticed to more risk. The problem is that some people (probably the vast majority of players playing a game regularly) want to be motivated to see whats around the next corner. Or to face a stiffer challenge. Only a rare introspective gamer favors challenge as it's own reward... Even those of us who are not consciously aware of it are improving our characters for the next big challenge. So when you have a game that literally gives the same rewards to easy as it does to hard you end up boring the average gamers into leaving, because after if the the reward for breezing through casual is the same as elite, then whats the point of improving the character for future challenges?

    I think these things are all pretty self evident... after all how many Perma death players do you know? Me either... Challenge for it own sake is nice for maybe 1% of gamers. The rest of us want the skinners box to have a tidbit of reward at the end, and the longer or harder the skinners box the better the rewards must be.

    What DDO faces is an epidemic of people who feel entitled to get rewards for least effort and least risk of failure that are identical to rewards for the most risk of failure. This is of course a basic self serving cognitive dissonance "I want therefore I should get"... this mentality is also very prevalent in children.
    Great post!


    I believe the whiny sense of entitlement many posters here on the forums exhibit/exhibited contributed to the lame monty haul loot system that for me personally partly ruined the fun of the game

  7. #147
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Wow... yeah It's pretty much behavoral science 101 (not to mention game theory 101) to reward harder more time consuming tasks that have a risk of completely failing better than you reward easier less time consuming tasks that has little risk of failure.

    A segment of the current generation doesn't seem to understand this, due to modifications in the education system that have removed or marginalized competition, and rewarded poor performance the same as good performance. So there are people who just aren't wired to understand risk/reward.

    Sadly this seems to be the fantasy land that modern civilization is heading toward, a little HG Wellsian, Eloi-esk if you ask me.

    In the framework of a game it's semi-harmless (if nonsensical) it just makes the game worse for the segment that wants to be enticed to more risk. The problem is that some people (probably the vast majority of players playing a game regularly) want to be motivated to see whats around the next corner. Or to face a stiffer challenge. Only a rare introspective gamer favors challenge as it's own reward... Even those of us who are not consciously aware of it are improving our characters for the next big challenge. So when you have a game that literally gives the same rewards to easy as it does to hard you end up boring the average gamers into leaving, because after if the the reward for breezing through casual is the same as elite, then whats the point of improving the character for future challenges?

    I think these things are all pretty self evident... after all how many Perma death players do you know? Me either... Challenge for it own sake is nice for maybe 1% of gamers. The rest of us want the skinners box to have a tidbit of reward at the end, and the longer or harder the skinners box the better the rewards must be.

    What DDO faces is an epidemic of people who feel entitled to get rewards for least effort and least risk of failure that are identical to rewards for the most risk of failure. This is of course a basic self serving cognitive dissonance "I want therefore I should get"... this mentality is also very prevalent in children.
    I agree, but I dont see how one can post as such, and then support full on buying the same level of character power one can attain in game, through the store. Its the same mentality, with the one semantic change of money changing hands. Let someone else farm it, and take all the "risk" and the end user just buys it. The same level of boredom sets in due to easy loot acquisition. This is why I am glad that they made the 3bc items account bound. Someone has to go get them if they want them, even if its not on the same character they will use it on.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by grandeibra View Post
    Great post!


    I believe the whiny sense of entitlement many posters here on the forums exhibit/exhibited contributed to the lame monty haul loot system that for me personally partly ruined the fun of the game
    I'm just glad they are in the minority. The best indicator of e3BC's success, imo, is there are far more people running the quests than there are posting about them on the forum.
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  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I agree, but I dont see how one can post as such, and then support full on buying the same level of character power one can attain in game, through the store. Its the same mentality, with the one semantic change of money changing hands. Let someone else farm it, and take all the "risk" and the end user just buys it. The same level of boredom sets in due to easy loot acquisition. This is why I am glad that they made the 3bc items account bound. Someone has to go get them if they want them, even if its not on the same character they will use it on.
    I think having some stuff BtA and other stuff unbound both is good. Something for the alts, and something for the economy.
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  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    I'm just glad they are in the minority. The best indicator of e3BC's success, imo, is there are far more people running the quests than there are posting about them on the forum.
    It's pretty dead now after people got the loot they wanted and only a few items are interesting.
    I wouldn't call this update a success. Like others said it's more of a guild update.

  11. #151
    Community Member merridyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post
    It's pretty dead now after people got the loot they wanted and only a few items are interesting.
    I wouldn't call this update a success. Like others said it's more of a guild update.
    Pretty much this, ran in killed 4 names did 1 quest, got 4 named loot items (none of them useful). The quest still felt like the original crappy quest. Logged off and haven't been on since. Guess it's time to wait for the next update. My subscription was cancelled a month ago and expires in a couple of weeks, hopefully the next update will bring more fun and better loot that makes me want to resubscribe.

  12. #152
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Wow... yeah It's pretty much behavoral science 101 (not to mention game theory 101) to reward harder more time consuming tasks that have a risk of completely failing better than you reward easier less time consuming tasks that has little risk of failure.

    A segment of the current generation doesn't seem to understand this, due to modifications in the education system that have removed or marginalized competition, and rewarded poor performance the same as good performance. So there are people who just aren't wired to understand risk/reward.
    Rewards don't work for tasks that require cognition. Good educators shouldn't be relying on rewards regardless of whether the students perform well or not.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

    Rewards do work fine for relatively non-thinking mechanical tasks like playing video games.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Sadly this seems to be the fantasy land that modern civilization is heading toward, a little HG Wellsian, Eloi-esk if you ask me.
    The fantasy land that modern civilization is heading toward is one in which people delude themselves into thinking that virtual accomplishments are as important as real accomplishments, and they surround themselves with people who also live in that same small bubble to complete the illusion.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 06-16-2014 at 05:37 PM.

  13. #153
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    I'm just glad they are in the minority. The best indicator of e3BC's success, imo, is there are far more people running the quests than there are posting about them on the forum.
    ^This^ I see several LFMs for E3BC, as well as postings in guild & channel during any given play session.

    Another perk of the BTA loot: we've yet to get more BTC storage. If they can't add more BTC storage, I would prefer they don't add more BTC loot. Personally, I couldn't care less about the economy. I log in to a fantasy game to kill **** and play fantasy characters, not for the tycoon experience. IMO "filler" or "dofer" loot belongs on the AHs, not the named stuff you really want to top out your character(s).

    Ofc, ymmv...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  14. #154
    Community Member vampiregoat69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    I ran through this newly epified series once on release day, and I have zero desire to ever return. There's simply no reason to do this worthless content.

    This contains all the attributes of a failed quest series with zero longevity. I barely even see LFM's up for it, if that's any indicator at all.

    Does anyone else notice this pack getting similar treatment on your servers/grouping circles?
    I have never liked it and when they said they were going to make is epic I laughed so hard I passed out. I really thought it was some sort of bad joke like a titan kobold or something. Nice practical joke turbine now get rid of it

  15. #155
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    It’s interesting your response to someone on what constitutes a “good” or a “failed” set of quests…in that you didn’t really answer the question.

    The real answer is: it is all subjective.
    You can read my posts in this thread and my feedback on lamannia if you want some "answer". I try not to reverse enginner any of my arguments. Why would I? I would have loved to enjoy 3bc, what incentive do I have to not like it? You aren't making any sense right off the bat. But, lets continue...

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I’m a guy who likes 3BC. The quests are different. Prove Your Worth is pretty interesting as far as puzzles and traps. The other quests have a distinct “Tomb Raider” feel to them that’s more like actual D&D than some of the other stuff (in my opinion). And with the modifications they made, they made the quests new without really changing them per se or epic.
    Ok...so you like it. You're entitled to this opinion, just as I am to mine - even though I happen to completely disagree with everything you said here. The quests were amazingly boring, easy, quick, and unrewarding with mediocre bound gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Even my group likes running 3BC. We regularly run it every TR cycle. It is a cool pack. It is unfortunate that a lot of people don’t see it that way. I think a lot of that has to do with the loot (though I did pull that shaman staff, and that’s helping me quite a bit in my leveling scheme right now). The XP is decent. The stories and the quests are fun to run. I don’t get why your opinion of them is that they are “poor.” To each their own, I guess. I’m willing to leave it at that.
    I don't remember the last time I was below level 15, let alone run 3bc. XP is decent? Are you kidding? Factor in the time it takes to just run there on heroic.



    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Ummm…High Road and Gianthold being successes? They are basically THE SAME FRICKIN’ QUESTS AS HEROIC WITH STUPID CHANGES TO THE STORY LINES! Aside from the raid, which is as boring as sin, there’s nothing changed…at all. You call this “new content?”
    So, you're saying that epic gianthold wasn't a success? Lol, do you know what the word success means?

    And...high road is the same as heroic? Well, high road was released as a new epic adventure pack so this doesn't make much sense.

    Story line? Ha! We still care about story line? That is the most inconsistent aspect of any update with longevity. You learn the story once, and you get it. What, you keep re-reading the dialogue everytime you talk to an NPC to get more "story" out of it? Who cares, give me practical stuff - and GH/High Road certainly gave us practical stuff since its release.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    People run the snot out of GH and Vale while leveling. By the time I get to epic, I don’t want to be bored with the same stupid quests again. Yet that’s what eGH is : the same stupid quests. Almost the EXACT same. I’ve run GH so much, I want to scratch my eyes out every time I have to go back there again.
    So, both you and I ran GH ad nauseum. Except only YOU ran 3bc repeatedly.

    Which content appealed to the larger audience, you tell me

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    What you got with 3BC were the same quests, with modified terrain, dramatically different mobs, a different story-line…essentially new frickin’ content. And then you have the audacity to say that there is nothing new here? Did you actually *run* the quests, or are you coming here and spewing **** to look like the smartest people in the room?
    Your dramatically different mobs, modified terrain, and story line lasted me about 1.5 hours.

    And all your NEW stuff contains re-hashed assassins chains, an IDENTICAL explorer area with a few rares and boring High HP airships in the sky - "Hey, lets pew pew this statue of hitpoints up in the air over there!", and not even all the quests were epified (lave caves anyone?). If you're going to evaluate the content, you better do it fairly - and not bias your evidence by only mentioning the things that are different. A lot of things were rehashed too.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Now the whole “not fun” thing is subjective – I think everybody can agree on that. However, no one here can easily define why they are “not fun” which only leads me to conclude that your only reason to dislike 3BC is because…you dislike 3BC. There is nothing in those quests that you don’t do anywhere else; including GH and High Road. You can’t say it is not “new content” when the stuff you say you like is basically re-hashed heroic content (which e3BC is not, at all). Which only leaves me to conclude that your true motivations are to whine for no express purpose other than to whine.
    Wrong. High road was OBVIOUSLY new content. There was never a heroic version of it before it was released. Sir, this isn't a hard point lol

    With GH, yes a lot of the quests were identical - but the part that made it successful was the LOOT, XP, and CHALLENGE it provided. In fact, I STILL wear some of that loot 16 months later! I won't even pick up a single 3bc item. That's what I think about your "new" 3bc pack. The only time I had anything close to fun in that pack was slaughtering mass amounts of yuan ti.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    If you don’t like the pack, don’t run it. The criticisms on the loot may be justified – on that I’m not 100% sure. But don’t lecture the rest of us about what is “fun” or what is “new,” because half of what you suggest is neither, frankly.
    Oh don't worry, I'm pretty sure about the loot =D

    Nevertheless, the one who adopted the lecturing tone here might be you I'm afraid. I merely state honest, and objective feedback. As I've said, I didn't pre-decide to not like the pack. I would've loved to enjoy this, gain reward, and have a new arsenal of quests to run for fun. But, it is complete drivel that virtually ELIMINATES the end-game population as its audience.

    Its also funny how you completely ignored my mention of stormhorns, and for some reason only focused on gh and high road.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Not everyone wants to zerg through a quest to farm loot. Some of us actually play this game to be entertained.
    I'm happy that you're happy, but zerging is pretty damn entertaining =D
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  16. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    So, both you and I ran GH ad nauseum. Except only YOU ran 3bc repeatedly.

    Which content appealed to the larger audience, you tell me
    Ha! Nicely done.

  17. #157
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    The problem, Cetus, is that you and others are framing this as not subjective but objective. The way these should be written is as a personal diary post where you proclaim your likes and dislikes, and people that care about "What's Up In The Mind Of Cetus" can read and follow along on your daily adventures.

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    The decision defies logic. Let's poll which one is the least played pack. Now let's make an epic version of the least played quest catered to mid epic levels. Oh and make the loot mediocre.

    Epicfy something like the Amarath quest and loot and now we are talking.
    The reality is that top end equipment needs to be a hard/long grind. Make it easy then once you get it, done. Stop just catering to the newbie/casual crowd. Need one hard pack for the old timers/ cap players.

    At this rate Turbine will just alienate the old timers and the casual players get bored and move on anyway.

  19. #159
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    The problem, Cetus, is that you and others are framing this as not subjective but objective. The way these should be written is as a personal diary post where you proclaim your likes and dislikes, and people that care about "What's Up In The Mind Of Cetus" can read and follow along on your daily adventures.
    What do you mean I'm "framing it" as not subjective? I'm obviously expressing an opinion - but I try to provide some kind of basis for it. I'm not just willy nilly yelling " Ahhh, this stinks!"

    My first impressions for previous content went differently:

    EE Temple
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...lenging-update

    Stormhorns:
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...he-Storm-Horns!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post
    Stop just catering to the newbie/casual crowd. Need one hard pack for the old timers/ cap players.
    Isn't that what Stormhorn's and the two new raids are for?

    What was the last content aimed at casuals before e3BC?

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