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  1. #21
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreataxeUser View Post
    1 Print "It is not a shock to me that they did not think about this!"
    3 a = alarm
    4 a = b

    5 If b = a then goto 10
    10 goto 10 // Tunnel vision since beta.
    20 Get cake
    30 End.
    Fixed and updated for you.

  2. #22
    Community Member TempestAlphaOmega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MangLord View Post
    I think it's fair, and prevents blatant exploitation of game mechanics. Other than that, if you have enough feats to spend on two different fighting styles, you're probably not spending your feats wisely. Even a fighter has more than enough options to never dabble in another fighting style.
    Ah yes the "if you are not doing it the way I believe is most efficient, you are doing it wrong" line of thought.

    DDO is a game that allows people flexability to pursue all sorts of "crazy" builds.

    I fail to see why they had to lock them out. TWF requires a weapon in each hand to get the benefits and SWF requires that you NOT have a weapon in both hands or a TH weapoin equiped. Was there some crossover between SWF and TWF that I missed? Orbs are counted as shields right? Rune Arms are not counted as an offhand weapon for TWF right? Seriously if I missed something please let me know. If this has something to do with animal forms and SWF why would they just not code it so that no benefit can be gained from SWF while in animal form?
    Shapshap, League of Extraordinary Ham, Sarlona and a bunch of alts that all have names begining with Sha or Sho. Of course Shapshap could be the alt and one of the others the main, it just depends on what day it is.

  3. #23
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TempestAlphaOmega View Post
    DDO is a game that allows people flexability to pursue all sorts of "crazy" builds.
    Flexibility doesn't mean "anything goes". Weapon-fighting feats should be mutually exclusive - it just makes logical sense. This is regardless of mechanics.
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

  4. #24
    Community Member Noctus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Weapon-fighting feats should be mutually exclusive - it just makes logical sense. This is regardless of mechanics.
    So if i learn how to fly a Helicopter, i shall never be able to grasp the concept of how to steer a Speedboat? And vice versa?

    Because ... logic?!?
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Flexibility doesn't mean "anything goes". Weapon-fighting feats should be mutually exclusive - it just makes logical sense. This is regardless of mechanics.
    Haha, look up mixed martial arts... believe it or not someone that's grew up wrestling can then learn some thai boxing and incorporate it into their fighting style, totally illogical right?

    And yeah tempAO, crossover in wolf builds, animal forms are considered unarmed so twf applies, you can do it with no offhand weapon so swf applies, AND you can offhand an orb and get shield doublestrike last I checked, however this requires very specific builds and a ton of feats.

  6. #26
    Community Member TempestAlphaOmega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Flexibility doesn't mean "anything goes". Weapon-fighting feats should be mutually exclusive - it just makes logical sense. This is regardless of mechanics.
    I guess those individuals that learn multiple martial arts styles in real life are just being illogical or they are doing it wrong?

    Actually "anything goes" can be real fun. Finding out just how far you can push the crazy and still have it work and be fun is actaully fun for some people. I realize that some individuals who only concern themselves with the perfect EE build might not think so, but they can enjoy the game their way just like eveyone else.
    Shapshap, League of Extraordinary Ham, Sarlona and a bunch of alts that all have names begining with Sha or Sho. Of course Shapshap could be the alt and one of the others the main, it just depends on what day it is.

  7. #27
    Community Manager
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    We will investigate this further. It may be something that was unintentionally left out of the Release Notes (we had THF and SWF mutually exclusive in the notes, but perhaps the actual change included TWF as well and that got missed.)
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  8. #28
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    We will investigate this further. It may be something that was unintentionally left out of the Release Notes (we had THF and SWF mutually exclusive in the notes, but perhaps the actual change included TWF as well and that got missed.)
    I don't see why two-weapon fighting and single-weapon fighting would be mutually exclusive. It's not like you can use both at the same time. :P

  9. #29
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Flexibility doesn't mean "anything goes". Weapon-fighting feats should be mutually exclusive - it just makes logical sense. This is regardless of mechanics.
    Benefits from the weapon-fighting feats should be mutually exclusive, but I think people should be able to *take* all 3 of the style feat categories if they choose. If you're willing to invest in the feats, there's no reason you shouldn't get to benefit from that flexibility.

    The only reason why THF and SWF are mutually exclusive is that Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes would get benefit from both styles simultaneously. There are no situations where a weapon should be able to benefit from both TWF and SWF. (And if there are, then that should be fixed on the Client/Server combat side and not by locking out the feats as mutually exclusive.)


    TL;DR version: Turbine - if you're going to add new features, please don't break stuff in the process. Or at least have the decency to write down what you've broken in your release notes so that we know about it.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Benefits from the weapon-fighting feats should be mutually exclusive, but I think people should be able to *take* all 3 of the style feat categories if they choose. If you're willing to invest in the feats, there's no reason you shouldn't get to benefit from that flexibility.

    The only reason why THF and SWF are mutually exclusive is that Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes would get benefit from both styles simultaneously. There are no situations where a weapon should be able to benefit from both TWF and SWF. (And if there are, then that should be fixed on the Client/Server combat side and not by locking out the feats as mutually exclusive.)
    ... actually, what happens if I have SWF and try to take Ranger levels?

    Just thinking on how to rework my trapbardcher... tentative plan is to take SWF, and later end up with TWF too from Ranger free feats.

    See, 4 levels of Ranger would be nice for Paralyzing Arrows, and easy track to Improved Precise Shot & Manyshot, for a Manyshot-Paralyzing-Coup-de-Grace combo. (And Otto's Whistler/Coup de Grace later on in epics.) Sort of unfortunate I'd have to give up either Inspire Heroics and Inspire Excellence, or Evasion...

    Not going to do that quite yet anyway.
    No longer completely f2p as of November 2014. Father of a few more DDO players.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    For that matter, my TWF pure bard just spent 11 APs on SB, which was enough to add a few pts of Dodge, Blow by Blow, Deflect Arrows, Uncanny Dodge, and Fast Movement (if it's WAI, I'm now as fast as a pure monk).
    My barbarian-splash THF Warchanter runs really fast now, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    It appears Coup de Grace doesn't require Swashbuckling to be active, but I'd need to spend a lot of filler AP to get it.
    I especially like the fact that there's a ranged version of it, for 4-ranger Bardchers and such. (Does it work if the target was paralyzed in the same volley of Manyshot? ... looks like Improved Precise Shot with that would be nice.)

    I'd sort of think going with the SWF/Precision line might make sense even for a bardcher now. Especially as Precision works with longbows, too...
    No longer completely f2p as of November 2014. Father of a few more DDO players.

  12. #32
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    particularly when the SWF feats are so deliciously OP (for now), but it is an option.
    It's only OP for people who don't do or look at existing maths. It is inferior to TWF for single target DPS and the more procs you put on the weapons the more inferior it is.

    So especially when you get to TF weapons where the Developers have decided they wont be making expanded crit profile named weapons any more, the gap widens into not even close land. TWF with Thunder Forged on crit procs or mortal fear 5% proc is strictly superior to SWF. using like weapons.

    Now they may need to buff THF a little bit but SWF is not OP, and IMO only the existence of eSoS has ever made THF even competitive with TWF.

  13. #33
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    I don't see why two-weapon fighting and single-weapon fighting would be mutually exclusive. It's not like you can use both at the same time. :P
    Last time on Lam, you could in some cases.

  14. #34
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    My barbarian-splash THF Warchanter runs really fast now, too.
    Can you tell if SB Fast Movement stacks with barb Fast Movement? Since you can't do monk / barbs, there was never a way to test if their inherent speed bonuses stack. IIRC, in the pre-U19 days, barb Fast Movement stacked with Acro II's run speed bonus, so I'm hoping they do.
    I especially like the fact that there's a ranged version of it, for 4-ranger Bardchers and such. (Does it work if the target was paralyzed in the same volley of Manyshot? ... looks like Improved Precise Shot with that would be nice.)
    Interesting question: I had presumed Coup de Grace was a thrower-only ability, but nope, it just says "ranged atk." Although making an AA without Slaying Arrows feels weird to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Now they may need to buff THF a little bit but SWF is not OP, and IMO only the existence of eSoS has ever made THF even competitive with TWF.
    My view is TWF should have the best single-target DPS, THF should have the best AoE DPS, and SWF should be smack-dab between them for both. And if that's not the case, then they need to be rebalanced accordingly.

    Another advantage to SWF is it has no stat pre-reqs like TWF or THF do. I know vets take 36-pt builds with +5 tomes out the wazoo for granted these days; and thus don't pay a second thought to feat pre-reqs. But for those of humbler means, I'm hoping it'll open up some new possibilities, particularly for melee / caster hybrids since you can equip an orb while SWF.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    It's only OP for people who don't do or look at existing maths. It is inferior to TWF for single target DPS and the more procs you put on the weapons the more inferior it is.

    So especially when you get to TF weapons where the Developers have decided they wont be making expanded crit profile named weapons any more, the gap widens into not even close land. TWF with Thunder Forged on crit procs or mortal fear 5% proc is strictly superior to SWF. using like weapons.
    T3 thunderforged has very limited use though, since you normally ETR or ITR at 28. A SWF balizarde, now that has some use from 23-27.

  16. #36
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Benefits from the weapon-fighting feats should be mutually exclusive, but I think people should be able to *take* all 3 of the style feat categories if they choose. If you're willing to invest in the feats, there's no reason you shouldn't get to benefit from that flexibility.

    The only reason why THF and SWF are mutually exclusive is that Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes would get benefit from both styles simultaneously. There are no situations where a weapon should be able to benefit from both TWF and SWF. (And if there are, then that should be fixed on the Client/Server combat side and not by locking out the feats as mutually exclusive.)


    TL;DR version: Turbine - if you're going to add new features, please don't break stuff in the process. Or at least have the decency to write down what you've broken in your release notes so that we know about it.
    OK yeah, I wasn't paying enough attention, you make complete sense. Taking back what I said about this before.
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

  17. #37
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    After further investigation, this is indeed a deliberate change that did not get called out correctly in the Release Notes. We'll correct this in the notes, but just to put it here: Two Weapon Fighting and Single Weapon Fighting are mutually exclusive, as is Single Weapon Fighting and Two Handed Fighting.
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Can you tell if SB Fast Movement stacks with barb Fast Movement?
    I don't think my eyeball is accurate enough to tell... and I didn't test without striding/speed items yet anyway.

    Is there an established "test track" with known times for base, barbarian and 20-monk?
    No longer completely f2p as of November 2014. Father of a few more DDO players.

  19. #39
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    After further investigation, this is indeed a deliberate change that did not get called out correctly in the Release Notes. We'll correct this in the notes, but just to put it here: Two Weapon Fighting and Single Weapon Fighting are mutually exclusive, as is Single Weapon Fighting and Two Handed Fighting.
    this was debated exhaustively on Lama and was stated sometime before the last and just before last updates as being the case. Although frankly they should allowed to be taken together, and the weapons you have equipped should determine which feats give you advantages (ie if 2H weapon then 2HF feats, if 1H Weapon then SWF feats, if 2 Weapons then 2WF Feats) so that people could have hybrids if for some reason they wanted to do that.

    More importantly, does that mean a Ranger past Lvl 2 cannot train SWF if they want to use that style instead?
    Last edited by jakeelala; 06-12-2014 at 04:19 PM.
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    this was debated exhaustively on Lama and was stated sometime before the last and just before last updates as being the case. Although frankly they should allowed to be taken together, and the weapons you have equipped should determine which feats give you advantages (ie if 2H weapon then 2HF feats, if 1H Weapon then SWF feats, if 2 Weapons then 2WF Feats) so that people could have hybrids if for some reason they wanted to do that.

    More importantly, does that mean a Ranger past Lvl 2 cannot train SWF if they want to use that style instead?
    Right now it does allow a ranger to get both, but it's a bug, and will be fixed soon.
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