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  1. #381
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikojin View Post
    I wonder at which point 70's is bad? No matter how you slice it, build it, splash it, if your saves are fine with or without DG on EE, then why bother going for it? 2 levels of pal allows some synergy to boost saves dramatically. Taking monk who has great save progression, makes it shine even brighter.

    The gripe I am getting is that people feel that capping DG 'may' make saves not 100% auto-win anymore. Which, doesn't sound like a problem to me.
    For my Ref save, it is auto-win. (until a few traps in E3BC, but I think those are beyond anyone's reach right now)

    I just wanted to point out that you do not need Pal and Monk levels.

    I don't even grind gear or past lives. (but he does have good gear.. not the best, but good)

    My build does sacrifice DPS though, since I took feats to increase saves and basically maxed Dex.

    My other two saves are much lower... low to mid 40s I think.
    They are not auto-win. I get stunned often.. but they are not auto-fail either.

    My other toons have run EEs too.. .at lower lower levels, low saves, less gear...etc.
    It is NOT auto-die to have lower saves on EE.

    But then I play smart and agro as little as I can at a time.

    Anyway, you can get high saves without Pal and Mnk levels.
    You can do EEs without Evasion.

    You can even run them without max destinies and great gear.

    Mostly you just have to slow down and try not to fight too many things at once.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  2. #382
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    bump

  3. #383
    Community Member Chaoscheerio's Avatar
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    I agree with many points here. Paladins have such a meh enhancement line for dps. I mean sure it's useful for a perpetual TR like me since MANY of the mobs I fight when heroic leveling are either undead or evil outsiders. But aside from them... what exactly does it give aside from a bit of healing amp and a couple neat attacks? Immunity from energy drain would be nice... if I didn't own a death ward clicky or bring DW wielding hires to every instance. It's to the point where my Paladin life won't even take the first paladin level until 9 just because it really doesn't offer that much. Divine grace is really nice, but that's only paladin level 2. After that... what is there outside of a fear immunity at pally level 5?
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  4. #384
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    I'd just like to point out that I get 70+ flex on my pure BARD swashy and give up NO DPS to do so. So the idea that pally splashes are OP because you don't give up DPS to get saves (which is not true anyway) is bunk.

    Just thought I'd throw that out there now that the swashers are out.
    The blade itself incites to deeds of violence.
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  5. #385
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    I don't care either way, I think it's fine as is. I have zero pali levels on my account currently, and play EE almost exclusively, unless idk flagging a buddy for something real quick so we can raid or whatever, people who say EE's can't be done without it are just silly. My druid has around a 40 reflex (so basically nothing) and no evasion and rarely dies in any content, unless I'm just crossed eyed, falling out of my chair ... happy.

    Logically though it is OP for sure. I know guildies etc getting 35+ to saves just from divine grace, nothing in the game can even compare to that kind of power for a mere 2 level splash.

    Side note EE's should have insane saves on everything. That's the point, it's to cater to the 1% who need it to be even slightly challenged or they get bored and find a harder game that hasn't been dumbed down for the masses.

  6. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    Mostly you just have to slow down and try not to fight too many things at once.
    Frequently not possible. Just how would you deal with the opening of Return to Gianthold Tor? Or Breaking the Ranks. Or the end of What Goes Up? Or...lots more.

    Managing your aggro-ed mobs is one thing you MUST do to survive in EE, yes, but several other strats are also necessary, one of which is to obtain high saves, by whatever means possible.

    If they are going to remove the DG path to said saves, they should add more legitimate paths so that EE mobs don't flatten you. And I don't consider the fact that you could still splash Pally for *some* DG to be a worthwhile or wise build choice.

  7. #387
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The entire reason divine grace is OP is because content throws situations at you where you need to make a save with a HUGE dc value or suffer alot of damage.

    If they nerf it they need to bring down the DC of some of this higher end stuff the same amount of points they nerf it by (on average).

    .
    And since when have they ever done that?

  8. #388
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    In near future: Ok so i tell you story: There was a class .. a Paladin it was called. It was completely useless after lvl 2 but for some reason those 2 lvls was still strong enough to encourage splits for some ppl. But mighty gods was unpleased by this and wanted to see either more or none of that class to be used .. so they made a change .. those 2 lvl splits became useless .. so whole class became useless and as a joke they gave it 3d6 toggle for being pure because it was general knowledge they cant do any damage. Today Paladins order is dead and noone wants to even read their old books because everyone is affraid that if you touch Paladin gods will show us their wrath.

  9. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaoscheerio View Post
    what is there outside of a fear immunity at pally level 5?
    That's pally level 3, you can use a GH clicky to get it anyway. Level 6 opens up Sacred Defence which isn't too bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    I'd just like to point out that I get 70+ flex on my pure BARD swashy and give up NO DPS to do so. So the idea that pally splashes are OP because you don't give up DPS to get saves (which is not true anyway) is bunk.

    Just thought I'd throw that out there now that the swashers are out.
    If you went dex based then you did give up DPS. You might not give up much but there would be some DPS loss.

  10. #390
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    +8 to saves from Divine Grace is as good as anyone got before epic destinies, the enhancement update, larger tomes, and inflated charisma bonuses from gear, including insightful bonuses. This returns a two level Paladin splash to the powerful but reasonable level it existed at before. Correcting for how disproportionately amazing a Paladin splash has become is absolutely the right thing to do.

    The fact that it is currently so hard to justify not splashing at least two levels of Paladin onto any build currently is telling.

    All the melee FOTM builds have 6 levels of Paladin right now anyway, don't they...?

    Also, this is a pretty soft change they are proposing. Anyone who is willing to pretend like this is a gamebreaking or unwarranted nerf is really stretching it. If any of you can complain about getting +8 to saves from 2 levels of Paladin, +14 from 4 levels, and +20 from 6 levels and keep a straight face, more power to you.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 06-25-2014 at 04:34 AM.

  11. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    All the melee FOTM builds have 6 levels of Paladin right now anyway, don't they...?
    There is problem with that .. "MELEE". Coz as meelee you dont really loose mutch from multiclassing. Barbarian loose a little rage +STR.(not mutch compared what he can have) Fighter loose some feats(not big deal coz still plenty left). Ranger ... did he really loose anything besides useless favored enemy and casterlvl for spells that dont need any ? .. etc. ...
    Caster on the other hand is alot different.
    What you have for example as arane to survive EE ? .. well Wizards can take feat for INT based reflex and with rogue split it can help .. can but still reflex if not wizards favored thingie ..i dont complain coz it can help you alot but you sacrifice for it of course and even 2 lvls for caster is sacrifice probably bigger than those 6 for fighter.
    As sorcerer you cant glue you reflex to your main stat by feat. You can still split for 2 rogue or monk but it will not fix enything in EE because evasion itself is useless if you cant make the save. Paladin on other hand is nice split that gives you alot saves. You dont have evasion (until you cant sacrifice another 2 lvl leaving 16 sorcerer at what point you basically are not caster anymore ) but still take 500 damage every time is alot better than 1000 damage
    Somone can see taking "only" 500 damage as sorcerer gamebreaking but i dont. And somone can see avoiding damage as .. as something what used to be sorcerer but had to sacrifice 4 lvls to not die instantly as gamebreking but i just see sacrifice and use of gamemechanics that are completely ok.

    Maybe somone likes the idea of sorcerers die instantly and at the same time heavyarmor can stand in middle of vulcano having nice day. Because this change + the new MRR is basically that

  12. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    +8 to saves from Divine Grace is as good as anyone got before epic destinies, the enhancement update, larger tomes, and inflated charisma bonuses from gear, including insightful bonuses. This returns a two level Paladin splash to the powerful but reasonable level it existed at before. Correcting for how disproportionately amazing a Paladin splash has become is absolutely the right thing to do.

    The fact that it is currently so hard to justify not splashing at least two levels of Paladin onto any build currently is telling.

    All the melee FOTM builds have 6 levels of Paladin right now anyway, don't they...?

    Also, this is a pretty soft change they are proposing. Anyone who is willing to pretend like this is a gamebreaking or unwarranted nerf is really stretching it. If any of you can complain about getting +8 to saves from 2 levels of Paladin, +14 from 4 levels, and +20 from 6 levels and keep a straight face, more power to you.
    I just don't see a huge percentage of people with a 2 pal splash. Turbine would have the data.

    It's just the wrong approach to nerf 2 paladin splashes to help paladin. It doesn't accomplish the objective and does nothing to improve game balance. It simply reduces the # of builds that are worth playing for EE. I am sure if you compare 2 pal to 2 monk splashes you would find the of 2 pal splahes isn't even close to 2 monk.

    Random precision isn't the way to go. If they want to address balance it should be done separately along with all other splashes rather than focusing on one splash.

    Lastly, there are many people running around with +30 save bonuses from orbs still. As far as balance goes, the # of favorable game bugs out there is high and those are much more game-breaking than the legitimate saves that come from Divine Grace which require some investment. Why break people's legit builds instead of fixing builds that rely heavily or even solely on favorable game bugs?

  13. #393
    Community Member Standal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    +8 to saves from Divine Grace is as good as anyone got before epic destinies, the enhancement update, larger tomes, and inflated charisma bonuses from gear, including insightful bonuses. This returns a two level Paladin splash to the powerful but reasonable level it existed at before. Correcting for how disproportionately amazing a Paladin splash has become is absolutely the right thing to do.

    The fact that it is currently so hard to justify not splashing at least two levels of Paladin onto any build currently is telling.

    All the melee FOTM builds have 6 levels of Paladin right now anyway, don't they...?

    Also, this is a pretty soft change they are proposing. Anyone who is willing to pretend like this is a gamebreaking or unwarranted nerf is really stretching it. If any of you can complain about getting +8 to saves from 2 levels of Paladin, +14 from 4 levels, and +20 from 6 levels and keep a straight face, more power to you.
    It's a minimum 4 level splash to get DG to do much of anything. A 4 level splash and distorting my build towards Cha (a dumpstat otherwise) seems like enough of a sacrifice to get working evasion. Your problem is you don't like the synergy between monk and fighter. If I was just running around with an 18 fighter/2 pally you wouldn't have an issue with DG. DG is fine. Where things went off the rails is when the devs decided you could have a 12 fighter/6 monk build that has all the good abilities of the old kensei III enhancement with 6 levels of monk thrown in.

  14. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    +8 to saves from Divine Grace is as good as anyone got before epic destinies, the enhancement update, larger tomes, and inflated charisma bonuses from gear, including insightful bonuses. This returns a two level Paladin splash to the powerful but reasonable level it existed at before. Correcting for how disproportionately amazing a Paladin splash has become is absolutely the right thing to do.
    26 cha wasn't that hard even before MoTU, you could get 10 from gear(7+1+2), +4 tomes, 2 completionist, 2 ship and 2 yugo is +20, plus another +1 from litany. If you were a sorc splashing paladin you'd also get +5 from levelups, maybe some enhancements and max starting cha too.

    Back then saves weren't as important though, as most melees had a healer to patch up their boo boos. Now with everyone soloing everything and having to heal themselves they're seen as important.

  15. #395
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayseifn View Post
    That's pally level 3, you can use a GH clicky to get it anyway. Level 6 opens up Sacred Defence which isn't too bad.



    If you went dex based then you did give up DPS. You might not give up much but there would be some DPS loss.
    No...actually..just no
    The blade itself incites to deeds of violence.
    Highlanders Cannith - Kalimah, Calimah, Rustymonster, Kraps, Nepheli, Wurshuper

  16. #396

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    I'd just like to point out that I get 70+ flex on my pure BARD swashy and give up NO DPS to do so. So the idea that pally splashes are OP because you don't give up DPS to get saves (which is not true anyway) is bunk.

    Just thought I'd throw that out there now that the swashers are out.
    Care to post the breakdown of how you got over 70 reflex while also picking only the gear/feats/twists/stats that gave maximum DPS?

  17. #397
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayseifn View Post
    26 cha wasn't that hard even before MoTU, you could get 10 from gear(7+1+2), +4 tomes, 2 completionist, 2 ship and 2 yugo is +20, plus another +1 from litany. If you were a sorc splashing paladin you'd also get +5 from levelups, maybe some enhancements and max starting cha too.

    Back then saves weren't as important though, as most melees had a healer to patch up their boo boos. Now with everyone soloing everything and having to heal themselves they're seen as important.
    +4 tomes pre-MOTU only dropped from a couple raids with a very low drop rate, but more likely to be found in TOD 20th reward lists. I don't think they appeared in the store until right around MOTU release.

    2× completionist isn't exactly what I would call "not hard to get" either, let alone 1 completionist. Pre-MOTU, TRing had just started becoming a regular thing for people and a lot focused more on relevant past lives to final builds and getting 36 point build.
    #MakeDDOGreatAgain

    You are the one choosing not to play alts.

    Casual player now investing way less than I used to into the game, playing 1-3 months at a time and still want nothing to do with Reaper. #improvepuggrouping#alldifficultiesmatter

  18. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    +4 tomes pre-MOTU only dropped from a couple raids with a very low drop rate, but more likely to be found in TOD 20th reward lists. I don't think they appeared in the store until right around MOTU release.

    2× completionist isn't exactly what I would call "not hard to get" either, let alone 1 completionist. Pre-MOTU, TRing had just started becoming a regular thing for people and a lot focused more on relevant past lives to final builds and getting 36 point build.
    I was just adding all of the stat buffs I could thing of pre MotU, you could cut in in half so you're only getting +10 from items/tomes/etc and still reach 26 cha with bit of investment(16 base). 26 back then was something anyone could get with a little work if they wanted to, but not many did.

    You get +2 to all stats for obtaining the completionist feat, no need to do it twice or 3 times.

  19. #399
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funny_looking_mole View Post
    Care to post the breakdown of how you got over 70 reflex while also picking only the gear/feats/twists/stats that gave maximum DPS?
    I am not going into detail but Halfling with dex damage.
    The blade itself incites to deeds of violence.
    Highlanders Cannith - Kalimah, Calimah, Rustymonster, Kraps, Nepheli, Wurshuper

  20. #400
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    I am not going into detail but Halfling with dex damage.
    To be fair, a dex based halfing with up to +16 reflex available through enhancements isn't exactly comparable to any other build... except that paladin splash...
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