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  1. #201
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pesch1991 View Post
    i dont want to twist unearthly reaction -6 and iam not palying a halfing either -3 (waste of dps), i dont play a ranger -3 that means i would loose +12 reflex saves and end up with 58-59 please dont forget iam a melee class and i use my twists for better stuff halfling or ranager ? no way my build is meant for dps.
    (1) I'm not telling you to reroll into a halfling ranger... You said paladin levels were REQUIRED to hit 70 Reflex save. I showed you were wrong about that.
    (2) You still get +8 Reflex saves from 2 paladin, so you're only going to be down -7 reflex save using your current build... Give up a little DPS, and twist in Unearthly Reactions, and you're only down -1
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  2. #202
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pesch1991 View Post
    and i think the build you listed is actually a monkcher isnt it ? a halfling 12 monk 6 ranger 2 fighter am i right ? so due to a nerf i have to play pew pew ? so be it then.
    No, it was a 8/6/6 fighter/ranger/monk... Centered TWF with an occasional manyshot... Not a pew-pew monk archer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  3. #203
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    What's broken with the divine grace splash is it literally costs no offensive for insanely better defense. Add in Divine Might and it gets even dumber, hopefully that'll be nerfed next.

  4. #204
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pesch1991 View Post
    It seems despite my efforts people ignore the fact that there is no reason to change/nerf divine grace and instead report me because having a own opinion is a bad thing unfortunately i feel sorry for all of you who splashed 2 paladins including myself feel free do close this thread if you like to, i am out of here.
    Don't sweat it dude, folks here love to see other folks get nerfed. No one cares if its not a class they play..in fact they not only don't care, they love it as it (in some odd way) validates the fact that they don't use that particular build or idea. So its a way for everyone who doesn't think like you to say "aha you are a noob and you like the easy button..see how I do it is better and now you will have to change how you do....thus I am way cooler than you and my epeen has just grown".

    Next step, lets make stances in Monk trees available only at level they can be taken. Lets get all the archers out of Fury. Lets get the BF back to where they can only repair (because recon is OP). Then lets move cocoon to tier 5. Monk and rogue evasion should not autogrant at any level (you want evasion plan it as a feat). Warforged/Bladefored will need to be made 100% immune to all healing. We also need to pull out crit damage from mountain stance so we can use fire for something. This idea with the monks being kensai/centered...bad one and needs to be reversed asap (plus side is a whole lot more folks will be down in the low level range rebuilding and we'll see a bump on sales in the store..double plus).

    Once we get that done lets see where we are on "balance" and what else we can do to make this fun. Because god knows the game we play now is just no fun. We need to get this in order asap.
    The blade itself incites to deeds of violence.
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  5. #205
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    What's broken with the divine grace splash is it literally costs no offensive for insanely better defense. Add in Divine Might and it gets even dumber, hopefully that'll be nerfed next.
    How do you see that taking 1/3 of the available classes that you can split into along with pounding Charisma is no cost? Are you guys all daft? And DM doesn't even stack with things...have you even done this before or are you just jibba jabbin like half the others here?
    The blade itself incites to deeds of violence.
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  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    How do you see that taking 1/3 of the available classes that you can split into along with pounding Charisma is no cost? Are you guys all daft? And DM doesn't even stack with things...have you even done this before or are you just jibba jabbin like half the others here?
    Oh please, a 30 Charisma is zero effect. A 40+ might take a little but the benefits gained more than outweigh the cost.

    It's broken.

  7. #207
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeFury View Post
    If casters damage and their spell pen is tied to their level (which is logical) why shouldn't paladins or any other class ability be tied to level as well?

    For example, Kukan-Do DC is still something like 10+CHA mod + Monk level. So Divine grace should be tied to Paladin level as well, and high saves should be trademark of high level paladins, not splashes
    Some things should be tied to class level. Some things should be tied to character level. Some things should be front loaded. Some things should be back loaded.

    There's plenty of room for variety in DDO.

    Also, caster damage generally isn't tied to the class level after a certain point - most casters are *much* higher level than the spell damage level cap, so they're not getting any meaningful benefit from their high level on offensive DPS spells.
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  8. #208
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    Oh please, a 30 Charisma is zero effect. A 40+ might take a little but the benefits gained more than outweigh the cost.

    It's broken.
    Puff puff pass.
    The blade itself incites to deeds of violence.
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  9. #209
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pesch1991 View Post
    But that wont change the fact that mobs in EE have high dcs.
    This is what ive been bringing up the entire time. If the average player loses 7 points on their saves due to the nerf, mob DCs at the high end should lose 7 points.

    They want saves to be important? This will bring the entire player population into the realm of having saves that actually matter.

  10. #210
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    In *Player Character Balance* was said, by a dev., it was easier to take something away than to adjust every mob (in a nutshell). With the current change they have a good compromise. The bonus of splashing 2 lvl. of Paladin still is huge compared to the investement. Imagine they could hav changed regular feats instead. +2 stacking bonus from Lightning Reflexes for instance. These feats were weak even to 3.5 pnp standards. To make saves meaningful again there are many options of already available material, but it is ignored. Now, you might look back into those feats again and tweak your multiclass character a bit. I predict it won't be that much. Dps is dealt by ED features mostly, changing some heroic feats does not seem like having a big impact. Builds depending on many prereq. feats have a problem for sure, but even this can be solved.

    Did people ever try splashing 2 FvS instead of Pal and rely more on PRR and dmg. absorb than 95% Evasion? If they didn't they might have to adjust their playstyle, if they did, this change won't affect them at all. My cetus copy got 32 CHA max. atm. The change made me lose 3 points on all saves. That is not too much and surely can be made up with MRR + elemental absorb.

    The one thing I really could be upset is the incompetence in adjusting mobs to reasonable numbers.
    Last edited by zwiebelring; 06-11-2014 at 10:27 AM.
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  11. #211
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Default I think we are missing the "Big Picture"

    Why was this change proposed?

    Many have already jumped on the - OMG it is a big Nerf to us all, Doooooom

    But there are other developer threads where they are working on changing mechanics and even briefly mention a re-examine of the High end attributes and why "To-Hit" and DCs are so high. It is possible that what is being done here is to balance OUR saves against the lowering of High End mobs DCs. Much like the changes they made to Poison and Disease (while not popular change) to allow MotU mobs so that their abilities were not useless, it is possible that if left as is the balance to Mob DCs would mean a very large portion of the population would not be effected by spells any longer.

    So maybe the question that should be asked is - With this change and the change to Mob DCs will we be at the same place as we are currently if our saves drop from 70 to 60?

  12. #212
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    Let me see if I got this right:

    Instead of paladin being useless beyond the first 2 levels, it would in the future be entirely useless. (Slight exaggeration. The usefullness of those 2 levels would be severly reduced for charisma based toons. Variations like 16-18Src/2Pal/0-2X would be hurt to the point where they would need to reroll. Paladin levels after 2 would still be entirley useless except for the purpose of past lives.).

    To OP: Spot on. Everyone going for divine grace doesnt make it overpowered, if a more likely explanation is that the out-of-whack saves in EE are the reason people are being herded into paladin splashes.

    It doesnt matter really matter that you CAN get a reflex save of over 70 without DG (but how are your other saves doing on that toon?), what matters is that saves should be at a level where a majority of well built, well geared EE toons are in range of succeding or failing a save on a roll of somewhere between 2-19. Some reflex focused toons should autosave on 2+, but only a minority should autofail. Remove divine grace and that is far from a fact today.

    Additional suggestion: Please unnerf Holy Aura to make the +4 saves a divine bonus again. It is as of the moment about as useful a spell as Flaming Sphere, and taking 15-16 levels of divine caster should grant more. We need more alternatives to raise our saves, if EE is to stay the way it has been in since the release of EGH.

    That's all, thank you for listening.

    (Potential conflicts of interest: My main toon is a wizard/monk splash with 73 reflex save. My second main toon is currently level 28 with 18 levels of Paladin. I still like him, he has a nice personality.)

  13. #213
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Why was this change proposed?
    Agreed. Of course, we can't have a constructive discussion because 3 people yell their heads off over a slight nerf to their builds. Just hoping that the devs will ignore those for good.
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

  14. #214
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Why was this change proposed?

    Many have already jumped on the - OMG it is a big Nerf to us all, Doooooom

    But there are other developer threads where they are working on changing mechanics and even briefly mention a re-examine of the High end attributes and why "To-Hit" and DCs are so high. It is possible that what is being done here is to balance OUR saves against the lowering of High End mobs DCs. Much like the changes they made to Poison and Disease (while not popular change) to allow MotU mobs so that their abilities were not useless, it is possible that if left as is the balance to Mob DCs would mean a very large portion of the population would not be effected by spells any longer.

    So maybe the question that should be asked is - With this change and the change to Mob DCs will we be at the same place as we are currently if our saves drop from 70 to 60?
    I see the same thing too. The changes to Pally saves are also coming with lowerings of Mob DC's. However, I have yet to see anyone chiming in on the fail difference of 8-10 from their saves. Or there is just too much empty rage.

  15. #215
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikojin View Post
    I see the same thing too. The changes to Pally saves are also coming with lowerings of Mob DC's. However, I have yet to see anyone chiming in on the fail difference of 8-10 from their saves. Or there is just too much empty rage.
    I seem to have missed the notice that DC's are going to change. From what I've been able to find that is not happening when DG is being changed. Did info get released to indicate that DC's are also being reduced or are you just assuming that it must be the case?
    The blade itself incites to deeds of violence.
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  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    I seem to have missed the notice that DC's are going to change. From what I've been able to find that is not happening when DG is being changed. Did info get released to indicate that DC's are also being reduced or are you just assuming that it must be the case?
    Nop DC's in EE will stay the same nothing will be changed. Soon Divine Grace = Lesser Divine grace, great.

  17. #217
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    Im gonna need a +20 heart for my toons if they do this. A kiss first would be nice.....cause you know......

  18. #218
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    I seem to have missed the notice that DC's are going to change. From what I've been able to find that is not happening when DG is being changed. Did info get released to indicate that DC's are also being reduced or are you just assuming that it must be the case?
    Quote Originally Posted by pesch1991 View Post
    Nop DC's in EE will stay the same nothing will be changed. Soon Divine Grace = Lesser Divine grace, great.
    To be clear the Divine Grace changes are still on the Idea board - No coding has been done yet and no planned date of this change has been set in stone. Next other developer discussions have been discussing the re-examine/possible changes to Mobs out of whack To-hit and DCs. Again both of these are still in the Idea stage of development. But it would be fair that if during the examination they decided to lower the DCs so that you do not need 70+ saves but could now live with a lower number, it would reasonable to examine the system so that PC saves are also brought in context making Saves for any Epic character have some meaning.

    Since this is still in planning, yes we should voice our concerns, but we should not yet fly to the Dooooom side until we as the player base understand the NET of the change as it effects the entire issue, not just focus on the sliver of the change.

  19. #219
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    Kinda hoping the ridiculous posts of the last few pages are over with.

    The problem with the DG change can be summed up as thus:
    1. The change doesn't accomplish the stated dev intention of encouraging people to play paladins.

    2. People splash DG primarily because of the insane saves required in EE. It would be better to just readjust the DCs in EE, as they have stated they are planning to look at. If after some time with the readjust there are other issues, then they can be addressed. But most likely the readjustment will negate the need for many builds to use a slight pally splash.

    3. DDO is built with flexible multiclasses as one of its strengths. Some abilities, whether they be class, enhancement, or feat, require a large investment. Some require less. That is not necessarily linked to how powerful the ability is (ex. evasion). There are always choices, and the difficulty of the choice really depends on that particular build and the player behind it. This change would move towards narrowing multiclass options instead of allowing flexibility, something the devs have shown concern with in the past (i.e. enhancement pass).

    4. There is nothing inherently "unfair" about a player splashing paladin for DG, anymore than it is inherently "unfair" to splash for evasion, or "unfair" to splash for trap skills, or "unfair" to splash for anything else. That is the purpose of a splash. By limiting those choices, you are choosing to force your ideas of builds and play on others. You're free to build how you want, but one toon being more survivable than yours (or not even that, as seen from several posts here) is not really a game-breaking balance issue. No one wins DDO.

    5. This game is still supposed to be based on DnD. Divine Grace currently functions as it is meant to function. While I understand the need to sometimes make changes from DnD, the necessity should be incontrovertible. That isn't even close to the case here.

    6. Claiming DG is "absolutely necessary" or "a crutch" is ultimately not relevant. It's a build choice. Some people may need it, some not, and some may just like it. No one should have to defend their build choices before some sort of forum tribunal, wherein it is ajudged whether or not the player really needed those levels, and requiring evidence of mob hp and save numbers. Come on already. The only way in which the need for DG is relevant to this discussion is already covered in #2.

    My suggestion would be that this change not go forward. Instead, ADJUST EE FIRST, not after. Make actual improvements to paladins so people want to play them. Fix armor so it matters. Improve the capstones so choices matter more for some of these builds. Then wait and see how it all shakes out. I'm betting that were those changes to be made and those changes only, the "this build is OP" debate would be over, as more builds would be considered viable. Then again, these are the forums.
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    Ask for TWEAKS and ye shall receive, and lo, the nerfhammer shall be moderate. Ask for cow from orbit and ye shall receive that, too, and be sorry you did.

  20. #220
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    So Im assuming Blackguard is out of the question?

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