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  1. #61
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    Default ok

    lets say theres only 2...

    If 2 people can do something doesn't that make it possible?

  2. #62
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    You are talking SOLOING, although Barb soloing EE obviously is possible that's not what were talking about in general on this thread, were talking about barb self healing and or lack thereof.

    If another barbarian can self heal enough to SOLO EE, cant you pull off self healing in groups? Really? you cant?

  3. #63
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    You are talking SOLOING, although Barb soloing EE obviously is possible that's not what were talking about in general on this thread, were talking about barb self healing and or lack thereof.

    If another barbarian can self heal enough to SOLO EE, cant you pull off self healing in groups? Really? you cant?
    you brought up the videos. I simply educated you. now you want to go back to barbs and self sufficiency?

    ok, you still think Cocoon is the best source of self healing for a barb, which means dropping rage. you apparently have never done EE or played outside of a dungeon crawling group. you would rather sacrifice hp and dps for Rejuvenation Cocoon : Active (12 SP activation) (12 sec cooldown) (Empower Heal, Quicken, Enlarge) (SR: no) Protect target ally with a shield of [90/120/150] temporary HP for 9 seconds. Heals 5d6 HP every 2 seconds while the shield persists. SF pots by far heal you for more at no cost of losing rages. the benefit and cost is not worth losing limited rages, hp and dps. the thing I have a problem with SF pots is that its the only real reliable self healing for barbs that penalize them at the same time.

    scroll/wand healing is useless and pointless for a barb. it means, again losing limited rages, hp and dps PLUS constantly having to switch from weapon to scroll to weapon again. its not impossible to have a high enough umd to achieve no fail scroll heals, but the cost and benefit is not worth it.

    playing with your head is obviously the best way to mitigate damage, but if you have played above EN, than no matter what you will still take plenty of damage. if you want to be sneaky and get on mobs backs all the time, than play a rogue that can be evasive, deal high sneak attack damage and much easier to self heal without having to sacrifice or lose anything.

    if you think barbs shouldn't need to be raged all the time when there are mobs all through the dungeons and its an obvious difference in dps with or without it, than you are not playing a barb. you are playing a fighter that wants to be a barb when it grows up someday. you brought up PnP. in PnP you aren't raged all the time when you are walking along or at the town armorer. in a battle you ARE raging just like in DDO when you run quests. because it makes sense to. otherwise, why are you playing that class if not playing it to its full potential?
    Last edited by Qhualor; 06-15-2014 at 06:47 PM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    you brought up the videos. I simply educated you. now you want to go back to barbs and self sufficiency?

    ok, you still think Cocoon is the best source of self healing for a barb, which means dropping rage. you apparently have never done EE or played outside of a dungeon crawling group. you would rather sacrifice hp and dps for Rejuvenation Cocoon : Active (12 SP activation) (12 sec cooldown) (Empower Heal, Quicken, Enlarge) (SR: no) Protect target ally with a shield of [90/120/150] temporary HP for 9 seconds. Heals 5d6 HP every 2 seconds while the shield persists. SF pots by far heal you for more at no cost of losing rages. the benefit and cost is not worth losing limited rages, hp and dps. the thing I have a problem with SF pots is that its the only real reliable self healing for barbs that penalize them at the same time.

    scroll/wand healing is useless and pointless for a barb. it means, again losing limited rages, hp and dps PLUS constantly having to switch from weapon to scroll to weapon again. its not impossible to have a high enough umd to achieve no fail scroll heals, but the cost and benefit is not worth it.

    playing with your head is obviously the best way to mitigate damage, but if you have played above EN, than no matter what you will still take plenty of damage. if you want to be sneaky and get on mobs backs all the time, than play a rogue that can be evasive, deal high sneak attack damage and much easier to self heal without having to sacrifice or lose anything.

    if you think barbs shouldn't need to be raged all the time when there are mobs all through the dungeons and its an obvious difference in dps with or without it, than you are not playing a barb. you are playing a fighter that wants to be a barb when it grows up someday. you brought up PnP. in PnP you aren't raged all the time when you are walking along or at the town armorer. in a battle you ARE raging just like in DDO when you run quests. because it makes sense to. otherwise, why are you playing that class if not playing it to its full potential?
    LOL, LOLOL educated me, proving yourself wrong isn't educating me. Can barbs Heal self well enough in ee or not, simple question, the fact that some can solo EE on barbs is proof they can, obviously.

    Not only do you know ive solod ee, you know ive solod ee on builds you and 3/4 of the forum roleplayers said wouldn't be able to. If you want to play in a poor manner because it makes you feel more like a barbarian that's fine, but then complainging about it on the forums afterward is ridiculous. Cocoon works as well for a barbarian as it does for a fighter, PERIOD. As does every other form of self healing. Playing in a backward manner so that you have problems staying alive isn't justified or acceptable.

    I routinely outkill/dps other at all levels when playing my barbs or any other classes or builds ive made for dps, and I don't need a babysitter, sorry but its true. Don't wanna believe it because it makes you look bad, well, that's fine, self image is a mfer, do what ya gotta do.

    Roleplay.
    Last edited by 01000010; 06-15-2014 at 07:04 PM.

  5. #65
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    LOL, LOLOL educated me, proving yourself wrong isn't educating me. Can barbs Heal self well enough in ee or not, simple question, the fact that some can solo EE on barbs is proof they can, obviously.

    Not only do you know ive solod ee, you know ive solod ee on builds you and 3/4 of the forum roleplayers said wouldn't be able to. If you want to play in a poor manner because it makes you feel more like a barbarian that's fine, but then complainging about it on the forums afterward is ridiculous. Cocoon works as well for a barbarian as it does for a fighter, PERIOD. As does every other form of self healing. Playing in a backward manner so that you have problems staying alive isn't justified or acceptable.

    I routinely outkill/dps other at all levels when playing my barbs or any other classes or builds ive made for dps, and I don't need a babysitter, sorry but its true. Don't wanna believe it because it makes you look bad, well, that's fine, self image is a mfer, do what ya gotta do.

    Roleplay.
    and how do I know you have soloed? do I even care? kill count means what? do I care?

    you can use PERIOD all you want, but simple math will show SF pots heal more reliably and for more hp than Cocoon will with less loss.

    apparently we are doing it wrong so maybe you should put together your own guide on how to play better. not all of us hold hands and sing Kumbaya when we quest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    and how do I know you have soloed? do I even care? kill count means what? do I care?

    you can use PERIOD all you want, but simple math will show SF pots heal more reliably and for more hp than Cocoon will with less loss.

    apparently we are doing it wrong so maybe you should put together your own guide on how to play better. not all of us hold hands and sing Kumbaya when we quest.
    Ive posted vids of me soloing EE quests with oddball builds others said would work and doing MASSIVE dps with them, I cant imagine you somehow missed those posts as active as you are on the forums. Did I say killcount? I said outkill/dps, not the same thing, if the wording bothers you ill say outperform, using a barbarian and self healing with various methods, not just cocoon, heal scrolls, SF Pots, all have their place and time if you aren't roleplaying a barbarian.

    By all means show me the math, SF pot healing vs cocoon healing. Ill help you out, 1st of all you get 150 outright in temp health, don't forget that anybody can augment or slot devotion and heal amp, now ignore all stat loss except strength and don't forget the 50% slow and compare dps after healing. Simple math PERIOD.

    "We" implies everyone roleplays on their barbarians, but you know this is false already, you've seen vids...

  7. #67
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    Ive posted vids of me soloing EE quests with oddball builds others said would work and doing MASSIVE dps with them, I cant imagine you somehow missed those posts as active as you are on the forums. Did I say killcount? I said outkill/dps, not the same thing, if the wording bothers you ill say outperform, using a barbarian and self healing with various methods, not just cocoon, heal scrolls, SF Pots, all have their place and time if you aren't roleplaying a barbarian.

    By all means show me the math, SF pot healing vs cocoon healing. Ill help you out, 1st of all you get 150 outright in temp health, don't forget that anybody can augment or slot devotion and heal amp, now ignore all stat loss except strength and don't forget the 50% slow and compare dps after healing. Simple math PERIOD.

    "We" implies everyone roleplays on their barbarians, but you know this is false already, you've seen vids...
    this is a barbarian thread, not oddball builds thread. stick to the topic.

    how do you know you outkill/dps others? do you swap damage numbers after each swing?

    ive already stated with a single SF pot, depending on heal amp, you can heal for 600+. yes there is a loss to saves, some dps and run speed but you are keeping yourself alive easier than with temporary hp. you realize if you get hit after using Cocoon you don't get the full benefit. PERIOD.

  8. #68
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    Default you love to play word games dont ya

    All word games.

    My reply about soloing ee with an oddball build was in response to a claim by you that you've never seen any proof of me soloing EE, this was another false statement, one of many so far.

    IF I can solo EEs with a build you claimed would be pathetic at best that means either im a god in this game or you don't know the game as well as you thought, since the first is not accurate that leaves the second option therefore your ideas about barbarians are equally biased and inaccurate due to your lack of ingenuity.

    You said " you realize if you get hit after using Cocoon you don't get the full benefit. PERIOD. " Again, false. If you get hit for OVER 150 you don't get the full benefit. If you have good defenses (a barb can get 60 dr and some dodge or 25%ish dodge, 10% incorp, 50% displace(not to mention uncanny dodge boost)) youll get good if not full return, That's if you use it during a big fight with multiple mobs, if its one mob you just earsmash and you get full benefit from cocoon, if your between fights its a big cheap heal with no drawbacks except POSSIBLY a rage use, sometimes rage runs out on its own at the right time.

    Again, if you like to roleplay a dumb barbarian in ddo go ahead, but you certainly aren't forced to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    Ive posted vids of me soloing EE quests with oddball builds others said would work and doing MASSIVE dps with them
    All I remember is a druid which burst DPS output seemed to be based on Energy Burst... soloing EE Trial By Fire. Yeah, it is what it is.

    Though I really wanna say well done on being able to create the most hilarious yet still really informative (in the end) discussions on the general forum. Always a good read when it's about class I didn't get to play or think about much. Honestly, it's all positive.

    Now about Barbs... Since I do understand your approach when it comes to DDO and how you seem to want to adapt to the situation and come up with weird builds (that work)... but right now it's just not what it's about. If someone would want to play a barb like a semi melee-burst dps/paladin... well they might not chose the barb class in the first place. The problem comes from the perception and gameplay experience of the majority, not yours. A barb kind of screams full retard melee DPS who can mitigate damage (to a certain point... but more than the masses) so it caters to the folks looking for exactly that.

    And yes I did play a barb and tried a couple (up to lvl 22 only and once heh) EEs on the way. It was 18/2 fighter I think (not sure - possibly 17-2-1 druid) because I wanted to be full melee retard hoping that my defense wouldn't come from healing but from mitigation. J/K, of course, I knew up front that it wouldn't work. It was for a heroic TR anyway...

    In the end, I guess if i'd REALLY want to play a Barb into EEs I would, just like you, adapt in order to achieve self sufficiency but because of that reason, I just wouldn't play a barb in order to say, grind EPLs.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 06-15-2014 at 09:47 PM.
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  10. #70
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    All word games.

    My reply about soloing ee with an oddball build was in response to a claim by you that you've never seen any proof of me soloing EE, this was another false statement, one of many so far.

    IF I can solo EEs with a build you claimed would be pathetic at best that means either im a god in this game or you don't know the game as well as you thought, since the first is not accurate that leaves the second option therefore your ideas about barbarians are equally biased and inaccurate due to your lack of ingenuity.

    You said " you realize if you get hit after using Cocoon you don't get the full benefit. PERIOD. " Again, false. If you get hit for OVER 150 you don't get the full benefit. If you have good defenses (a barb can get 60 dr and some dodge or 25%ish dodge, 10% incorp, 50% displace(not to mention uncanny dodge boost)) youll get good if not full return, That's if you use it during a big fight with multiple mobs, if its one mob you just earsmash and you get full benefit from cocoon, if your between fights its a big cheap heal with no drawbacks except POSSIBLY a rage use, sometimes rage runs out on its own at the right time.

    Again, if you like to roleplay a dumb barbarian in ddo go ahead, but you certainly aren't forced to.
    I grow tired of this now. ive never ever encountered a barbarian that plays like you successfully. honestly, it would be a joy to see you in action. perhaps you could post a vid for me to watch so I can learn a thing or two about barbs since you have posted so many oddball build videos in the past somewhere. you are right about one thing. I do play dumb dumb barbs, but it doesn't mean I am bad at playing them or cant succeed or require a nanny.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    All I remember is a druid which burst DPS output seemed to be based on Energy Burst... soloing EE Trial By Fire. Yeah, it is what it is.

    Though I really wanna say well done on being able to create the most hilarious yet still really informative (in the end) discussions on the general forum. Always a good read when it's about class I didn't get to play or think about much. Honestly, it's all positive.

    Now about Barbs... Since I do understand your approach when it comes to DDO and how you seem to want to adapt to the situation and come up with weird builds (that work)... but right now it's just not what it's about. If someone would want to play a barb like a semi melee-burst dps/paladin... well they might not chose the barb class in the first place. The problem comes from the perception and gameplay experience of the majority, not yours. A barb kind of screams full retard melee DPS who can mitigate damage (to a certain point... but more than the masses) so it caters to the folks looking for exactly that.

    And yes I did play a barb and tried a couple (up to lvl 22 only and once heh) EEs on the way. It was 18/2 fighter I think (not sure - possibly 17-2-1 druid) because I wanted to be full melee retard hoping that my defense wouldn't come from healing but from mitigation. J/K, of course, I knew up front that it wouldn't work. It was for a heroic TR anyway...

    In the end, I guess if i'd REALLY want to play a Barb into EEs I would, just like you, adapt in order to achieve self sufficiency but because of that reason, I just wouldn't play a barb in order to say, grind EPLs.
    But that's the problem, playing a class or build the way you WANT it to work and failing rather than in a way where it WILL work is a type of roleplay, im just not a roleplayer in ddo and I wasn't in pnp either, design adjust adapt overcome. Now if you want to say an 18barb/1/1whatever or 18/2 isn't a barb then I haven't played a barb in a couple years, to me tho, if you have death frenzy you are a barb.

    No matter how many people want to play a barb like its a juggernaut it doesn't make it a good idea, and a non selfhealing melee with a healer will never outdps 2 self healing melees of similar skill.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    I grow tired of this now. ive never ever encountered a barbarian that plays like you successfully. honestly, it would be a joy to see you in action. perhaps you could post a vid for me to watch so I can learn a thing or two about barbs since you have posted so many oddball build videos in the past somewhere. you are right about one thing. I do play dumb dumb barbs, but it doesn't mean I am bad at playing them or cant succeed or require a nanny.

    Sorry I was harsh, im getting tired of argueing as well. Ill tell ya what, if I didn't think it would cause nerfs id post a lot of vids, but I know better.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    But that's the problem, playing a class or build the way you WANT it to work and failing rather than in a way where it WILL work is a type of roleplay, im just not a roleplayer in ddo and I wasn't in pnp either, design adjust adapt overcome. Now if you want to say an 18barb/1/1whatever or 18/2 isn't a barb then I haven't played a barb in a couple years, to me tho, if you have death frenzy you are a barb.

    No matter how many people want to play a barb like its a juggernaut it doesn't make it a good idea, and a non selfhealing melee with a healer will never outdps 2 self healing melees of similar skill.
    For the sake of balance (in between classes), once that it is aknowledged that the main gamestyle requires self sufficiency, I totally disagree with what you're saying.

    I can understand that some P2W options like bladeforged posseses an over-the-top easy button but when it comes to classes, the defensive abilities of barbarians are, as other pointed out, simply too bad for the task of being top melee DPS.

    What you're saying is that, the game should be balanced around your own playstyle (which is more creator than player focused from my POV - reprensenting a slight % of the playerbase). So here's a new tips for Barbs looking to clear top tier content : It's impossible to play like a barb.

    I know, you know, we all know, etc... that there are blatant balance issues when it comes to different builds options vs EEs. I understand that your solution is the way to go atm but people are looking to change things so that solution isn't the only way to go anymore. They want a playstyle they like/liked to be viable once again. But alas, it's impossible without making EH/EN worse than a walk in the park.
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    Whats funny is my assertion that a barb can and should be played in such a manner will probably motivate more change than all the complaining. How a barb should be played is entirely subjective, and I imagine you are correct that I am in the minority. If the way I describe IS the appropriate playstyle to have greatest success in EEs and the devs see this as an inappropriate playstyle for a barb they may realize they need to adjust barb dr to deal with damage inflation and maybe barb health as well.

    I think it would be funny if they gave barbs a tribal dance move that healed them to full over 10 seconds with immunity to damage while they wildly flail about doing mediocre aoe damage and intimidating with highest stat(likely strength).

    EDIT: and yeah, even if they change barbs to the way everyone thinks they should be I imagine ill play them differently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    Whats funny is my assertion that a barb can and should be played in such a manner will probably motivate more change than all the complaining. How a barb should be played is entirely subjective, and I imagine you are correct that I am in the minority. If the way I describe IS the appropriate playstyle to have greatest success in EEs and the devs see this as an inappropriate playstyle for a barb they may realize they need to adjust barb dr to deal with damage inflation and maybe barb health as well.

    I think it would be funny if they gave barbs a tribal dance move that healed them to full over 10 seconds with immunity to damage while they wildly flail about doing mediocre aoe damage and intimidating with highest stat(likely strength).

    EDIT: and yeah, even if they change barbs to the way everyone thinks they should be I imagine ill play them differently.
    Calm down, you're only a special snowflake when it comes to putting time on the game but... outside of the game (aka creator). Any power gamer use the same approach which is : "Hmmm, what do I need to clear top content? Yep that's what I'll get."

    The problem comes from Barbs being built around DR (when it used to be meaningful), but the new end game dishing inflated numbers totally invalidates it. DR should stack as much as the damage does.

    Since dodge, incorp and displacement aren't all accessible (to the masses) or capped at a certain %, all there is left to offer a proper mitigation is DR and PRR. Which means that all classes/builds that should be built on DR and PRR (to a smaller extent) are totally owned because it's a static number vs % (PRR isn't but the extra is sometimes not so much worth it). This becomes important in the state of today's EEs.

    PRR could be one way to go to offer melees more defense but since everyone can acquire a bunch of it and it comes with a disminishing return, it is not optimal. It can be too OP or simply too bad. Same can be said for DR.

    Then there's the healing options...
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 06-15-2014 at 10:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Calm down, you're only a special snowflake when it comes to putting time on the game but... outside of the game (aka creator). Any power gamer use the same approach which is : "Hmmm, what do I need to clear top content? Yep that's what I'll get."

    The problem comes from Barbs being built around DR (when it used to be meaningful), but the new end game dishing inflated numbers totally invalidates it. DR should stack as much as the damage does.

    Since dodge, incorp and displacement aren't all accessible (to the masses) or capped at a certain %, all there is left to offer a proper mitigation is DR and PRR. Which means that all classes/builds that should be built on DR and PRR (to a smaller extent) are totally owned because it's a static number vs % (PRR isn't but the extra is sometimes not so much worth it). This becomes important in the state of today's EEs.

    PRR could be one way to go to offer melees more defense but since everyone can acquire a bunch of it and it comes with a disminishing return, it is not optimal. It can be too OP or simply too bad. Same can be said for DR.

    Then there's the healing options...
    Im pretty sure you mistook my meaning, ive found the devs are more likely to change what they personally don't like than respond to complaints, especially when the complaints are "barbs suck at self healing" when it appears that was the intent.

    However if they start seeing vids and hearing people describing how play barbs and get around the rageallday trap they may decide to change barbarians because they very likely wont like an EE barbarian style of play, I imagine its not what anyone at turbine envisioned, its a chess game. The things I like about barbarians in endgame are the things the devs (and a lot of players of pnp) probably wouldn't.

    I like barbs the way they are now, fun class in ee if you ask me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    I grow tired of this now. ive never ever encountered a barbarian that plays like you successfully. honestly, it would be a joy to see you in action. perhaps you could post a vid for me to watch so I can learn a thing or two about barbs since you have posted so many oddball build videos in the past somewhere. you are right about one thing. I do play dumb dumb barbs, but it doesn't mean I am bad at playing them or cant succeed or require a nanny.
    That you've never encountered a certain type of playstyle/build doesn't mean they don't exist and doesn't mean they can't excel. Maybe they only solo, maybe they only play in guilds, maybe there are extremely few of them around and the people who have them don't post/brag about them in forums

    If you personally don't feel barbs are viable at soloing EE when others (myself included) say they can and do, then maybe barb isn't the class you play best? I am an experienced and decent player, but certainly not great. My toons are well built and geared but nowhere near completionists. That goes for my barb too and she flies through all EH and most EE content either solo or in group. In fact EH/EE is often easier than EN since in EN not all mobs in some quests prolong blitz. Yes she is more likely to occasionally die than my more defense-oriented/saves oriented toons, and when soloing I avoid quests with particularly large groups of unavoidable mobs at same time. Still viable build though. And tons of fun imho.

    As for cocoon, I've tried that playstyle on my barb, saw its benefits and drawbacks and personally decided it wasn't for me. Again, my subjective opinion doesn't mean it's not viable. It just meant it didn't fit my playstyle It seems to fit 0100001..s build. Good for him. Beauty of DDO. Diversity of builds and playstyles - don't you agree?

    Back on topic: For me barb's DR really should scale a hell of a lot better than it does currently. Or possibly be integrated in PRR.

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    Its as simple as this, are people playing barbarians? They are probably the least played class now on epic. That alone indicates its broken enough people don't bother with it.
    I can't remember the last time I saw a barb in a group anymore. My own barb is a mule now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post
    Its as simple as this, are people playing barbarians? They are probably the least played class now on epic. That alone indicates its broken enough people don't bother with it.
    I can't remember the last time I saw a barb in a group anymore. My own barb is a mule now.
    They do exist, and people play them, whether for fun or just a PL. They only seem broken for epic because they cannot splash monk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post
    Its as simple as this, are people playing barbarians? They are probably the least played class now on epic. That alone indicates its broken enough people don't bother with it.
    I can't remember the last time I saw a barb in a group anymore. My own barb is a mule now.
    I play my barb in groups of people, I know and generally in groups with a babysitter of whatever kind. But more often than not I find myself playing him in guild or channel groups, not pugs.
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