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  1. #1
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    Default Turbine' has some unfortunate issues

    My wife and I left the game around the time the new AC changes were being done. A few weeks ago nostalgia hit us and we decided to give the game another go. We usually play on subscription and I am a fan of FR lore so we decided to sign up for 3 months and get the expansion.

    First though, I tried logging in to the game to remind myself where we left off, state of chars and plan out the first steps when start playing.

    Coming in to marketplace, I thought my game froze - I was looking at the loading screen for over 10 minutes. When my character appeared in the Marketplace, I was already disconnected. 4 tries later, when my tv show episode, which I started on second loading screen ended I decided to look at forums for solution.

    Googling brought up tons of links to threads where people complain about this exact same issue.

    The surprising thing to me was that there was a solution being offered. The fan-made DDO Preloader. Imagine my surprise when I downloaded it, and 2 minutes later was in control of my wizard.

    Now here is the thing.. this fan-made "patch" to the game was made a YEAR AGO. An entire year during which many players are complaining that they can't log in to your ONLINE game.

    After double checking the dates, and looking at the number of posts of people wondering why the hell the dev team hasn't reproduced this patch as part of official install, my wife and I had another talk: "Do we want to spend another 100+$ on an online game whose management is ignoring a problem like many players being unable to log in for an entire year?"

    Turns out we don't. There is nostalgia, and than there is just abhorrent disregard for one's player base, and the later trumps the former.

    So, Turbine you need to sort out your priorities.
    Last edited by Cordovan; 06-10-2014 at 01:44 PM. Reason: content violation

  2. #2
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    I completely agree.

    I point people in the direction of the Preloader as often as I can, seeing as how its a simple fix and works great.

    The ridiculous thing to me is that its a simple optimization of how the game files are loaded into memory, you'd think Turbine could've done something about it.

    Even now, the Preloader existing means the work is already 90% done for them, all they'd need to do is adjust their loading scheme to match what players created.

    Its a shame because the game is a good game, but there are some very off-putting things about how its run and supported.

  3. #3
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Dont forget this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Produktion_Malphunktion View Post


    If the double log thing is still happening plz share. I'm under the impression it is fixed.

  4. #4
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    /signed

    We all understand that the underlaying issue might be complicated. But why the heck do those devs need to be that grossly customer-unfriendly to not implement the quick & dirty fix until they can resolve what ever causes the problem.

    But that already has been said a 1000 times over here on the boards.

  5. #5
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    Exatly what IVan said. I never experienced the double log on problem. I just had long load times. I got preloader and it stopped.

    They don't include something like preloader because it exists. Free code! If they added it to their launcher, free bugs! So now they can get the best of two worlds: free code and free support. Since the maker of preloader has to patch it every time the launcher is patched.

    Also what it does the launcher cannot do right now and would make it easier for hackers get into ddo's dat files if that activity was part of the game.

  6. #6
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    On the other side of the table, the patch does NOT fix everyone's double log in issue, it fixed mine but not my husbands. Even with the patch he has to log in twice. We have no idea why, been over both computers with a fine tooth comb looking for the difference. I know other people it hasn't helped for. I know about the same amount of players who do have the issue at all and log in fine with no preloader. Those are the hardest problems to solve, the ones that don't affect everyone, and not everyone in the same way.
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  7. #7
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    It's been over a year and we haven't even got a confirmation from a dev ackowledging the problem. They must be aware, as this issue is on the forums all the time. Cordovan, if you're reading this could you explain please?

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    It's been over a year and we haven't even got a confirmation from a dev ackowledging the problem. They must be aware, as this issue is on the forums all the time. Cordovan, if you're reading this could you explain please?
    If this was true how could the poster have quoted a Turbine producer calling for people to report in if the issue is ongoing a few posts up?
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  9. #9
    Time Bandit & Hero SirShen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rackot View Post
    My wife and I left the game around the time the new AC changes were being done. A few weeks ago nostalgia hit us and we decided to give the game another go. We usually play on subscription and I am a fan of FR lore so we decided to sign up for 3 months and get the expansion.

    First though, I tried logging in to the game to remind myself where we left off, state of chars and plan out the first steps when start playing.

    Coming in to marketplace, I thought my game froze - I was looking at the loading screen for over 10 minutes. When my character appeared in the Marketplace, I was already disconnected. 4 tries later, when my tv show episode, which I started on second loading screen ended I decided to look at forums for solution.

    Googling brought up tons of links to threads where people complain about this exact same issue.

    The surprising thing to me was that there was a solution being offered. The fan-made DDO Preloader. Imagine my surprise when I downloaded it, and 2 minutes later was in control of my wizard.

    Now here is the thing.. this fan-made "patch" to the game was made a YEAR AGO. An entire year during which many players are complaining that they can't log in to your ONLINE game.

    After double checking the dates, and looking at the number of posts of people wondering why the hell the dev team hasn't reproduced this patch as part of official install, my wife and I had another talk: "Do we want to spend another 100+$ on an online game whose management is ignoring a problem like many players being unable to log in for an entire year?"

    Turns out we don't. There is nostalgia, and than there is just abhorrent disregard for one's player base, and the later trumps the former.

    So, Turbine you need to sort out your priorities. Those layoffs you had at beginning of the year - you apparently didn't fire the right people, since half a year later, **** like this, still isn't fixed.
    All devs play ddo on a Solid State Drive so never see this log in problem. So they dont seems to care. Really this is the only game were i have this problem and also the only game were i need to close the game down using Ctrl+Alt+Del.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityTurtle View Post
    If this was true how could the poster have quoted a Turbine producer calling for people to report in if the issue is ongoing a few posts up?
    I said they have never AKNOWLEDGED the problem. AKA they still don't believe that it exists. That quote is not aknowledging the problem, the dev is saying he doesn't believe the problem exists and please report otherwise. And we have, there have been countless posts on this forum about the problem and myself and others have sent in many bug reports.

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    I said they have never AKNOWLEDGED the problem. AKA they still don't believe that it exists. That quote is not aknowledging the problem, the dev is saying he doesn't believe the problem exists and please report otherwise. And we have, there have been countless posts on this forum about the problem and myself and others have sent in many bug reports.
    NO, he said if it's still happening to report it. That means he knew it was happening but thought it was fixed. With intermittent problems, this is not unusual. Just ask the cable guy whose been to my house five times in two weeks trying to fix the signal issue or the tech at my job whose ranting right now about a customers issue that is never still going on when he gets there to track down.

    I wonder how many people still take the time continuously report it with as much information about the end user computer as possible in case it is a end user problem (which would make sense given my husband and my splite results) vs. saying "It's all over the forum, they can't just magically fix it"
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  12. #12
    Hopeless Romantic dunklezhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rackot View Post
    Those layoffs you had at beginning of the year - you apparently didn't fire the right people, since half a year later, **** like this, still isn't fixed.
    Those were real people who lost their jobs. Their firing was never going to lead to 'improvements' unless you count the raw balance sheet. Maybe. Depending on how bad the player drop off since then REALLY is.

    It's not the fault of those left behind - very likely now understaffed and even less likely to be able to deal with backlogs than before, not to mention missing the friends they used to work with. Plus if it wasn't for all the Yawngotten Realms Epic focus we've had to put up with (yay for an epic Eberron something tomorrow!) we've actually got some good additions and progress over the last year so its not like those left behind are 'bad'.

    I agree with the rest of your post, I don't think Turbine really get how many people are put off staying/returning by the bugs and such (I've had two friends start and stop DDO a couple of times, each time they quit because of bugs. Except last time. Last time they quit because of Akami, and they won't be coming back while it's any part of the delivery system. They really WANT to love this game, I've never known them go back to any other game they deliberately quit). I'd certainly dearly love to know the sorts of bugs that are prioritised over the log in issues (which are supposedly fixed now, although it could just be that everyone uses preloader so Turbine doesn't get any bug reports). It would be cool if they published all the non-exploit bugs and just got us to vote on what we wanted first.... But really - effectively asking for more people to get fired isn't going to help anyone, and you're likely to upset the *wrong* folks at Turbine - namely those people left behind who actually have to deal with US, and who are likely the ones who's actual friends got fired. We don't need those people upset. Aim higher, and be more sympathetic. Produktion Malphunktion is the highest you're likely to get here - he can't control how much cash WB give him, but he at least has their ear.
    Last edited by dunklezhan; 06-10-2014 at 12:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The best of the best DDO players generally overperform when given a real challenge

  13. #13
    Community Member Psiandron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    I said they have never AKNOWLEDGED the problem. AKA they still don't believe that it exists. That quote is not aknowledging the problem, the dev is saying he doesn't believe the problem exists and please report otherwise. And we have, there have been countless posts on this forum about the problem and myself and others have sent in many bug reports.
    Actually, Jerry acknowledged it in the lunchtime stream from Ghallanda while doing the Harbinger quests. He said that Turbine was looking into it, but didn't know at the time precisely what was causing the issue. He also stated that he had had it happen to him a few times from his home computer. That was a while back, March, iirc. Since then Maj made his above-quoted statement.

    Personally, I don't have this problem, but I have friends and guildies that do. It take some of them 10-20 minutes to get an established log-in, and as someone pointed out above, the pre-loader works for some, but not all (actually, another thing Jerry mentioned was that he had tried the pre-loader and it had not fixed the issue for him).
    Quote Originally Posted by MalkavianX View Post
    and then dropped it like a burning kitten

  14. #14
    Community Member ComfortablyNumb's Avatar
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    I didn't have an issue, other than getting booted 5 mins after logging on every single time. However, since launch of U22 the first time I log in, all works as usual until it switches from loading screen to, in latest case harbour but has been ship also, then it freezes with burst of text (hp regen etc) also frozen. not patient enough to wait to see if time clears it. Next log in all is fine.

    Is this the same problem others are having? I don't use pre-loader, never needed it, or is this a 'new' log in issue?

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikojin View Post
    They don't include something like preloader because it exists. Free code! If they added it to their launcher, free bugs! So now they can get the best of two worlds: free code and free support. Since the maker of preloader has to patch it every time the launcher is patched.
    Ah, no. Wanesa doesn't have to patch the preloader for every update provided the launcher executable and dat files retain the same names and location. The preloader does exactly one thing: It caches client_gamelogic.dat in memory by utilizing the Windows prefetching memory management scheme. It does this by opening the file for exclusive reads, allocating enough memory to hold it and chucking it in the malloc space as fast as possible. It then deallocates the memory, closes the file and spawns the launcher. As a matter of fact, here's the relevent code:

    Code:
    void preloadFile(HWND hDlg, _TCHAR *fname, bool ignoreError) {
    
        _TCHAR buff[1000];
        setPhase(hDlg, IDC_PHASE2);
        HANDLE h = CreateFile(fname,GENERIC_READ,FILE_SHARE_READ|FILE_SHARE_WRITE,0,OPEN_EXISTING,0,0);
        if (h == 0 || h == INVALID_HANDLE_VALUE) {
            _stprintf_s(buff,_T("Can't open file '%s'\n"),fname);
            if (!ignoreError) showError(hDlg,buff);
            return;
        }
        HANDLE hmap = CreateFileMapping(h,0,PAGE_READONLY ,0,0,0);
        CloseHandle(h);
        if (hmap == 0 || hmap == INVALID_HANDLE_VALUE)
        {
            _stprintf_s(buff,_T("Can't open mapping for file '%s'\n"),fname);
            if (!ignoreError) showError(hDlg,buff);
            return;
        }
        void *k = MapViewOfFile(hmap,FILE_MAP_READ ,0,0,0);
        if (k == 0) {
            _stprintf_s(buff,_T("Can't map file '%s'\n"),fname);
            if (!ignoreError) showError(hDlg,buff);
            CloseHandle(hmap);
            return;
        }
    
    
        MEMORY_BASIC_INFORMATION inf;
        VirtualQuery(k,&inf,sizeof(inf));
    
    
        byte b = 0;
        for (DWORD i = 0; i < inf.RegionSize; i+=4096) {
            b = b ^ readMapFile(k,i);
            if ((i & 0xFFFF) == 0)setProgress(hDlg,i/1024,inf.RegionSize/1024);
        }
        setProgress(hDlg,b,b);
        UnmapViewOfFile(k);
        CloseHandle(hmap);
    }
    
    
    VOID CALLBACK RefreshMapping(HWND hDlg, UINT msg, UINT_PTR even, DWORD tm) {
        preloadFile(hDlg,_T("client_gamelogic.dat"),true);
        setPhase(hDlg,IDC_PHASE3);
    }
    
    
    void launchGame(HWND hDlg) {
        STARTUPINFO nfo;
        ZeroMemory(&nfo,sizeof(nfo));
        PROCESS_INFORMATION pi;
        nfo.cb = sizeof(nfo);
        BOOL b = CreateProcess(_T("TurbineLauncher.exe"),_T("TurbineLauncher.exe -invoker"),0,0,0,0,0,0,&nfo,&pi);
        if (b == FALSE) {
            showError(hDlg,_T("Cannot start launcher"));
        }
        setPhase(hDlg,IDC_PHASE3);
        SetTimer(hDlg,1,10000,&RefreshMapping);
        while (FindWindow(0,_T("Dungeons and Dragons Online")) == 0 && WaitForSingleObject(pi.hProcess,0) == WAIT_TIMEOUT) {
            WaitMessage();
            yeld();
        }
    
    
    }
    That's all it does. It does this quite well in about 50 lines of code, with error handling, all of which could be added to the launcher in about two minutes including a full recompile. Even if Turbine added a new checkbox in the launcher to toggle the functionality it would take maybe 15 minutes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seikojin View Post
    Also what it does the launcher cannot do right now and would make it easier for hackers get into ddo's dat files if that activity was part of the game.
    This is utterly false. One does not even need the preloader to recreate the same functionality. Simply copying client_gamelogic.dat from one fixed storage device to another is enough to make Windows cache it. If doing that allowed hackers easier access to dat files (which can be opened in just about any text/hex editor, by the way), having such knowledge wouldn't do them much good unless they are looking to pull out the various resource assets.

    There is really no reason, other than from a possible support standpoint, why Turbine should not include a similar caching algorithm in the launcher. It would eliminate most, not all but most, of the double login issues players have. The other option is to redesign their entire resource loading mechanism to prevent mechanical HDs from thrashing like a shark in a net as they are beaten to death by thousands of small, simultaneous random access read calls which, apparently, are made to specifically cross block allocation boundaries as much as possible.
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  16. #16
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rackot View Post
    The surprising thing to me was that there was a solution being offered. The fan-made DDO Preloader. Imagine my surprise when I downloaded it, and 2 minutes later was in control of my wizard.

    Now here is the thing.. this fan-made "patch" to the game was made a YEAR AGO. An entire year during which many players are complaining that they can't log in to your ONLINE game.

    After double checking the dates, and looking at the number of posts of people wondering why the hell the dev team hasn't reproduced this patch as part of official install, my wife and I had another talk: "Do we want to spend another 100+$ on an online game whose management is ignoring a problem like many players being unable to log in for an entire year?"
    FYI, that portion would be most likely handled by the engine team and not DDO development team.
    Engine team... well best as I can tell has $0 budget, and has never been given anything to fix stuff that "works".

  17. #17
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikojin View Post
    Also what it does the launcher cannot do right now and would make it easier for hackers get into ddo's dat files if that activity was part of the game.
    You have no idea how easy it is to get into DDO dat files.

    They are basically of the same format as the AC2 Dat files... And this format is well documented, there's even tools for it.

    The Double Login problem lies in how those files are read from a Hard Disk. That is sequentially...
    And at the initial load of the game it's a nightmare when it comes to low level IO throughput. The Seek time for each byte is a killer.
    What the Pre-loader ( or moving to a SSD drive ) do is make the best use possible of the data transfer... Either by bypassing it through a caching in main memory ( Pre-loader ) or through a system that has an inherent seek time that can me measured in clock cycles instead of micro-seconds ( SSD Drives, 1GHz CPU = 1 nano second Clock Cycle... a 2.4GHz CPU means a 0,46 nanosecond clock sycle ).

    The DAT files are too big, badly indexed and cluttered with obsolete/redundant information... They could use some streamlining, but that means finding somebody that has a clue at how they work and at how they are invoked from the game.
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  18. #18
    Community Member Psiandron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flavilandile View Post
    You have no idea how easy it is to get into DDO dat files.

    They are basically of the same format as the AC2 Dat files... And this format is well documented, there's even tools for it.

    The Double Login problem lies in how those files are read from a Hard Disk. That is sequentially...
    And at the initial load of the game it's a nightmare when it comes to low level IO throughput. The Seek time for each byte is a killer.
    What the Pre-loader ( or moving to a SSD drive ) do is make the best use possible of the data transfer... Either by bypassing it through a caching in main memory ( Pre-loader ) or through a system that has an inherent seek time that can me measured in clock cycles instead of micro-seconds ( SSD Drives, 1GHz CPU = 1 nano second Clock Cycle... a 2.4GHz CPU means a 0,46 nanosecond clock sycle ).

    The DAT files are too big, badly indexed and cluttered with obsolete/redundant information... They could use some streamlining, but that means finding somebody that has a clue at how they work and at how they are invoked from the game.
    That's interesting, but what then accounts for the fairly high number of people who have the double login issue, but who unfortunately find no relief from the pre-loader?
    Quote Originally Posted by MalkavianX View Post
    and then dropped it like a burning kitten

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psiandron View Post
    That's interesting, but what then accounts for the fairly high number of people who have the double login issue, but who unfortunately find no relief from the pre-loader?
    The preloader is not a magic bullet. It works well in specific set of cases. However, if disk access requests are so numerous that they are causing wait states in other devices, namely NICs, no amount of pre-caching the primary resource index file is going to help. Flavilandile is absolutely correct in that the resource files are poorly indexed and accessed. Five years ago a simple file defrag would be sufficient to speed load times. With the addition of so many new and redundant assets, players with slow HDs, little memory or poor network connections are going to have a bad time.
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  20. #20
    Community Member Ovrad's Avatar
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    It's mind-boggling that this still isn't fixed. How do they think new players will react when the game kicks them out before they even start playing?... Most of them won't bother searching the forums for the pre-loader, they'll just quit before they have even started.
    We want more Monster Manuals.

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