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Thread: Paladin Changes

  1. #501
    Community Member Jerren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MangLord View Post
    In the effort to make changes to "underpowered" classes, I'm seeing a lot of argument between DDO players and PnP players that play DDO. DDO players call for more, while DnD players want the system to reflect the core principles of DnD. We're way past that. My PnP characters rarely had stats above 20, so the argument kinda falls apart there. My current level 4 elven warpriest has a 22 str already. My rogues didn't care much about high CON in DnD, but I will die in the harbor if I dump CON. The problem becomes where to draw the line. Does the development team scale back to reflect a more PnP approach, or further embrace DDO as a separate entity with its own metrics? Unless the division becomes more clear, certain classes will always fall behind.

    I'm a DDO player initially drawn to the game by a personal history of PnP, but I've accepted the conventions of the game in an MMO state, and would prefer the development team to either scale back towards PnP, or allow all classes to abandon PnP rule restrictions in an effort to comply with DDO conventions and mechanics and become viable assets to a party.

    What seems reasonable to a PnP player seems to be generally considered inadequate to a DDO player. I suggest the team pick a side, because trying to hit the middle is an impossible task. The problem is that, while everything is based on the concept of DnD, DDO has developed an inflated system that PnP rules can't address without "house rules". Changes to paladin (and every other class) need to reflect this. What works for normal difficulty, my basis for more pure DnD rules, can be horribly underpowered when attempting harder difficulties. Elite is where its at with DDO, lets face it. Normal is fine. I prefer to play Hard on epic levels, and I feel like all classes should be viable on EH at least. The premise for EE should be "pro only" instead of "savant" if you prefer to play an "off class". I'm fine with it being very hard, but it should be doable for a player that knows how to play their class, instead of just following a recipe of evasion and DPS. If that's the way the developers want to do it, fine, but a pro should be able to bring a dwarven stalwart defender into EE if that's the class they're best at, use their abilities tactically, and have a good chance of staying alive. PrEs, feats and destinies need to reflect that or continue to be laughably gimpy.
    I agree with what you are saying for the most part. I still don't believe however that the way to fix it is to change the feats like DG and evasion. Feats, PNP rules, should be left alone and changes should be made to 'house rules', the part that DDO has added and has created the inbalance. If devs are going to stray from the core rules even further they may as well just rename the game to something like WoW.

  2. #502
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    1 would not change it's usefulness
    Of course it would!

    Considering the stats, Fire/Air are supposed to be the offensive stances, and Earth/Water to be the defensive ones. Moving the extra crit to Fire would force everyone that currently uses Earth Stance to choose between the extra defense or the extra crit. One of the major problems with earth stance right now is that you have the best defense AND offense in the same stance. Turbine should split them up, and considering how Air is vastly more used than Fire, Fire seems like a better choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    2 god no. The design should have been a minimum character level (like now) and for t2 to require 1 monk, t3 6 monk and grand master monk ultimately need min level 18 with 12 monk.
    That would also work.

    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    3 also not needed
    Absolutely needed. Monk 2 get 4% dodge from class, then extra 2% at 6, and never again. It is extremely frontloaded. For comparasion, rogues get their dodge bonus at levels 4, 6, 8, 12, 16 and 20. You need 12 rogue levels to match the class dodge bonus that a monk 2 gets.

    Add to the pile that they can use the two bonus feats to get Dodge and Mobility, earning 5 extra dodge on top of that. Now that Toughness is no longer a requirement to every character, those two have been popular choices for some weird and strange reason.

    =========================

    Anyway, this is a pally thread. I'll stop pestering about monk nerfs here.
    Main: Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist [<o>]

    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma

    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  3. #503
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    Angry what will it be??????

    We are also considering a controversial change as well:
    Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.
    We'd like feedback on both the good changes and possibility of a Divine Grace change which is more restrictive.



    Can we just cut to the chase please.

    Are you nerfing divine grace or not!!! I am eager to either ITR my main to a BF or (nearly as satisfying) have a nuclear RAGE QUIT and move on to pathfinder.

  4. #504
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default Disagree

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    You learn to adapt. In any MMO, if you come up with something that's too good you can expect it to be nerfed. Maybe it's time to start thinking about a new build then

    P.S. IMO, Paladin splash is as broken as monk splash. PnP DMs realized this, that's why all the multiclass restrictions were in place for these classes.
    Divine Grace isn't too good, it's player saves that are too terrible in content that matters.

    Facing CR70+ mobs with unlimited mana and absurd DC damage spells...people turned to paladin splashes, forsaking things like caster levels, capstones, etc.

    It's not an exploit, it's a weighed decision.
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  5. #505
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default Mounts please

    Quote Originally Posted by MadCookieQueen View Post
    these are great...but I have only one concern:
    Paladin Special Mount
    Though MadCookieQueen made some facetious comments in here, I have to agree--introducing a companion mechanic for Paladins that did things like:

    increase run/walk speed
    confer sprint boosts while alive
    had lots of slots (more than iron defender or wolf companions)
    did some dps here and there (i.e. give it a "kick" command)

    would not only be awesome, it'd be a low hanging fruit example of making paladins cooler and better.

    The mechanics are already there. I know they're F2P, but if wizards can get a skeleton knight, paladins and rangers should get their due companions.

    The paladin mount should be the best companion though. It's a freaking horse.
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  6. #506
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    I can't say I care for the proposed changes. Tacking on two new mechanics out of thin air seems like an overly complex bandaid solution. Better to just give a bit of a buff to existing Paladin DPS options.

    Some things that I think would help.

    1. Have KoTC cores apply to all Evil Undead/Outsiders/Aberrations instead of forcing a choice between Undead/Outsiders
    2. Change the Holy Sword spell to an imbue that adds Holy Burst to whatever weapon the Paladin chooses.
    3. Buff Exalted Smite to grant a larger Crit Range / Crit Multiplier boost. Making it top out at +6 Crit Range and +3 multiplier instead of +2/+2 would put some actual power into smiting. The current stats are a bit low for something that costs 6AP and applies to an ability with very limited uses.
    4. Adjust the Smite mechanics to make it harder to waste smites.
    5. Add a faster smite regen enhancement to KoTC.
    6. Add some boosts to Shield Bashing to the Sacred Defender Tree.
    7. Have Tier 3 of Sacred Shield Mastery grant Proficiency with Tower Shields.
    8. Give the Paladin a small number of bonus feats. I'd suggest letting them choose an extra feat at levels 7, 13, and 19.
    9. Add Cure Critical to the Paladins L4 spell list, move Cure Serious to L3 and Cure Moderate to L2.

  7. #507
    2015 DDO Players Council B0ltdrag0n's Avatar
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    The previous post is a good start to the issue
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  8. #508
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default Agreed!

    Some comments

    Quote Originally Posted by Nadion View Post
    I can't say I care for the proposed changes. Tacking on two new mechanics out of thin air seems like an overly complex bandaid solution. Better to just give a bit of a buff to existing Paladin DPS options.

    Some things that I think would help.

    1. Have KoTC cores apply to all Evil Undead/Outsiders/Aberrations instead of forcing a choice between Undead/Outsiders
    Makes perfect sense.
    2. Change the Holy Sword spell to an imbue that adds Holy Burst to whatever weapon the Paladin chooses.
    Again perfect sense and applies to many mobs but not all, i.e. not overpowered
    3. Buff Exalted Smite to grant a larger Crit Range / Crit Multiplier boost. Making it top out at +6 Crit Range and +3 multiplier instead of +2/+2 would put some actual power into smiting. The current stats are a bit low for something that costs 6AP and applies to an ability with very limited uses.
    4. Adjust the Smite mechanics to make it harder to waste smites.
    5. Add a faster smite regen enhancement to KoTC.
    Smites need a lot of work, and the above three would merely make them functiona, not at all overpowered.
    6. Add some boosts to Shield Bashing to the Sacred Defender Tree.
    7. Have Tier 3 of Sacred Shield Mastery grant Proficiency with Tower Shields.
    This is vital and a big difference between paladins gasping for feats and fighters swimming in them
    8. Give the Paladin a small number of bonus feats. I'd suggest letting them choose an extra feat at levels 7, 13, and 19.
    9. Add Cure Critical to the Paladins L4 spell list, move Cure Serious to L3 and Cure Moderate to L2.
    I'd also like to add:
    10. Make Angelskin grant a 5 PRR bonus typed as "celestial"
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  9. #509
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadion View Post
    I can't say I care for the proposed changes. Tacking on two new mechanics out of thin air seems like an overly complex bandaid solution. Better to just give a bit of a buff to existing Paladin DPS options.

    Some things that I think would help.

    1. Have KoTC cores apply to all Evil Undead/Outsiders/Aberrations instead of forcing a choice between Undead/Outsiders
    2. Change the Holy Sword spell to an imbue that adds Holy Burst to whatever weapon the Paladin chooses.
    3. Buff Exalted Smite to grant a larger Crit Range / Crit Multiplier boost. Making it top out at +6 Crit Range and +3 multiplier instead of +2/+2 would put some actual power into smiting. The current stats are a bit low for something that costs 6AP and applies to an ability with very limited uses.
    4. Adjust the Smite mechanics to make it harder to waste smites.
    5. Add a faster smite regen enhancement to KoTC.
    6. Add some boosts to Shield Bashing to the Sacred Defender Tree.
    7. Have Tier 3 of Sacred Shield Mastery grant Proficiency with Tower Shields.
    8. Give the Paladin a small number of bonus feats. I'd suggest letting them choose an extra feat at levels 7, 13, and 19.
    9. Add Cure Critical to the Paladins L4 spell list, move Cure Serious to L3 and Cure Moderate to L2.
    this is a pretty good list, but i just have a problem with a couple of them.

    more or less, DDO has gone by the same level up progression as in PnP. i don't think the devs should stray from that by adding bonus feats for Paladins.

    if CCW was to be added to the level 4 spells list, there would be an outcry. i play a Ranger, so why shouldn't they get CCW in the level 4 spell list too? i could foresee suggestions by others saying they want the spell lists adjusted and certain spells lowered also for their classes. the reasoning would be, if the devs did it for Paladins than they should be able to do it for everyone else and why should they get special attention just to boost needed Paladin power. CSW with devotion slotted and other things to boost it can be pretty decent already, but Paladins can have endless LOHs in epics. CSW is plenty sufficient for heroics and epics has several options that Paladins could twist like Renewal and Cocoon if the spells and LOHs weren't enough for them. personally, i think CSW and regenerating LOHs is fine.

    not sure what you mean by 4. Adjust the Smite mechanics to make it harder to waste smites.

  10. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    i don't think the devs should stray from that by adding bonus feats for Paladins.
    The only classes who dont get some form of bonus feats are the Paladin and Sorcerer. the Bard gets multiple bonus ones in swashbuckler, rogue has their extra class features, FVS has several bonus feats.

  11. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    not sure what you mean by 4. Adjust the Smite mechanics to make it harder to waste smites.
    If a mob moves or dies as you're pressing the smite button the smite will still be expended even though its not actually swinging at anything. Would be better if it wouldn't trigger when there is nothing to hit, or functioned as a buff to you next melee attack.

  12. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    this is a pretty good list, but i just have a problem with a couple of them.

    ...snip...

    not sure what you mean by 4. Adjust the Smite mechanics to make it harder to waste smites.
    That list is pretty much along the lines of what I am wanting them to do too. By #4 he means that it happens way too often that you use a smite and nothing happens, it "misses".
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  13. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    if CCW was to be added to the level 4 spells list, there would be an outcry. i play a Ranger, so why shouldn't they get CCW in the level 4 spell list too?
    Rangers get most if not all of their combat feats auto-granted, and can afford to take multiple metamagic feats to make that CSW work. Paladins can barely fit in the necessary combat feats.
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

  14. #514
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadion View Post
    If a mob moves or dies as you're pressing the smite button the smite will still be expended even though its not actually swinging at anything. Would be better if it wouldn't trigger when there is nothing to hit, or functioned as a buff to you next melee attack.
    ok I see. I hate it when that happens!

    to be fair, the same could be said about any clicky you use.

  15. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    ok I see. I hate it when that happens!

    to be fair, the same could be said about any clicky you use.
    It seems to happen more often on the smites though, I dunno if it is an animation thing or what but if your not careful they tend to step to the side as you push your smite button. Which is why I tend to make sure someone else has aggro of the critter and attack it from behind, hard to do of your tanking though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  16. #516
    Community Member Psiandron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadion View Post
    I can't say I care for the proposed changes. Tacking on two new mechanics out of thin air seems like an overly complex bandaid solution. Better to just give a bit of a buff to existing Paladin DPS options.

    Some things that I think would help.

    1. Have KoTC cores apply to all Evil Undead/Outsiders/Aberrations instead of forcing a choice between Undead/Outsiders
    2. Change the Holy Sword spell to an imbue that adds Holy Burst to whatever weapon the Paladin chooses.
    3. Buff Exalted Smite to grant a larger Crit Range / Crit Multiplier boost. Making it top out at +6 Crit Range and +3 multiplier instead of +2/+2 would put some actual power into smiting. The current stats are a bit low for something that costs 6AP and applies to an ability with very limited uses.
    4. Adjust the Smite mechanics to make it harder to waste smites.
    5. Add a faster smite regen enhancement to KoTC.
    6. Add some boosts to Shield Bashing to the Sacred Defender Tree.
    7. Have Tier 3 of Sacred Shield Mastery grant Proficiency with Tower Shields.
    8. Give the Paladin a small number of bonus feats. I'd suggest letting them choose an extra feat at levels 7, 13, and 19.
    9. Add Cure Critical to the Paladins L4 spell list, move Cure Serious to L3 and Cure Moderate to L2.
    Okay, I have to say that there seems to be a lot good here, especially as it primarily builds/adjusts on what's already there.

    I wouldn't mind seeing FoM (level 2) and Aid, Mass (level 4) added to the pally spells list either. Really could use more at 2nd level spells, but nothing else comes to mind off-hand.

    I think that two feats (13and19) are probably fine. Paladins do get a lot that should be considered as a granted feats (LoH, Remove Disease which is easy to buff to add greater restoration, DG, Smites, Turns because that's where DM comes from, Divine Health, and Fear Immunity); however, as some of those have been nerfed, some are of marginal importance and the fact that pallies get no mount in this game I think that two bonus feats is not too much to ask. If Turbine went so far as to un-nerf DM and return it to a direct add to damage rather than a STR buff and kept the 30s/60s/120s timer on it I'd say that adding one bonus feat might be enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by MalkavianX View Post
    and then dropped it like a burning kitten

  17. #517
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadion View Post
    I can't say I care for the proposed changes. Tacking on two new mechanics out of thin air seems like an overly complex bandaid solution. Better to just give a bit of a buff to existing Paladin DPS options.

    Some things that I think would help.

    1. Have KoTC cores apply to all Evil Undead/Outsiders/Aberrations instead of forcing a choice between Undead/Outsiders
    2. Change the Holy Sword spell to an imbue that adds Holy Burst to whatever weapon the Paladin chooses.
    3. Buff Exalted Smite to grant a larger Crit Range / Crit Multiplier boost. Making it top out at +6 Crit Range and +3 multiplier instead of +2/+2 would put some actual power into smiting. The current stats are a bit low for something that costs 6AP and applies to an ability with very limited uses.
    4. Adjust the Smite mechanics to make it harder to waste smites.
    5. Add a faster smite regen enhancement to KoTC.
    6. Add some boosts to Shield Bashing to the Sacred Defender Tree.
    7. Have Tier 3 of Sacred Shield Mastery grant Proficiency with Tower Shields.
    8. Give the Paladin a small number of bonus feats. I'd suggest letting them choose an extra feat at levels 7, 13, and 19.
    9. Add Cure Critical to the Paladins L4 spell list, move Cure Serious to L3 and Cure Moderate to L2.
    That really is a fantastic list.

    I may not agree with some of the specifics like fixing smites by making them crit more often and harder I would prefer them to just do more damage +x% but either way the idea is the same fix smites.

    The core ideas for any Paladin buffs and changes are

    1) Make the trees better specifically KotC
    2) Make Smites worth using
    3) Address lame spells
    4) Address that the class is feat starved

  18. #518
    Community Member bennyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadion View Post
    I can't say I care for the proposed changes. Tacking on two new mechanics out of thin air seems like an overly complex bandaid solution. Better to just give a bit of a buff to existing Paladin DPS options.

    Some things that I think would help.

    1. Have KoTC cores apply to all Evil Undead/Outsiders/Aberrations instead of forcing a choice between Undead/Outsiders
    2. Change the Holy Sword spell to an imbue that adds Holy Burst to whatever weapon the Paladin chooses.
    3. Buff Exalted Smite to grant a larger Crit Range / Crit Multiplier boost. Making it top out at +6 Crit Range and +3 multiplier instead of +2/+2 would put some actual power into smiting. The current stats are a bit low for something that costs 6AP and applies to an ability with very limited uses.
    4. Adjust the Smite mechanics to make it harder to waste smites.
    5. Add a faster smite regen enhancement to KoTC.
    6. Add some boosts to Shield Bashing to the Sacred Defender Tree.
    7. Have Tier 3 of Sacred Shield Mastery grant Proficiency with Tower Shields.
    8. Give the Paladin a small number of bonus feats. I'd suggest letting them choose an extra feat at levels 7, 13, and 19.
    9. Add Cure Critical to the Paladins L4 spell list, move Cure Serious to L3 and Cure Moderate to L2.
    I agree with everything from 1 to 8, but 9 would cause an outcry from *cough* Rangers *cough*

    overall, this list nailed it.

  19. #519
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Rangers get most if not all of their combat feats auto-granted, and can afford to take multiple metamagic feats to make that CSW work. Paladins can barely fit in the necessary combat feats.
    With the way Rangers have improved since the enhancement pass, EDs, double strike and a bunch of other things, they could have Rangers choose between ranged or TWF.

    I guess it would depend what is meant by "bonus feats". Are we talking auto granted or additional feats like fighters get? I've personally never had a problem getting in all the necessary feats, human or not.

  20. #520
    Community Member lugoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    Greetings,

    We have been going through player feedback and one of the concerns is that there is no compelling reason to level a Paladin past the early levels. While we hope the changes to armor and shield will help with this, we are looking for feedback on additional changes to make the class more compelling at higher levels.


    We are also considering a controversial change as well:
    Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

    We want good saving throws to be a class feature of Paladins and a reason to go to higher level in the class. At the same time we don't want players to feel that there is no reason to increase your Paladin level beyond two or three. This change will provide an excellent +8 to all saving throws for a two level splash into Paladin and allow that saving throw bonus to increase as the Paladin levels.



    We'd like feedback on both the good changes and possibility of a Divine Grace change which is more restrictive.

    Sev~
    I don't think people stop taking Paladin levels because of a lack of saves. They stop taking Paladin levels because of a lack of dps. You are adding some dps, but I don't think it will be enough to excite people enough to play Paladins. I don't think relying on damage on a 20 is going to cut it.

    In other words : Add more damage!

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