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Thread: Paladin Changes

  1. #481
    Community Member tralfaz81's Avatar
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    This will probably be an unpopular suggestion but how about instead of gimping paladins you just change the alignment restrictions to pale masters? I personally think its kind of silly they get to use basically death/undead magic with a lawful good alignment and, lets be painfully honest, they're the ones who benefit the most from the paladin splash. With the proposed changes, you're giving paladins a nerf of their strongest feature to try and nerf another class. Just be direct and change the alignment restrictions for that build.
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  2. #482
    Community Member Jerren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    I consider the fixation on the desire for a mechanic that barely functions at best and that requires significant resources or a total rebuild of the game to function properly a worthless piece of suggestion that shouldnt be discussed when more pressing and valuable concerns could be brought up instead of demanding a total rebuild of the entire game. Would it be nice to have a mechanic that has existed since the beginning of DnD to finally work as intended? yes. Is it currently or could it potentially be worth the investment ever? No.
    I disagree. The whole game should be brought back to it's origins instead of boosted for the min/maxers. All of the monsters DC's have been boosted to give min/maxers more challenge. In some cases this works out all right, in other cases it has totally broken things that should be effective in D&D but are not. What gives you the right to say that this is not worth fixing? I get the feeling that you are one of those people that shoehorn clerics into 'heal me and do nothing else' and any cleric that would dare turn undead and possibly steal your kill is bad and deserves to be flogged. I personally never play clerics, and never will, because most people in this game think that the cleric should stand, balls in hand, and do absolutely nothing but heal them, how boring! Same thing goes for paladin, block with shield, intimidate, do nothing....boring!

    Really, when that is what is expected of a class, why would anyone in their right mind play the class? You want a healbot? Get a friggin hireling. You want a bad ass that can heal you and destroy a majority of the EVIL creature or undead that you confront and leave just a few that you must confront get a REAL cleric or paladin! This game does neither justice in that respect and never has but that does not mean that it should not be fixed! Shame on you!

  3. #483
    Community Member Jerren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    the reality is KotC shouldnt be an independant tree from DoS.

    Realistically it is itself a tree based around defending people as much as DoS is, just through stopping the threat instead of just stopping it from getting to those it intends to harm. The PrCs in PnP arent exactly that mechanically rich either. KotC has extra damage, improved saves and a spell list. HotD is one of 2 semi-capable of using turn classes and progresses the entry class's spellcasting. it gives some really good protections as well. Then bring back the Defender of Syberies name


    We also need to go back and get much better classes for the offensive combat PrC. Fist of Raziel gives multiple rider effects to smite evil, 5 more smite evil attempts, and 9/10ths casting progression. Ruby Knight Vindicator gives the benefits of being a crusader (a more mechanically sound but significantly less flexible paladin), 8/10ths casting, and multiple turn undead powered abilities which are fantastically effective. Its not like Tome of battle is outside of the things that they do because most of what makes monks really good in this are based off of abilities from that book. Name it Pious templar

    Personally i want a caster prestige because in most games paladins can function as the tank, Dps or healer with some offense. Personally id also use the Bone Knight from eberron as the base of the PrC because the class presents aspects of DnD which are rarely explored. Combine it with Divine crusader (complete divine, not 4th/EDs)(because no to Ur-priest) and grey guard or blackguard. have an enhancement that lets you trade smites for mana with this. Call it Bone knight
    The problem as I see it is the PRE's as they currently stand are broken. I can't think of one PRE that gives me bonuses at level 1 much less 5 of them in the core rules. The old enhancement system was better, unless you want to min/max, which seems the direction that Turbine has gone. Now that peeps are screaming about splasing they want to nerf innate abilities to a class, feats, that the class is totally entitled to rather than fix their broken enhancement system! Divine Grace is just the tip of the iceburg and for me will be the last straw because I can already see nerfs coming for evasion on monks and rogues.

    Turbine wants and has asked for this multi-class/splash nightmare. Monks and Paladins who change classes, in the core rules, can never return to their Monk/Paladin class. If they would follow this simple rule it would have avoided, or reduced, a lot of the exploiter builds. Both Monks and Paladins in PNP are so much more than what they are in DDO. Honestly I think that Pally's can still be really powerful if built right but I myself would never build a pure pally. The pally's that I play are splashed with favored soul for weapon enhancements since I only need to take 4 levels to get most of the enhancements that I want, actually I think I only take 3 of FvS.

    In short, the enhancement system is broken!

  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerren View Post
    You know I have read the whole thread, there is now 24 pages of it, but the one thing that seems to be overlook in what I have read is that pally's get aura's. Granted you have to take the enhancements to make the aura's better but perhaps the aura's should be better based on pally level to make more than 2 levels viable.

    Personally I think that the new enhancement system is broken and each enhancement should be level based, not tier 1 level 1, tier 2 level 2, etc...but if the aura's that pally's get scaled by level then pally's might be more sought after by groups!
    The aura should be expanded to a 30' radius. Id probably allocate the aura rider effects to the caster PrC though when not dealing with purely numerical defensive bonuses.

    I think the 1-5 progression with enhancements should be lvl = 2^(T-1), so T1=L1, T2=L2, T3=L4, and T5=L8.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerren View Post
    Both Monks and Paladins in PNP are so much more than what they are in DDO.
    You are conflating Monks with Swordsages. Swordsages are where everything good about monk in DDO comes from. In PnP the only strength of monk is you get at best 2 fighter feats and wisdom to armor on a cleric or paladin. Swordsages also dont have multiclass restrictions. Monks in PnP cant really do anything truly effective without eating a mighty coarse of Steel and anger sandwiches to replace their class features with full barbarian rage and slightly worse then druid wildshape.

    Paladin doesnt have legitimate reasons for having them either. Everything that lets them turn into a halfling amulet on a dragon's neck are PrCs with rather easy pre-requisites. They need 4-6 attributes depending on build, and need to invest into armor which they cant themselves craft because the rules for crafting are horrible.
    Last edited by toapat; 06-17-2014 at 08:15 AM.

  5. #485
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerren View Post
    I disagree. The whole game should be brought back to it's origins instead of boosted for the min/maxers. All of the monsters DC's have been boosted to give min/maxers more challenge. In some cases this works out all right, in other cases it has totally broken things that should be effective in D&D but are not. What gives you the right to say that this is not worth fixing? I get the feeling that you are one of those people that shoehorn clerics into 'heal me and do nothing else' and any cleric that would dare turn undead and possibly steal your kill is bad and deserves to be flogged. I personally never play clerics, and never will, because most people in this game think that the cleric should stand, balls in hand, and do absolutely nothing but heal them, how boring! Same thing goes for paladin, block with shield, intimidate, do nothing....boring!

    Really, when that is what is expected of a class, why would anyone in their right mind play the class? You want a healbot? Get a friggin hireling. You want a bad ass that can heal you and destroy a majority of the EVIL creature or undead that you confront and leave just a few that you must confront get a REAL cleric or paladin! This game does neither justice in that respect and never has but that does not mean that it should not be fixed! Shame on you!
    This here is your main problem your a PNPer that can't see the fight your trying to fight has been long lost. Your not going to get Turbine to go backwards to what we used to have. Many of us fought for things in the enhancement pass and we failed, plain and simple as that.

    Move on already, your continued trolling in here and beating a dead horse is not constructive and realistically isn't helping to improve anything.

    Sad thing is I agree with some of what you say but guess what? Others like qhualor and myself peed and moaned about those things for months before the enhancement pass and it still went through.

    Shame on you for trying to blame others like myself that fought hard against some of these changes when you were no where around.

    The only constructive thing we can do is work with how things are now because you are straight up delusional if you think they will change the whole system to make it like it used to be or should have been.


    Btw here is a recent thread on BYOH.
    Last edited by SilkofDrasnia; 06-17-2014 at 09:08 AM.
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  6. #486
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArcaneArcher52689 View Post
    2 Monk is still definitely the most valuable splash, but I really don't see anyway to nerf it.
    Lots of ways:

    • Move the extra Crit Multiplier to Fire Stance.
    • Add stats requirements to the Adept/Master/Grandmaster selectable feats as they used to be when monks were added to the game (Str, Dex, Con AND Wis 14 for Adept, 16 for Master, 18 for Grandmaster), or remove them as general feats.
    • Backload some of the class innate dodge bonus, making it more akin to Rogue/Barbarian class dodge bonus.
    • Reduce Shadow Veil incorporeal bonus to 10%, and raise it gradually with the other Ninja Spy cores, up to 50% at capstone.


    Those four things would quickly reduce the power of the monk 2 splash to be more on par with fighter or rogue or pally.
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  7. #487
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    Exclamation Give the whiny paladins the power they want w/o messing with divine grace

    I don't give a fig how powerful you make primary or single class paladins. I don't want to play one so I don't have a dog in the fight over paladins getting OP. As far as I can see it is the class for whiners and I will NEVER be like that.

    So screw it, give them what they want. Let them be OP if that is what is required to shut them up. Just don't mess with divine grace.

    So here is my suggestion inspired by pnp dnd paladin. And reminder: I WON'T EVER HAVE A PALADIN CHARACTER.

    Create a 20th level capstone. Call it "Exalted Holy Sword" or some such.
    It creates an aura that does all or some of the following.
    1. huge bonus to PRR
    2. huge bonus to MRR
    3. +10 to +20 on saving throws.
    4. no longer failing saves on a 1
    5. stacking spell resistance
    6. dispel magic aura- removes crowd control effects, ongoing spell damage, and destroys in place spells like wall of fire and otto's dance.
    7. restorative aura- regenerates spell points, hit points, lay ons, smites and turns
    8. DR 20/good

  8. #488
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    Angry remember divine grace is 8 years old

    I think in this debate it is important to remember that DIVINE GRACE has been a stable unchanged character "feat" for MORE THAN 8 YEARS. It boggles the mind that the rug should be pulled out from under us splashers at this point. Why did it take 8 years to figure out it was a problem? And don't give me any EE garbage. I will happily promise never to run EE again if that helps.
    Last edited by RKP; 06-17-2014 at 03:17 PM. Reason: **** is apparently a swear word

  9. #489
    2015 DDO Players Council B0ltdrag0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    Lots of ways:

    • Move the extra Crit Multiplier to Fire Stance.
    • Add stats requirements to the Adept/Master/Grandmaster selectable feats as they used to be when monks were added to the game (Str, Dex, Con AND Wis 14 for Adept, 16 for Master, 18 for Grandmaster), or remove them as general feats.
    • Backload some of the class innate dodge bonus, making it more akin to Rogue/Barbarian class dodge bonus.
    • Reduce Shadow Veil incorporeal bonus to 10%, and raise it gradually with the other Ninja Spy cores, up to 50% at capstone.


    Those four things would quickly reduce the power of the monk 2 splash to be more on par with fighter or rogue or pally.
    1 would not change it's usefulness
    2 god no. The design should have been a minimum character level (like now) and for t2 to require 1 monk, t3 6 monk and grand master monk ultimately need min level 18 with 12 monk.
    3 also not needed
    4. 2 monks do not have veil, all this would do is make 6 monk only slightly better than paladin 6, which is already borderline bad
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  10. #490
    Community Member Yaga_Nub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKP View Post
    I think in this debate it is important to remember that DIVINE GRACE has been a stable unchanged character "feat" for MORE THAN 8 YEARS. It boggles the mind that the rug should be pulled out from under us splashers at this point. Why did it take 8 years to figure out it was a problem? And don't give me any EE garbage. I will happily promise never to run EE again if that helps.
    New people at the helm for a few months think that they know better than the people that have been playing the game for lots of years.

    In their defense they are trying to fix the screw ups of previous devs. However, their suggestions, such as the change to DG, the changes to PRR, and the addition of MRR instead of making SR work correctly, shows just how clueless they really are about the game they are working on.

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  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKP View Post
    I think in this debate it is important to remember that DIVINE GRACE has been a stable unchanged character "feat" for MORE THAN 8 YEARS. It boggles the mind that the rug should be pulled out from under us splashers at this point. Why did it take 8 years to figure out it was a problem? And don't give me any EE garbage. I will happily promise never to run EE again if that helps.
    Divine Grace has always been problematic. The only thing is now its problematic and detrimental to the rest of the game because devs kept increasing enemy power linearly when player power for the most part scales in complexity at levelcap. before they started just boosting the levelcap willy nilly, the best gear was more comprehensive then weaker gear for what it contributed. An Epic Cavalry Plate gives more attributes on one item then basically anything else, and when the level cap was 20 nothing really could even compete with it because it opened the most slots up. Sure currently its not the god among armors but its still a very complex item.

    Since MotU though, the devs have primarily relied on increasing power by simply bigger numbers and not just by giving the options necessary to squeeze tiny increases of damage or defense.

  12. #492
    2015 DDO Players Council B0ltdrag0n's Avatar
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    Which has nothing to do with divine grace.

    The best way to need it is to reevaluate monster DC's and saves in E/ content. This l started during that first pass around motu
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  13. #493
    2015 DDO Players Council MangLord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    Personally, I'd rather have unlimited uses (of Smite Evil) with a set cooldown, and spend points to increase the power and decrease the cooldown.
    I like this a lot. Smite Evil isn't an incredibly powerful ability when compared with stuff that other classes get on simple timers. When compared to the sheer utility of something as basic as Monk stunning fist or Ranger manyshot, it's kinda pathetic. I never got through an encounter thinking that Smite Evil saved the day, but I sure have (many times) with manyshot, stunning fist, or even the simple Chill Touch archmage SLA on my pale master.

    Other abilities that have limited uses per rest are far more useful, either to the entire party or as a single effect. A Radiant Servant can do very well against undead with their Turn Undead uses, which have the additional benefit of being alternately used as party utilities. (I gave up entirely on turn undead as a paladin very early on. Unless you invest heavily in equipment boosts, it hardly ever works. I don't want to redo my gear load-out every time I do a quest with undead.) Turning shouldn't be factored in to paladin overall power) Bard songs buff the entire party, or fascinate a mob entirely. Paladin smites only have a single weak effect, and the cost is too heavy. The other thing is that both bards and clerics, for example, have ways to get a large number of turns and songs. My paladin was limited to about 7 (if I recall correctly) on my TR life. I blew through those so fast on level 16 elites. Smite Evil also carries the disadvantage of being totally useless on animals, arachnids and other non-evil enemies.

    Unless there are plans to drastically increase the potency of Smite Evil, it needs to be put on a 30 second timer or so. Some party-wide vulnerability effects, party-wide light damage dice, an AoE burst effect or a combination of each (solo and group play should both be addressed) would make Smites much better. They would have to stack with existing vulnerability effects that are very common with a party wielding thunderforged weapons. Otherwise no one will care. Personally, I like the AoE burst effect. Paladins want to keep and hold mob aggro. Anything to help that will be a bonus.
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  14. #494
    2015 DDO Players Council MangLord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoboldKiller View Post
    Unless the game has changed I have spent years watching people try to squeeze 5-6 more points of damage out of their builds so why is this additional damage not enough?
    The difference is that a deadly item contributes to your base damage, which gets factored over when you score a critical. Builds that rely on critical hits benefit greatly from seeker and deadly items. An item or effect that tacks on an extra couple d6 of elemental damage stays static and doesn't improve with multipliers. In the grand scheme of things, unless the elemental damage improves with a critical (why burst and blast effects are popular with rapiers and such) it may as well not be there at all.

    I do like the system where a player benefits from investment in spell power for burst effects, such as eldritch knight and swashbuckler sonic effects. It rewards the player for investing in gear and skill points to boost specific spellpower. It's a caster version of seeker and deadly items. It would be cool if paladins and cleric warpriests might similarly benefit from light/good burst effects based on their positive/light spellpower, or have it scale by level like many spells do.
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  15. #495
    2015 DDO Players Council MangLord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    If anything, I would rather see smites recharge faster. What I would prefer is for Paladins to not be so reliant on them for good DPS. I don't think their current DPS sucks, but I would rather have access to other things that can boost damage like other classes can and I'm not talking twisting something in. A couple pages back I listed a few suggestions I think, if translated properly to DDO math, would be nice boosts in damage.
    I'm just curious as to what difficulty you normally play at where paladin DPS doesn't suck? Not judging you, just curious. If I were to play normal or maybe hard difficulty, I'd say paladin DPS is alright. It's at least enough to kill enemies faster than they can heal themselves.

    The reason I ask is because when I did my paladin life, by the time I got to level 18 and hit Wheloon elites, I was absolutely dependent on rolling a 20 with a vorpal longsword, particularly on the stupid lizardman shamans when I tried to solo Lesson in Deception. This was at heroic levels, which got the thought in my mind that my sacred defender was going to get eaten alive at epic levels. I had very good defense and intimidate, and was able to whittle away mobs very slowly by turtling up with cleaves and self healing as needed, but if I didn't have a high DPS friend, it was a long, arduous experience. The problem was that even with the DPS sorc happily allowing me to run in first and grab aggro, I was unable to hold it after a few seconds, and then had to blow several LoH keeping him alive while I attempted to aggro the mob on me again.

    I'd dipped into KotC for extra smites and such, but spent the vast majority of my AP in Sacred Defender. Defense was kinda new to me, as I tend to play DPS characters, so I was kinda determined to experience paladin life from a defensive perspective. I took a few shield feats, power attack and cleaves. I found the shield feats to be incredibly underwhelming. If I didn't have to basically redo all my feats, I'd have just switched over to greatswords and dumped Sacred Defender entirely by the time I got to 20.

    Looking at KotC tree after playing a couple DPS classes, namely an AA ranger and Kensei fighter, it looked very weak to me in comparison. An extra few d6 of bonus damage, even with a greatsword or falchion, wasn't enough to make KotC particularly appealing even against undead or outsiders. If they gained an extra couple [W] worth, that might look a lot better on a high crit weapon at least.

    I had taken all available hate generation abilities in Sacred Defender, and wore Fabricator's Bracers and a +13 crafted intimidate item with points spent in Intimidate skill at every level. I couldn't get my threat generation any higher, and was unable to hold aggro. I'd found that while soloing, many times enemies would run straight past me to get to my cleric hireling. Whatever threat generation they had, I wanted it.

    My basic point is that I found paladin DPS to be terrible. It was fine up to level 12, but fell off very quickly once I got past Gianthold. I found Sacred Defender to be very good at a defensive role up to level 12, and I filled an important role tanking the end giant in Tempest Spine with no problems. However, it slowly degraded until it finally fell off a cliff with level 16 elites. I was able to kill enemies with lucky disruption/smiting/vorpal/etc 20 rolls, but my criticals were topping out at around 120 on a great cleave at level 18. Without some kind of burst effects better than cleaves, I can't see how I'd possibly hold aggro and provide party defense past level 20, even on EH.

    Given my experience with a paladin defender at heroic levels, I wasn't in the mood to deal with epics of any kind. If I could hold aggro for any length of time, I felt like I could absorb a lot of damage, but enemies just seem to shoot straight for the casters just like we do as players, even if they haven't done anything. I didn't feel like I had anything worthwhile to contribute to epic play, since I couldn't hold aggro, heal efficiently or provide any DPS, so I just TRed into the next life. I'd like to work on epic destinies a little before I TR, but paladin life just felt like a total wash.
    Last edited by MangLord; 06-18-2014 at 01:29 AM.
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  16. #496
    2015 DDO Players Council MangLord's Avatar
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    In the effort to make changes to "underpowered" classes, I'm seeing a lot of argument between DDO players and PnP players that play DDO. DDO players call for more, while DnD players want the system to reflect the core principles of DnD. We're way past that. My PnP characters rarely had stats above 20, so the argument kinda falls apart there. My current level 4 elven warpriest has a 22 str already. My rogues didn't care much about high CON in DnD, but I will die in the harbor if I dump CON. The problem becomes where to draw the line. Does the development team scale back to reflect a more PnP approach, or further embrace DDO as a separate entity with its own metrics? Unless the division becomes more clear, certain classes will always fall behind.

    I'm a DDO player initially drawn to the game by a personal history of PnP, but I've accepted the conventions of the game in an MMO state, and would prefer the development team to either scale back towards PnP, or allow all classes to abandon PnP rule restrictions in an effort to comply with DDO conventions and mechanics and become viable assets to a party.

    What seems reasonable to a PnP player seems to be generally considered inadequate to a DDO player. I suggest the team pick a side, because trying to hit the middle is an impossible task. The problem is that, while everything is based on the concept of DnD, DDO has developed an inflated system that PnP rules can't address without "house rules". Changes to paladin (and every other class) need to reflect this. What works for normal difficulty, my basis for more pure DnD rules, can be horribly underpowered when attempting harder difficulties. Elite is where its at with DDO, lets face it. Normal is fine. I prefer to play Hard on epic levels, and I feel like all classes should be viable on EH at least. The premise for EE should be "pro only" instead of "savant" if you prefer to play an "off class". I'm fine with it being very hard, but it should be doable for a player that knows how to play their class, instead of just following a recipe of evasion and DPS. If that's the way the developers want to do it, fine, but a pro should be able to bring a dwarven stalwart defender into EE if that's the class they're best at, use their abilities tactically, and have a good chance of staying alive. PrEs, feats and destinies need to reflect that or continue to be laughably gimpy.
    Last edited by MangLord; 06-18-2014 at 02:12 AM.
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    Exclamation true but that still doesn't justify ruining an existing character

    [QUOTE=MangLord;5361024]In the effort to make changes to "underpowered" classes, I'm seeing a lot of argument between DDO players and PnP players that play DDO. DDO players call for more, while DnD players want the system to reflect the core principles of DnD. We're way past that. My PnP characters rarely had stats above 20, so the argument kinda falls apart there. My current level 4 elven warpriest has a 22 str already. My rogues didn't care much about high CON in DnD, but I will die in the harbor if I dump CON. The problem becomes where to draw the line. Does the development team scale back to reflect a more PnP approach, or further embrace DDO as a separate entity with its own metrics? Unless the division becomes more clear, certain classes will always fall behind.

    Of course you are 100% correct. I have been playing pnp dnd since 1979. On epic elite you find rats that have more hit points than any deity ever stated out in any edition. The 1st edition D&D version of the drow diety Lloth had 66 hit points! What does she have now on EE CitW? A million? There is still no justification for ruining someone's beloved character. There is always another way. The problem is that turbine seems to want to just take the most obvious and least creative: nerfing.

  18. #498
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MangLord View Post
    I'm just curious as to what difficulty you normally play at where paladin DPS doesn't suck? Not judging you, just curious. If I were to play normal or maybe hard difficulty, I'd say paladin DPS is alright. It's at least enough to kill enemies faster than they can heal themselves.

    The reason I ask is because when I did my paladin life, by the time I got to level 18 and hit Wheloon elites, I was absolutely dependent on rolling a 20 with a vorpal longsword, particularly on the stupid lizardman shamans when I tried to solo Lesson in Deception. This was at heroic levels, which got the thought in my mind that my sacred defender was going to get eaten alive at epic levels. I had very good defense and intimidate, and was able to whittle away mobs very slowly by turtling up with cleaves and self healing as needed, but if I didn't have a high DPS friend, it was a long, arduous experience. The problem was that even with the DPS sorc happily allowing me to run in first and grab aggro, I was unable to hold it after a few seconds, and then had to blow several LoH keeping him alive while I attempted to aggro the mob on me again.

    I'd dipped into KotC for extra smites and such, but spent the vast majority of my AP in Sacred Defender. Defense was kinda new to me, as I tend to play DPS characters, so I was kinda determined to experience paladin life from a defensive perspective. I took a few shield feats, power attack and cleaves. I found the shield feats to be incredibly underwhelming. If I didn't have to basically redo all my feats, I'd have just switched over to greatswords and dumped Sacred Defender entirely by the time I got to 20.

    Looking at KotC tree after playing a couple DPS classes, namely an AA ranger and Kensei fighter, it looked very weak to me in comparison. An extra few d6 of bonus damage, even with a greatsword or falchion, wasn't enough to make KotC particularly appealing even against undead or outsiders. If they gained an extra couple [W] worth, that might look a lot better on a high crit weapon at least.

    I had taken all available hate generation abilities in Sacred Defender, and wore Fabricator's Bracers and a +13 crafted intimidate item with points spent in Intimidate skill at every level. I couldn't get my threat generation any higher, and was unable to hold aggro. I'd found that while soloing, many times enemies would run straight past me to get to my cleric hireling. Whatever threat generation they had, I wanted it.

    My basic point is that I found paladin DPS to be terrible. It was fine up to level 12, but fell off very quickly once I got past Gianthold. I found Sacred Defender to be very good at a defensive role up to level 12, and I filled an important role tanking the end giant in Tempest Spine with no problems. However, it slowly degraded until it finally fell off a cliff with level 16 elites. I was able to kill enemies with lucky disruption/smiting/vorpal/etc 20 rolls, but my criticals were topping out at around 120 on a great cleave at level 18. Without some kind of burst effects better than cleaves, I can't see how I'd possibly hold aggro and provide party defense past level 20, even on EH.

    Given my experience with a paladin defender at heroic levels, I wasn't in the mood to deal with epics of any kind. If I could hold aggro for any length of time, I felt like I could absorb a lot of damage, but enemies just seem to shoot straight for the casters just like we do as players, even if they haven't done anything. I didn't feel like I had anything worthwhile to contribute to epic play, since I couldn't hold aggro, heal efficiently or provide any DPS, so I just TRed into the next life. I'd like to work on epic destinies a little before I TR, but paladin life just felt like a total wash.
    I don't know what to say to prove that I think paladin dps isn't that bad. im not saying its top notch, but not as terrible as people make it out to be. I always build for dps, investing in cha, equipping items and gear that boost dps and focus on KOTC. like I mentioned in the other thread about damage mitigation, current tank trees need better focus instead of developing new tank trees. that could be where the problem lies for your dps.
    #MakeDDOGreatAgain

    You are the one choosing not to play alts.

    Casual player now investing way less than I used to into the game, playing 1-3 months at a time and still want nothing to do with Reaper. #improvepuggrouping#alldifficultiesmatter

  19. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by MangLord View Post
    I had taken all available hate generation abilities in Sacred Defender, and wore Fabricator's Bracers and a +13 crafted intimidate item with points spent in Intimidate skill at every level. I couldn't get my threat generation any higher, and was unable to hold aggro. I'd found that while soloing, many times enemies would run straight past me to get to my cleric hireling. Whatever threat generation they had, I wanted it.
    Not sure how you couldnt. Im running about that much and barring Xyzzy (because of a number of epic spells that ignore her defense i dont have), i can basically hold aggro off of anyone. Unless you forgot to ever use Divine Righteousness.

    The problem with DoS/SD are that both trees have very bad vertical scaling. Going up the trees doesnt really help beyond unlocking the core abilities which are pretty much the best part of either tree, with the only relly bad ones of those being Stand fast in SD and Eternal Defender in DoS. Im sorry, but upto -50 hp before dieing? if something is nuking me that quickly its going to drop me into the -100s almost immediately.

  20. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkofDrasnia View Post
    This here is your main problem your a PNPer that can't see the fight your trying to fight has been long lost. Your not going to get Turbine to go backwards to what we used to have. Many of us fought for things in the enhancement pass and we failed, plain and simple as that.

    Move on already, your continued trolling in here and beating a dead horse is not constructive and realistically isn't helping to improve anything.

    Sad thing is I agree with some of what you say but guess what? Others like qhualor and myself peed and moaned about those things for months before the enhancement pass and it still went through.

    Shame on you for trying to blame others like myself that fought hard against some of these changes when you were no where around.

    The only constructive thing we can do is work with how things are now because you are straight up delusional if you think they will change the whole system to make it like it used to be or should have been.


    Btw here is a recent thread on BYOH.
    Thanks for your input, although I am pretty sure I was not talking to you. Butt in on anothers conversation and then call them a troll, good one!

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