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Thread: Paladin Changes

  1. #441
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    Default Divine Grace nerf should be part of overall balance pass not paladin buffing

    If you are going to nerf divine grace it shouldn't be done as part of buffing paladin since it in no way helps paladins.

    There are other splashes that should probably be looked at the same time as the divine grace nerf so that all splashes are nerfed at the same time if you think that is good for the game:

    2 monk - definitely the most uber splash in the game - 2 feats + evasion + access to all stances + favorable enhancement changes
    2-4 fvs - basically for very favorable enhancement tree
    2 fighter - 2 feats and access to enhancements
    2 rogue - evasion + max UMD and trapping capabilities

    The other thing is that if you are going to start ruining builds, just get it over with and make the changes all at once. In other words, if you are going to cut off my hand please don't do it one finger at a time. I will have to change my build after divine grace nerf. Then when you get around to nerfing 2 monk I may have to change my build again. It wasn't too long ago I had to redo my characters due to the enhancement pass.

    I don't mind change, but a nerf that doesn't help paladin shouldn't be part of an exercise to buff paladins, it should be part of an overall balance review at the same time all splashes are looked at.

    Lastly, balance nerfs should be done after fixing favorable game bugs which are much more powerful than any of these splashes.
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  2. #442
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    If you are going to nerf divine grace it shouldn't be done as part of buffing paladin since it in no way helps paladins.

    ...snip...
    I can agree with this, it should be a separate issue. This thread is about buffing paladins which has been a long long time coming and the whole "discussion" about DG should be taken elsewhere even if only to keep this about buffing paladins an not about multi-classing vs pure.
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  3. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwonbush View Post
    That would need a cap. Otherwise they would be as a god with the temp HP from the Unyielding Sentinel Epic Moment and its 10,000 temp hp (giving a whopping 100x damage while it lasts.)
    considering its only 20 seconds once per rest on a class which is when going pure and in a tree that is extremely hard to avoid threat boosting on, its not really that extremely overboard.

    its also not like paladins dont have alot fo backlog of love they need

  4. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    If you are going to nerf divine grace it shouldn't be done as part of buffing paladin since it in no way helps paladins.

    There are other splashes that should probably be looked at the same time as the divine grace nerf so that all splashes are nerfed at the same time if you think that is good for the game:

    2 monk - definitely the most uber splash in the game - 2 feats + evasion + access to all stances + favorable enhancement changes
    2-4 fvs - basically for very favorable enhancement tree
    2 fighter - 2 feats and access to enhancements
    2 rogue - evasion + max UMD and trapping capabilities

    The other thing is that if you are going to start ruining builds, just get it over with and make the changes all at once. In other words, if you are going to cut off my hand please don't do it one finger at a time. I will have to change my build after divine grace nerf. Then when you get around to nerfing 2 monk I may have to change my build again. It wasn't too long ago I had to redo my characters due to the enhancement pass.

    I don't mind change, but a nerf that doesn't help paladin shouldn't be part of an exercise to buff paladins, it should be part of an overall balance review at the same time all splashes are looked at.

    Lastly, balance nerfs should be done after fixing favorable game bugs which are much more powerful than any of these splashes.

    Yeah, DG nerf should have been a separate thread.

    As for the other splashes, I think 2 fighter +2 rogue are absolutely fine for the cost/benefit they offer at the moment.

    2 Monk is still definitely the most valuable splash, but I really don't see anyway to nerf it. The best way I can come up with at the moment is to restrict their evasion feat to when centered.

  5. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArcaneArcher52689 View Post
    2 Monk is still definitely the most valuable splash, but I really don't see anyway to nerf it. The best way I can come up with at the moment is to restrict their evasion feat to when centered.
    the only way really to remove monk from there would be if they gave everyone access to the stances without any levels of monk. although im not sure how that would impact barb's balance.

  6. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    the only way really to remove monk from there would be if they gave everyone access to the stances without any levels of monk. although im not sure how that would impact barb's balance.
    stances are only really OP w/ 8+ fighters. Every other class has to spend 1-3 feats, and restricts their weapon choices. Fighters get 5 bonus feats(reducing/eliminating that cost), and access to an enhancement that lets them remain centered while wielding any weapon. So stances are really only OP with the fighter splash build, and only because their opportunity cost is almost non-existent.

  7. #447
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    The change from class levels to character level was a bad idea. Change it back to class levels the way it should be to access top tier enhancements and feats would make tough choices to go pure or multi class. As mentioned many times, a lot of the capstones aren't worth investing more class levels and many enhancements and autogranted abilities are front loaded.

  8. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArcaneArcher52689 View Post
    stances are only really OP w/ 8+ fighters. Every other class has to spend 1-3 feats, and restricts their weapon choices. Fighters get 5 bonus feats(reducing/eliminating that cost), and access to an enhancement that lets them remain centered while wielding any weapon. So stances are really only OP with the fighter splash build, and only because their opportunity cost is almost non-existent.
    when i meant give them to everyone i meant remove the centered requirement and everyone gets the feats at their relative level

  9. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    when i meant give them to everyone i meant remove the centered requirement and everyone gets the feats at their relative level
    Than everyone will be overpowered.

    Also, just to remind you all

    This thread is NOT ABOUT arguing and complaining about "oh my moncher is getting nerf!" or "Goodbye to my 18/2 sorc pally" or anything else that resalts in some characters being dead. This thread is for making Paladins MOAR compelling to level. Give them suggestions/ideas about feats and/or enhancements to drastically improve upon or add to the Paladin.

    If you cant help but to argue about the "nerfs" than take it to a different thread, please.

  10. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    when i meant give them to everyone i meant remove the centered requirement and everyone gets the feats at their relative level
    I know. however, stances aren't the problem at the moment. My point was that there is currently only one class that can make stances unfair. So, the solution isn't to give everyone stances, it's to fix the one class. It's like saying every class should have evasion and 2 bonus feats by level 2. Yes, it balances out the power, but not the right way.

  11. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArcaneArcher52689 View Post
    I know. however, stances aren't the problem at the moment. My point was that there is currently only one class that can make stances unfair. So, the solution isn't to give everyone stances, it's to fix the one class. It's like saying every class should have evasion and 2 bonus feats by level 2. Yes, it balances out the power, but not the right way.
    the problem is that there really are 4 things you get from monk in a 2 level dip when compared to everyone else who only gives 1 thing. you get the stances, wisdom to ac, 2 bonus feats, and evasion, vs a paladin's DG, a fighter's 2 feats, or Rogue's evasion.



    but back to paladin:

    Ways they could make the offensive tree useful:

    give a smite cleave in the T5 enhancements. costs 2 smites per use.

    give a modified version of Divine recovery from RKV as the lvl 12 ability,. (1 turn undead: recharge all smites)

    Have the first core enhancement be +1 smite and smites regenerate 5% faster percore enhancement

    Enhancements in tree that give short term buffs after using a smite.

    Capstone gives a 20 second buff that causes AoE damage. costs 3 smites.

    abilities which use a smite to cast heal

    Pure good and Holy at lvl 3/18 respectively

    A couple of multi-selectors for smite evil that determine how exaulted smite works.
    Last edited by toapat; 06-16-2014 at 10:14 AM.

  12. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    If you are going to nerf divine grace it shouldn't be done as part of buffing paladin since it in no way helps paladins.

    ...snip...
    This is Semantics. Changes to the class is fine no matter what they bundle into those changes.

    These defensive options are great to help bolster Paladins, however I think if they had ways to bypass the no shield limit for SWF, they would have many more options to offer dps.

  13. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikojin View Post
    This is Semantics. Changes to the class is fine no matter what they bundle into those changes.

    These defensive options are great to help bolster Paladins, however I think if they had ways to bypass the no shield limit for SWF, they would have many more options to offer dps.
    I disagree. For one, S&B and SWF have always been separate and different styles in classic D&D games.

    Secondly, the whole point of SWF is giving up defense for more offense. The point of S&B is giving up possible extra offense of thf/swf for better defenses, and using the shield.

    Thirdly, it'd be unbalanced because you'd be getting tank defenses plus swf offense while most other builds would get just the offense.


    Conclusion: I'd rather see a separate unique S&B feat line.
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  14. #454
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    Hey, long time player (off and on since about 2010), first time poster. Wanted to throw an idea out about paladins.
    Long story short: An enhancement tree that makes the turn undead mechanic useful. (Just keep reading...)

    First off, an ability called turn evil (or something, point being it's for all evil creatures) which uses turn charges, animation (meaning it's an aoe ability), gains benefits from items. HOWEVER, it differs in the fact that its effects are different. No instant kill with high enough rolls, and it's more of a DAMAGE and DEBUFF centered ability. The instant kill COULD be added in another form as a chance (or against significantly weaker mobs). The tree could focus on aggressively debuffing enemies, (maybe some sla's and spell enhancements to make them sort of castery?) and would take the turning enhancements from kotc (I just feel like they're shoehorned in and since the tree is for EITHER undead or evil outsiders, having just undead focused things in it, which could honestly be replaced with better melee focused things) feels like it slants too much toward one end.

    Having a turn based ability as a useful mechanic would encourage more levels of paladin (for stronger turning) and it saddens me to see all of the turn items and cool animation being wasted and used as a charge system for other things.

    I also wanted to address divine grace and say that I feel that it needs a level based limit, BUT with 20 paladin should have no limit (perhaps as part of a capstone to the turning tree since it could be charisma focused?)

    Maybe this is a stupid idea but I felt like posting it and I honestly feel like turning as a mechanic could stand to be made useful.

    Thank you for taking the time to read this post!

  15. #455
    Community Member Psiandron's Avatar
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    Default It is a good idea, it's just that someone else got there first.

    Quote Originally Posted by 9001 View Post
    Hey, long time player (off and on since about 2010), first time poster. Wanted to throw an idea out about paladins.
    Long story short: An enhancement tree that makes the turn undead mechanic useful. (Just keep reading...)

    First off, an ability called turn evil (or something, point being it's for all evil creatures) which uses turn charges, animation (meaning it's an aoe ability), gains benefits from items. HOWEVER, it differs in the fact that its effects are different. No instant kill with high enough rolls, and it's more of a DAMAGE and DEBUFF centered ability. The instant kill COULD be added in another form as a chance (or against significantly weaker mobs). The tree could focus on aggressively debuffing enemies, (maybe some sla's and spell enhancements to make them sort of castery?) and would take the turning enhancements from kotc (I just feel like they're shoehorned in and since the tree is for EITHER undead or evil outsiders, having just undead focused things in it, which could honestly be replaced with better melee focused things) feels like it slants too much toward one end.

    Having a turn based ability as a useful mechanic would encourage more levels of paladin (for stronger turning) and it saddens me to see all of the turn items and cool animation being wasted and used as a charge system for other things.

    I also wanted to address divine grace and say that I feel that it needs a level based limit, BUT with 20 paladin should have no limit (perhaps as part of a capstone to the turning tree since it could be charisma focused?)

    Maybe this is a stupid idea but I felt like posting it and I honestly feel like turning as a mechanic could stand to be made useful.

    Thank you for taking the time to read this post!
    Turn undead is called a channel divinity ability. There are several such abilities in the paladin trees; the most common is Divine Might.

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  16. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9001 View Post
    First off, an ability called turn evil
    Turn undead is worthless as is. Giving it the ability to hit more types of enemies doesnt make it less useless.

    the entire mechanic for how turn undead is rolled would have to be replaced with an entirely different system where the paladin and cleric are considered at least 20 levels higher then they actually are to get reliable and worthwhile results from the ability. And there would have to be exactly 0 other mechanics to make Turn undead useful. which no one wants because Divine might is simply better in every single way. Paladins need mechanics that work, not useless dog****

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psiandron View Post
    Turn undead is called a channel divinity ability. There are several such abilities in the paladin trees; the most common is Divine Might.

    Welcome to the forums.
    That's exactly the problem I have though, sorry if I didn't make it clear. Turn undead is used for anything BUT turning. I just think it'd be an interesting thing to see turning made into something offensive that's useful. Divine Might in the case of paladins (which could easily be a spell point cost albeit less than the warpriest version).

    I understand the idea that most people are ok with the current state of turn undead (mostly useless other than the aformentioned Channel Divinity), but I think the idea of turning things, including non-deaders, would be a good flavour option for paladins even if it was made to not be overpowered. Imagine just running up to some group of baddies, yelling TURN and seeing them weaken before your might.

    Once again, sorry for not explaining myself clearly, and thank you for the welcome!

  18. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Turn undead is worthless as is. Giving it the ability to hit more types of enemies doesnt make it less useless.

    the entire mechanic for how turn undead is rolled would have to be replaced with an entirely different system where the paladin and cleric are considered at least 20 levels higher then they actually are to get reliable and worthwhile results from the ability. And there would have to be exactly 0 other mechanics to make Turn undead useful. which no one wants because Divine might is simply better in every single way. Paladins need mechanics that work, not useless dog****
    Well it could be MADE useful. That's exactly what I think should happen. And Divine might could be made a cooldown/ use charges/ LOW sp cost. The fact that people are OK with turning being useless is what bothers me. It WOULD need work to make it useful, but I feel it deserves that work, and it would give the paladin something cool to call their own other than a mega damage buff.

    I know a lot of you guys are cynical about this kind of thing, and of turbine in general, but things like these could be fleshed out and made useful.

    Just my two cents.

  19. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9001 View Post
    Just my two cents.
    your oppinion is noted and incorrect.

    Turn undead is worthless because the mechanic for it renders the ability reliably innefectual at best and utterly worthless when it could be relevant. If an undead is not mindless it has innate turning resistance, while DDO has vastly inflated HD counts for enemies. The fact is that turning is bad. it always has been bad, and it will always be bad.

    Leaving turn undead as fuel for actually useful abilities is better because it doesnt require going through a thousand quests and hand tuning Hitdice and charisma so that undead dungeons dont become a cakewalk. There is simply too much reason to not bother with the ability as anything more.

    Yes paladin Divine Might needs to run on mana, but thats because paladin has other equally valuable or superior uses for turn undead.

  20. #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    your oppinion is noted and incorrect.

    Turn undead is worthless because the mechanic for it renders the ability reliably innefectual at best and utterly worthless when it could be relevant. If an undead is not mindless it has innate turning resistance, while DDO has vastly inflated HD counts for enemies. The fact is that turning is bad. it always has been bad, and it will always be bad.

    Leaving turn undead as fuel for actually useful abilities is better because it doesnt require going through a thousand quests and hand tuning Hitdice and charisma so that undead dungeons dont become a cakewalk. There is simply too much reason to not bother with the ability as anything more.

    Yes paladin Divine Might needs to run on mana, but thats because paladin has other equally valuable or superior uses for turn undead.
    First off, the idea was to use the idea of turning and make it more universal and useful. Not "make turn undead better" but make something out of the guts of it that is 1) effective against most enemies 2) gives a flavour to the paladin 3) takes the turn enhancements from the kotc tree to make room for good stuff.

    Secondly, within my idea, the whole turn resistance thing wouldn't apply to turn EVIL (perhaps with bosses) the point of it being to use the SPIRIT of turning rather than the REALITY of it. It wouldn't kill undead like TU would (however you could still ineffectively use it if you so desired).

    Thirdly, again, the whole idea of channel divinity as using turn charges, is imo garbage. Give it its own set of charges and make something out of turn undead (again the turn evil idea is only the idea of turning rather than *boom fear and/or instant death* It's not "UNIVERSAL turn undead" It's "REVAMPED turn idea". It might not have any precedent in the source material, but turbine has strayed from it before and will again. You can say "well turn undead sucks, let's use the charges for non-turning" but I'm saying that the spirit of turning, ie the idea of throwing that aoe out and affecting a bunch of enemies with SOMETHING could imo give paladins a flavour, and in general they need a more general evil killing capacity, rather than just undead or evil outsiders.

    EDIT: also, if inflated HD is an issue, inflate the bonuses epic gear gives to turn levels, add epic levels toward turning, etc.
    If it doesn't work, it shouldn't be ignored, it should be fixed. I thought people didn't like systems/ideas being left to rot, and I feel like that happened when turn undead became a glorified charge system (seriously, if they took turn undead out and left the charges nobody would notice nor would they care).
    Last edited by 9001; 06-16-2014 at 07:38 PM.

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