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  1. #1
    Executive Producer Severlin's Avatar
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    Default Fighter: Stalwart Defender Changes

    Greetings.

    We are updating a few enhancements in the Stalwart Defender tree for Fighters. These changes are designed at making the tree more desirable and allowing it to better work with the armor mitigation changes.

    First, we changed some AP costs for existing enhancements:

    Stalwart Defensive Mastery now costs 1/1/1 AP.
    Stalwart Shield Mastery now costs 1/1/1 AP.
    Reinforced Defenses now costs 1/1/1 AP both times you can take it.

    Now onto the tree changes:

    Innate Abilities


    • 1 AP: Toughness: You gain +1 Hit Point for each action point you spend in this tree. Each Innate Ability you possess from this tree grants +3% Fortification.
    • 5 AP, Ftr3: (Moved to Tier 2) Stalwart Defense: Defensive Stance: You gain 10 Physical Resistance, 10 Magical Resistance, a 50% bonus to threat generation, and are immune to rage effects. (Note: the movement penalty was removed.) (Note: the stance does not require a shield.)
    • 10 AP, Ftr6: (Moved to Tier 3) Overbalance: Your shields gain On Vorpal: Knock an opponent to the ground.
    • 20 AP, Ftr12: Stand Fast: (No longer requires a shield.) Action Boost: You gain a +20 bonus to Balance and saves vs. Fear for 20 seconds. This ability can be used while feared or knocked down to end these effects. (Cooldown: 30 seconds.)
    • 30 AP, Ftr18: Defensive Sweep: (No longer requires a shield.) Action Boost: You generate +50% threat and your basic attacks strike two targets per swing instead of one for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds.)
    • 41 AP, Ftr20: Last Stand: Passive: You gain +4 Constitution and +2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats. (No longer requires a shield.) Action Boost: Gain +100% Maximum hit points and +50 Physical and Magical Resistance Rating for 20 seconds. This Action Boost does not share a cooldown with other Action Boost abilities, and can be used while helpless. (Cooldown: 3 minutes.)



    Tier One (0 AP Required)


    • Item Defense: You have a (25/50/75)% chance to negate potential item wear.
    • Improved Stalwart Defense: Multiselector:
      • Resilient Defense: While in Stalwart Defense, you gain a +(1/2/3) Competence bonus to all Saving Throws.
      • Durable Defense: While in Stalwart Defense, you gain a +(5/10/15) Competence bonus to Physical and Magical Resistance Rating.
      • Inciting Defense: While in Stalwart Defense, you gain a (25/50/75)% Competence bonus to melee threat generation.

    • Stalwart Defensive Mastery: +(1/2/3) Armor Class and Amor Maximum Dexterity Bonus.
    • Defense Boost: Activate to gain a (+5/+10/+15) Action Boost bonus to Armor Class and Physical and Magical Resistance Rating for 20 seconds.
    • Threatening Countenance: +(1/2/3) Haggle and Intimidate, +(5/10/15)% melee threat generation



    Tier Two (5 AP Required)


    • Shield Striking: (Note: This enhancement was removed.)
    • Improved Stalwart Defense: See tier one. (Pick one you don’t have.)
    • Stalwart Shield Mastery: +(5%/10%/15%) Shield Armor Class and (+1/2/3) Tower Shield Maximum Dexterity Bonus.
    • Armor Expertise: Armor you equip gains a +(1/2/3) bonus to its Enhancement bonus.
    • Instinctive Defense: You take (5%/10%/15%) less extra damage when struck while helpless. (Additional damage while helpless varies by difficulty setting from 5% to 25%.)



    Tier Three (10 AP Required)


    • Improved Stalwart Defense: See tier one. (Pick one you don’t have.)
    • Greater Stalwart Defense: Multiselector:
      • Strong Defense: Stalwart Defense: While wearing medium or heavy armor or wielding a shield you gain a +(2/4/6) Competence bonus to Strength
      • Hardy Defense: Stalwart Defense: While wearing medium or heavy armor or wielding a shield you gain a +(2/4/6) Competence bonus to Constitution
      • Tenacious Defense: Stalwart Defense: While wearing medium or heavy armor or wielding a shield you gain a +(10/15/20)% Competence bonus to maximum hit points.
    • Shield Expertise: Weapons and Shields you equip gain a +(1/2/3) Competence bonus to their Enhancement bonus.
    • +1 Str or Con: +1 Strength or Constitution



    Tier Four (20 AP Required)


    • Counterattack: Action Boost: You gain On Shield Block: Your next attack within 3 seconds gains +1[W]. This stacks (1/2/3) times.
    • Swift Defense: Stalwart Defense grants +10% Movement.
    • Greater Stalwart Defense: See tier one. (Pick one you don’t have.)
    • Reinforced Defenses: Multiselector:
      • Reinforced Armor: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armor or docents is increased by (15/30/50)%.
      • Reinforced Shield: The Armor Class bonus you gain from using a shield is increased by (15/30/50)%.
    • +1 Str or Con: +1 Strength or Constitution



    Tier Five (30 AP Required)


    • Reprisal: On Attacked: Your next attack gains +1 damage. This effect stacks (3/6/10) times. (No longer requires shield)
    • Block and Cut: Melee Attack: Performs a melee attack with your main hand weapon that deals (+1/+2/+3)[W]. On Damage: You gain a (10/15/25)% Morale bonus to melee doublestrike for 10 seconds. (No longer requires shield)
    • Greater Stalwart Defense: Further improves your Stalwart Defense stance. Choose the option you didn't chose at Tier 3 or 4.
    • Reinforced Defenses: See tier four. (Pick one you don’t have.)


    Sev~
    Last edited by Severlin; 08-13-2014 at 04:59 PM.

  2. #2
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    I suggest adding 100sp to the capstone

    A fighter will have 2 self-healing SLAs available through ED if they are in Unyielding Sentinel and some sp would be nice while not completely diminishing the benefits paladins have.

  3. #3
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Would you be able to move "Block and Cut" down to tier 2 or 3, Sev? It seems odd to me that this is on tier 5 when rogue acrobats get a very similar enhancement "Quick Strike" on tier 2 of their tree. One of the problems I see with the tree on live is that it doesn't give much in the way of offense lower down. No matter what kind of build, a fighter is supposed to deal damage, as well as take it. A tree that doesn't do both for a fighter is impractical. The same goes for the paladin SD tree, as well.

    Also, would you consider moving some of the stance-enhancing enhancements to the core abilities? Especially threat. Threat is one of the few things in DDO that players can gain, but doesn't increase the player's survivability. In fact, the more threat you aquire, the more damage you take. For that reason, I think that threat should be paired with enhancements that give PRR, MRR, HP, AC or saves.

    I would say that you should roll up all of the bonuses relating to the SD stance into the core abilities, but somehow I doubt the dev team would agree to that, since it would take more time than you all probably have, with update 23 coming to Lamm in a few weeks...

  4. #4
    Community Member Varinon's Avatar
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    This is much better now, mostly because it doesn't lock you into shields. Might I suggest changing the name of Shield Expertise (as it doesn't only apply to shields now)? I don't know if I'm completely sold on fully speccing into Stalwart Defender, but it's tempting now. Can you use defensive stance without heavy/medium armor? I noticed that was a requirement for some things in Paladin, but doesn't seem to be here.
    - Deleras has gotten much shorter than I remember.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    A tree that doesn't do both for a fighter is impractical. The same goes for the paladin SD tree, as well.
    That is why you are not limited to just 1 tree. You get defense from 1 tree and offense from another. Finally if you want more offense then you take the tier 5 abilities of the offensive tree, otherwise you take tier 5 abilities.

  6. #6
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    ^^^ agreed, defensive trees should give defense, not offense. You have enough AP to go heavy into more then one tree, make the other an Offensive one.

  7. #7
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Good work, nice too see AP cost balacings.

    I think fighters deserve a few low hanging toughness enchantments, seriously if wizards get 45pts for a few points, why dont front line characters?

    "Self sufficient"
    t1 +25%
    t2 +50%
    t3 +75%
    hp regen from your cure potions.

    or something like

    add your heal skill to potion effectiveness

    t1 skill * 1%
    t2 skill * 1,5%
    t3 skill * 2%

    Something that with enough healing amp lets me hide in the corner before the next chain lightning or fireball hits me for +300-400dmg.

    If only kensei would ease on the tactics dc + w.group specialization costs, that would ithout hesitation make me go spend the more now in the tanky tree vs the racial tree.
    Last edited by janave; 08-13-2014 at 01:42 PM.

  8. #8
    Executive Producer Severlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varinon View Post
    Can you use defensive stance without heavy/medium armor? I noticed that was a requirement for some things in Paladin, but doesn't seem to be here.
    Defensive Stance does not require medium/heavy armor, nor does it require a shield.

    The benefits from Greater Stalwart Defense, however, require *either* a shield or medium/heavy armor. This should help preserve the builds that use robes and a shield.

    Sev~

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    [*]41 AP, Ftr20: Last Stand: Passive: You gain +4 Constitution and +2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats. (No longer requires a shield.) Action Boost: Gain +100% Maximum hit points and +50 Physical and Magical Resistance Rating for 20 seconds. This Action Boost does not share a cooldown with other Action Boost abilities, and can be used while helpless. (Cooldown: 3 minutes.)[/LIST]
    Not loving that cooldown. Make it much shorter and it might be worth something.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    This should help preserve the builds that use robes and a shield.

    Sev~
    Um, what build uses robes and a shield? Did you mean to say light-armor?

  11. #11
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    the tree looks a bit thin on lower levels. some more abilities to select from would be nice. on the other hand, some things are still underwhelming. T2 Armor Expertise - meh is meh. +3 ac for 3 AP? Please add something interesting in T3.

    T2 Armor Expertise: Armor you equip gains +1/+2/+3 to its Enhancement Bonus, armor check penalty is decreased by 1/2/3, arcane spell failure for using scrolls is reduced by 5/10/15.

    T3 new Multiselector
    * Your shield is now a spellcasting implement
    * Your medium/heavy armor is now a spellcasting implement
    Last edited by cru121; 08-13-2014 at 02:32 PM.

  12. #12

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    If this tree were something made from Tinker Toys....

    It seems like you changed a few of the purple sticks for greens, added a couple of plastic pennants, and a spike or two here and there. But this new lumpy object is still just going to sit on the shelf while the kids take that awesome Tinker Toy helicopter instead.


    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    Greetings.

    We are updating a few enhancements in the Stalwart Defender tree for Fighters. These changes are designed at making the tree more desirable and allowing it to better work with the armor mitigation changes.
    "The sword itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with swords."



  13. #13
    Executive Producer Severlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    Um, what build uses robes and a shield? Did you mean to say light-armor?
    Players have builds that rely on shields, but still wear robes/outfits.

    Sev~

  14. #14
    Community Member Varinon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    Players have builds that rely on shields, but still wear robes/outfits.

    Sev~
    Example: Dex-based Swashbuckler/Fighter who uses a buckler, but robes because his dex is too high for light armor.
    - Deleras has gotten much shorter than I remember.

  15. #15
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    Default Why remove Shield Striking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    Greetings.
    [*]Shield Striking: (Note: This enhancement was removed.)

    Sev~
    Why remove Shield Striking? Shield bash does contribute a noticeable amount to S&B DPS.

    At first glance, it seems that these changes help everyone except the existing S&B builds. The existing S&B builds actually come out a bit behind do to the loss of one of the few offensive enhancements available in this tree.

  16. #16
    Executive Producer Severlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wongar View Post
    Why remove Shield Striking? Shield bash does contribute a noticeable amount to S&B DPS.

    At first glance, it seems that these changes help everyone except the existing S&B builds. The existing S&B builds actually come out a bit behind do to the loss of one of the few offensive enhancements available in this tree.
    It is rolled into the Vanguard tree. We didn't want Vanguard builds to be forced to dip into this tree for that 15% chance of a secondary shield bash.

    Sev~

  17. #17
    The Hatchery Mryal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wongar View Post
    Why remove Shield Striking? Shield bash does contribute a noticeable amount to S&B DPS.

    At first glance, it seems that these changes help everyone except the existing S&B builds. The existing S&B builds actually come out a bit behind do to the loss of one of the few offensive enhancements available in this tree.
    Maybe they are moving it to vanguard.If vanguard is even still coming, not sure.Can a dev confirm if vanguard is coming or not?
    Why are the paladin defender cores giving +PRR/MRR and the fighter ones arent thought?

    Nice that you moved the stances to accept heavy armor and more importantly medium armor.14 bard / 6 fighter PDK bastard sword Cha warchanter Tactics/Tank anyone ?

    Edit : Severlin was quicker than me
    Give every person a gun and the richest man is the one that sells crutches

  18. #18
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    +6 Str, +3 Weapon Enhancement (ie damage and to-hit), a mild AOE, and a +25% Doublestrike attack? Plus all the sundry defensive and health enhancements and runspeed?

    I think SD might eclipse Kensei for offense as well as defense. The only reason to take Kensei now, it looks like, might become to be able to Center yourself with non-Monk weapons, especially with the profileration of other Competence bonuses to Crits available elsewhere.

  19. #19
    Community Member bbqzor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    We are updating a few enhancements in the Stalwart Defender tree for Fighters. These changes are designed at making the tree more desirable and allowing it to better work with the armor mitigation changes.
    Yeah...

    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    First, we changed some AP costs for existing enhancements:
    Stalwart Defensive Mastery now costs 1/1/1 AP.
    Stalwart Shield Mastery now costs 1/1/1 AP.
    Reinforced Defenses now costs 1/1/1 AP both times you can take it.
    Good. Fighters are more likely to capitalize on these than paladins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    Now onto the tree changes:
    Going to just do this in one section, so few changes it doesnt make sense to split it up.

    - On no longer requiring a shield for the last 3 cores, great change, that was a silly limitation for so many reasons.
    - On removing striking shield, thank you it was effectively broken because of animation caps.
    - On Swift Defense.... why is this untyped and the paladin one typed? Just un-type the paladin one too, no reason to limit them in the future.
    - Shield Expertise now adding to weapons (Id suggest name to something like Arms Expertise since its anything you hold now not just shields), I have to say props. This is an actually useful and cool enhancement now. Cheers.
    - Reprisal is a joke, delete it for something else or change it or whatever. Did the rant in the paladin thread Ill spare saying it twice. Its just a terrible mechanic, shield or no.
    - On Block and Cut no longer needing a shield, okay cool. This is a nice T5, a reason to use this tree over another. Good to see, but probably cant carry the tree alone. It needs a partner, and reprisal isnt it, lol.

    Overall, this tree came out better than the paladin one. Its abilities are more usable, offer offense and defense, are not limited by type, and have no standing and unfixed stacking/playability bugs. Last Stand is still kind of limiting for a capstone (20s every 180s, not a lot of uptime there...) but getting +4 to one stat (and a useful one) is almost always more appealing than +2 to two. And, like the paladin tree, the tower shield max dex and armor max dex enhancements need to be split up. If you need one, you probably dont need the other, so tying them together just penalizes everyone. Fix reprisal (by deletion) and add another good T5 to carry the tree, maybe make the capstone last 30s with a 120s cooldown, and youre well on your way here. Hopefully the feedbacks helpful. Thanks.
    Last edited by bbqzor; 08-13-2014 at 02:35 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    [*]Swift Defense: Stalwart Defense grants +10% Movement.
    It is incredibly goofy that the Fighter in Full Plate and Tower Shield will have a passively better running speed than a Kensei fighter in robes, or a Ranger, or a Rogue.

    Look at the history! This tree is based on D&D 3.5 Dwarven Defender, which gave you defensive bonuses in exchange for the stance dropping your speed to zero. DDO's adaptation changed that to merely a 10% speed reduction. Then they added a way to remove the speed reduction at a higher tier.

    But now you're removing the speed reduction as soon as you get the stance- and then removing it again in tier 4, changing the penalty into a bonus. No, Defender should not be better at long-distance running.

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