2- You can also you medium armour, no MRR cap and something like the med shadowscale is 8 MDB to start off with at the cost of 15 PRR. Add an aug for +2 and ship buff for 2 more and you're at 12 for almost no cost.
3- Mostly worried that dumping all saves will not only be an ok thing to do but better than investing in them. Depending on you split getting 70+ saves is hard and takes up gear slots for cha, dex, con and possibly wisdom as well as superior parrying, resistance, past lives and also the initial stat spread and tomes. FoM and DW cover most bad things, shield blocking(no serious DPS loss on a caster) blocks a lot more.
4- True which is why I'm hoping that the base MDB of armours in general goes back up to 20/10/5 or whatever it was for light/med/heavy. PRR will also work on more things though because MRR will be a thing.
7- This really needs to change.
Proud officer of Zuleicos (Thelanis) - Mikaelus (Melee) ; Akhnaroth (Caster) ; Kraneo (Healbot) ; Leonardu (Melee) ; Tormentazul (Melee)Originally Posted by Hoglum
Proud officer of Zuleicos (Thelanis) - Mikaelus (Melee) ; Akhnaroth (Caster) ; Kraneo (Healbot) ; Leonardu (Melee) ; Tormentazul (Melee)Originally Posted by Hoglum
Just my two cents but a lot of posters are saying the light damage isn't enough.
Unless the game has changed I have spent years watching people try to squeeze 5-6 more points of damage out of their builds so why is this additional damage not enough?
Maybe it's a matter of dps vs static damage that I'm missing.
To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women!
Go for the eyes Boo!
If I remember correctly when DDO first opened it used the "favored class" mechanic from pnp dnd 3.5, the purpose of which was (and still is) to prevent excessive multi-classing and cherry picking. The dropping of this mechanic opened the door to cherry picking splashes of paladin and rogue (later monk) for the non-humans races. So now Turbine is closing the door they opened themselves? I find that extremely annoying and hypocritical.
Why not go back to the favored class mechanic! It will tick off a lot of people but I will take xp penalties over nerfing any day. I say we spread the pain around!
A thread I posted months ago in which I graded the paladin's enhancements and made some suggestions for improvement: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...or-improvement
For KotC, change the damage part of the capstone to +1d6 good and +1d6 lawful, and +2d6 light vs. especially bad targets (undead, evil outsiders). Add +2 Str, decrease the regeneration time of Smite Evil by 50% (or more), and add a debuff to smite evil...maybe have it hit for 2dX stacks of Vulnerability. Or reduce monster PRR/AC/saves/Dodge/Fortification. Add some healing amp.
A good point brought up by someone else (that has been discussed ever since the enhancement pass), is that the cleric/favored soul Smite ability, while weaker than Smite Evil in terms of damage, is both unlimited, and does a lot more than just deal damage, and is in some ways far more useful. They get to grant/increase Vulnerability, which can account for much more damage than the paladin's smite evil if a whole group (especially a raid group) is beating down on one enemy), and they get an effective AoE heal ability.
Let's look at what paladins do/are supposed to do, and where they fall short:
- a "front line" martial class -- they have full BAB, martial weapon proficiency, heavy armor and (non-tower) shield proficiency, a d10 hit die, and some damage abilities, but in DDO a primary combatant needs a lot more than this package to be effective.
- a secondary healer -- they have a spell list with some Cure spells on it, and Lay On Hands; LOH is pretty good, but it isn't enough for anything but emergency party healing, and isn't quite enough for the paladin to rely on it as their primary method of healing through a whole quest.
- a "leader" -- they have an aura that buffs the party, as well as a few spells that do the same, but aside from the bonus to saves from the aura, and Death Ward in parties without someone else that can cast it, no one cares about the rest of the paladin's aura benefits or their buffs.
- a staunch opponent of evil -- smite evil is there, but even in pen & paper D&D, where monster stats aren't so outrageously inflated, smite is a fairly weak ability until you get to high levels and can go "nova" on a single big bad guy.
- an incredibly tough, resilient, and self-sufficient character -- they have their healing abilities, immunities, spells that grant further immunities or protections, fantastic saves, and heavy armor, but in DDO DPS is king, since we have so many ways to gain a measure of self-sufficiency, and some of those measures seriously out-class the paladin's core abilities (hello Rejuvenation Cocoon); since, regardless of our defensive potential, if we don't exceed a certain bar of effectiveness in terms of offensive, we're going to end up losing (when solo, not necessarily when grouped, but a possibility).
Paladins need more DPS, which is what the developers were looking to do with Weapons of Light, but that doesn't go quite far enough, and still ignores all of the abilities the paladin already has that are under-performing.
Paladins need slightly better (self-) healing, and for their innate healing to be worth something still at end game where everyone that can't already heal themselves is running around with Cocoon, which is mostly better than LOH. Adding a healing effect to Smite Evil could be nice. Alternatives could include adding an AoE burst healing effect On-being-hit/crit, or granting paladins the Heal spell either as an SLA or as a 4th level spell. Include some healing amp in the paladin class, besides its enhancements.
Improve the paladin's aura with things everyone cares about: PRR, MRR, healing amp, offensive boosts (damage, attack, double-strike), and expand its size.
Improve the paladin's spell selection--right now, there is very little of value at level 2 (Resist Energy is nice, but we have many ways to gain Resists at this point, and Angel Skin's DR is both insignificant in epic levels and overridden by the DR on many armors a paladin would want to wear), and level 3 (Magic Circle Against Evil, which is a common buff from clerics, favored souls, wizards, and some sorcerers, and Prayer, which isn't that useful). There are some good spells at 4, but for most paladins they really just amount to Zeal and Cure Serious Wounds unless you desperately need Death Ward. The addition of the Raise Dead spells is nice, but they mostly just allow paladins to use scrolls without requiring UMD for them. There isn't enough in the level 3 and 4 spells, in particular, to make going to 19 or 20 paladin worthwhile (that's when you get a 3rd, then 4th spell slot for those spell levels). My Holy Sword idea would help. Heal would help. Mass Cure X wounds would possibly help. Other paladin spells being introduced from the Spell Compendium and Book of Exalted Deeds would help.
Give Smite Evil a duration, or debuff riders. Give them something like Weapons of Light, but not just a few d6 in extra damage. Regenerate Smite Evil faster. Improve Divine Might.
Paladin's saves are already an enormous boon (so big, in fact, that a lot of people splash paladin just for that), but there's not enough reason to take more paladin.
Look at the way Paizo worked on the paladin in Pathfinder: smite evil becomes a buff throughout an encounter against a single chosen foe, granting more damage and a bonus to hit, as well as a bonus to AC (and there are variants that do things like protect the rest of the party from damage instead of provide extra damage for the paladin). They gain some additional aura benefits (Charm and Compulsion in addition to Fear, etc...), including an aura ability that grants their whole party the benefits of their Smite Evil ability for a time. Lay On Hands gains status removing rider effects. And they gain a bunch of very useful spells at all spell levels.
Acknowledge that paladins are hurting for feats and either give them some bonus feats, grant them some feats as bonuses, or include the effects of some feats in their enhancements. At this stage, if you want to be S&B, not having a tower shield is a significant detriment, for example.
One thing that really galls me about the game as it stands now, from a paladin's perspective, is that if you want to have your paladin abilities be worthwhile in epic content you must be in Unyielding Sentinel for Endless Smiting and Lay On Hands and Light the Dark. It is particularly vexing that the paladin has to wait until epic levels before they can regenerate their Lay On Hands. Meanwhile, the other epic destinies do much less in terms of improving or working with existing class abilities, and much more of building on the themes and capabilities of the heroic classes. For example, Fury of the Wild doesn't do anything directly for a barbarian's rage (or Uncanny Dodge), but it has some abilities that confer extra benefits while raging, and has abilities that are 'in theme' for barbarians. Still, the barbarian can go to Legendary Dreadnaught and they won't feel like their heroic abilities aren't performing up to epic levels due to not being in Fury.
if all smites recharged in Parallel then the number would not be restricting, because i think the current CD is 4 seconds. Boosted to 6 seconds then a paladin of 10th level with all enhancements and the ED will have at least one smite available at all times.
Thank you that is a step in the right direction.~ We don't want to tie Paladins to sword and shield. Paladin buffs should be good regardless of the weapon style. We might not specifically try to support two weapon paladins, we don't want changes that punish that combo either.
I still think that shield users lack a dps feat line, however one must be careful that shield users are not equal in
dps to non shield users, else shield usage with the resulting AC/PPR bonuses would be the only class played.
Can we consider a small threat generation toggles to be included with improved shield mastery?
Making the lesser dps overcome without unbalancing things?
Core pen and paper has many variations such as the spell point system found in unearthed arcana.~ We understand the purist argument to keep the base class close to pen and paper and use enhancements to buff Paladins. I will bring that viewpoint up with the team. The design reason we didn't keep the class pure and buff enhancement is that we would have to cram the buffs into the core abilities since you can get many tree enhancements with a relatively modest splash into Paladin.
DDO should enliven the spirit of the D&D not stick perfectly to the letter of D&D.
There are many editions and many optional books.
It is possible using all the books in D&D 3rd edtion to create a god out of a 4th level (or lower toon).
One must be a kobold and use certain books and worship a certain god, but it has been written up
in detail on the WotC forums.
Coupled with the proposed light damage, I think DR bypassing would be sufficient (particularly for cleavers) for beefing up Pali offensive capability.
I am not opposed to a debuff aura. An aura that makes evil vulnerable to divine light could be quite powerful.
Things I think would help make more paladins worth while.
Add Additional spells (some change ups to translate to DDO)
Endure Elements: Adds Divine elemental resistance Fire/Ice (Stacks with all other sources) per caster level - 3/5/7/10 - Amounts coordinate with paladin levels for getting spells - Last 1 Minute per level
Protection from Chaos - Similar to Protection from Evil just vs Chaos
Magic Weapon: Similar to Artificer Spell
Bless Weapon: Adds Blessed to Weapon bypassing DR similar to Holy/Good adds +4 bonus To-Hit vs Evil
Delay Poison - Triples the Timer for applying poison damage but still allowing person to make their saves - 3 Saves before a Failed save would cause damage
Shield Others: Paladin Takes half of the protected persons damage - Should Work on NPCs for defend quests
Undetectable Alignment: Used to bypass Alignment Restricted items thus not suffering negative level
Magic Circle against Chaos: Same as Evil just vs Chaos
Magic Weapon, Greater: Same as Magic Weapon but +2 Per 4 Paladin Levels Sacred Seeker and +1 Critical Multiplier on a Vorpal
Dispel Chaos: +4 AC/Saves bonus against attack by Chaotic creatures (this should stack with Protection/Magic Circle)
Dispel Evil: +4 AC/Saves bonus against attack by Evil creatures (this should stack with Protection/Magic Circle)
Mark of Justice: No Save Bestow Curse (SR should still apply) Should have a 60 second cool down minimum
Note: For All weapon buffs listed only one should apply to a weapon at a time
Changes to Existing Spells
4th Level Holy Sword: Adds +5 Divine Bonus to Current Weapon, Adds Holy, Silver/Cold Iron and +2d6 damage vs Evil With Protection from Evil. Duration should be as long as the caster is holding the weapon (Self Only). Instead of creating a stand alone weapon
4th Level Zeal: Change from 10% sacred bonuses to double strike to - 10% Sacred Bonus to Attack Speed + 10% Bonus to Double Strike/Double Shot + 10% to Offhand/Shield Bash
Also Add in a More choices for Weapons for the Deity choices Faiths like the Sovereign Host have several weapons
Let's start nerfing ALL 2 level splash build...... Move evasion to level 9 for monks and rogues........ Move disable traps so that only rogue points can be put into it. COME ON....... REALLY? ......STOP NERFING builds and spend more time adding content, items, crafting systems....... Something to get people back into DDO and not getting them frustrated and making them leave!
And that makes a huge 'what to do' for devs.. Do they leave it as is, pigeon-holing everyone into being forced to take the same couple splashes, invalidating nearly every capstone and purist option out there in many situations? Or do they step on the toes of almost everyone to try to shift it up? The third option, ideally, is best.. Add to other classes to make up the difference.. But how to do so? Do they add an evasion-like ability to *every single* class that needs it to survive? Well, at that point, why have it at all? They'd have to come up with uniquely desirable yet not-identical things for every enchancement/class build, and that's a monument of work, all because someone way back with PnP came up with evasion and, fast forward, DDO characters thrive from reflex saves mixed with it. The most crowd-pleasing option is to add to others and, really, I think I'd find it more interesting personally, but it simply isn't possible to pretend like being able to multiclass a level or two of some random, non-sense class into a build for one unbelievably good feat was ever an intended design point to begin with. Evasion is downright amazing, all the bonus feats and extra bits from other splashes are great. You shouldn't get a better payout from dedicating one level to some random off class than taking your primary classes to its highest-heights! Which capstones are supposed to achieve, but generally don't.
Multiclassing is, as much as I love it, a nightmare in the way it was implemented in 3.0/3.5. It's abusable to absurd degrees, especially in a game like DDO which cares little for the fluff or logic of a character, and only for its numbers. Just throwing my two cents out there - don't pretend like multi-classing in DDO isn't a nightmare of balance; it was never designed to be an MMO, much less balanced, in the first place. Best the devs can do is try to add more incentive to break those molds.
Last edited by losian2; 06-15-2014 at 12:09 AM.
IMO the problem in not with granted feats and they should be left alone. Personally I don't know why everyone has to complain about splash builds anyways but since they are, the problem is with the enhancement system! D&D 3.5 was a fairly balanced system before you added enhancements into the mix. The latest enhancement refresh has further encouraged splash builds and I have to believe that was the intention. If turbine decides to start messing with granted feats you are only going to cause more problems with balance and cause further angst with old PNP players!
Despite all the rage, I think the changes are a good step in the right direction. I can't wait till the Lam build with it comes up, people try their toons, and realize absolutely nothing changes.
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