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Thread: Paladin Changes

  1. #381
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Some Do's and Dont's for theoretical paladin spells:

    Do's:
    - Take inspiration from PnP, but what's good in PnP isn't always going to be good in DDO.
    - Weapon enchantments
    - Personal Augmentions (see artificer spell list)
    - Aura of Glory
    - Increased maximum caster levels of current spells, like Divine Favor.
    - Melee-ranged attacks that use spell points, such as the ones used by druids.

    Don'ts:
    - DC-based spells that use Wisdom as their DC modifier, unless said spell's DC can be improved by items/effects that increase sunder/stun/trip DCs.
    - Summoning spells, unless said summon improves with paladin levels, such as druid and artificer companions.

  2. #382
    Community Member Hilltrot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thar View Post
    Evasion is being nerf'd because you are making something equally powerful that has no cost. Armor has no character development choices. I'm not saying you shouldn't buff armor, but the amount of protection you are proposing is too much. IF this had no impact to my character, it wouldn't be horrible but your are further nerfing evasion but blocking our use of heavy shields which have been grinded, upgraded with augments, raided for for months and etc. Players don't like losing abilities. Make change so we don't LOSE anything and it will go over better. Don't ghostbane it and change EVERYTHING.
    Ok, ummm,. . . Wow. Sheeessh.

    You must have seriously never played an online game other than DDO in your entire life. You really, really sound clueless.

    Usually when a new expansion comes out in an MMO, all your previous gear is instantly worthless. As in vendor trash. You should never get attached to your gear in an MMO, because it will always change. So, when a new expansion comes out, you should expect to change your gear. This is a good thing. Really! It is!

    When the big expansion comes out and you don't need to change your gear, it usually means that it was a pretty lousy expansion and they were more likely just filling in gaps instead of actually expanding the game.

    I guess if you've only played DDO, this might be a relatively new thing. I know that for the first 5 years of the game, the best stuff was greensteel and characters would only play the shroud. Again, and again , and . . . However, I'm pretty sure this almost killed the game. Once you have your uber, uber item, the end game is over. Players leave. Go do something else. Etc. This means the MMO dies. This is what Greensteel almost did to the game. It was so awesome when it came out that it took years for the game to come out with something better. If it weren't for the TR train, DDO would have died a horrible death years ago.

    I believe that the developers would like to have an actual end game. This is hard because they based their game on system where people were suppose to retire their characters sometime before they hit 20th level. So they have to do some pretty radical changes while hopefully keeping the "flavor" of the game.

    Having to get new equipment is irrelevant to the argument as to whether the change is good or not. So is having to respec your character. Losing the exploitive character build many of you use is also irrelevant. What is relevant is whether it will be interesting and enjoyable to the majority of the present and future players.

  3. #383
    Hero Cardoor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    ...

    Why light damage, which, while it's hard to resist, doesn't do anything else. I know the devs seem to like the idea of keeping the Weapons of Good ability in the capstone, but with artificer weapon buffs, augment slots, and a few epic abilities all conveying the same bonus (treating your weapons as good for the purposes of bypassing DR), this doesn't hold the allure that other capstones do. Meanwhile, we have the essentially dead spell, Holy Weapon, for paladins at level 4, which hasn't been looked at in ages. Why dead? Because a +5 Holy Burst weapon that bypasses a few metal types of DR just doesn't stack up well against the loot inflation that has occurred in the game since the spell was released.

    Some suggestions:
    • Add a 2nd level paladin spell that works like an artificer personal weapon enchantment buff to allow your weapons to be treated as Good aligned, and another that can treat them as Law aligned.
    • Change Holy Sword to be a special personal weapon enchantment buff that grants your weapon Holy Burst, and treats it as the same metal types as the spell does now.
    • Keep some of the Weapons of Light in there (but not all of it).

    ...
    .
    Increasing DR bypassing (Alignment, Metaline, Morphic) seems like the best way to enhance already established abilities. I like your suggestions quoted above, but would go further and add a capstone that bypasses all DR to make a pure Pali more of an offensive threat without giving them Fighter or Barb advantages.

    Using light damage seems to be a similar idea, because as you pointed out it is hard to resist. The more I think about it though, it should be a holy light and at lvl 20 no DR should be able to resist a pure pali.

  4. #384
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    Default DR bypassing is nice and all, but ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardoor View Post
    Increasing DR bypassing (Alignment, Metaline, Morphic) seems like the best way to enhance already established abilities. I like your suggestions quoted above, but would go further and add a capstone that bypasses all DR to make a pure Pali more of an offensive threat without giving them Fighter or Barb advantages.

    Using light damage seems to be a similar idea, because as you pointed out it is hard to resist. The more I think about it though, it should be a holy light and at lvl 20 no DR should be able to resist a pure pali.
    Sure, DR bypassing is nice (can't you get most of it from equipment though?), but what if a Paladin got some kind of debuff aura to mobs, that would work against reds at high lvl and against purples (ofc. including epics, as you know that is what they will want to be hitting) with a capstone or something? Is this a crazy idea? It might make it interesting to get that capstone or at least a VERY deep splash. Alternatively it could be a tier 5 enhancement maybe?

  5. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    Some thoughts:

    ~ If we accept the argument that buffing something underpowered is, by proxy, nerfing something else then we will never get anything done. Therefore I can't give credence to the argument that Evasion is being nerfed "by proxy" of making armor competitive. By doing so we essentially kill any ability to make positive change.

    ~ We don't want to tie Paladins to sword and shield. Paladin buffs should be good regardless of the weapon style. We might not specifically try to support two weapon paladins, we don't want changes that punish that combo either.

    ~ We understand the purist argument to keep the base class close to pen and paper and use enhancements to buff Paladins. I will bring that viewpoint up with the team. The design reason we didn't keep the class pure and buff enhancement is that we would have to cram the buffs into the core abilities since you can get many tree enhancements with a relatively modest splash into Paladin.

    Sev~
    I completely support your actions that are trying to make Heavy and medium armor relevant.

    Right now, evasion is simply no brainer. I build every single of my characters with evasion implemented and would feel naked without it. Buffing armor will not nerf evasion, it will add posibilities.

    while purists may have a point there or there, when you make the final decision, make sure about one thing: That it is enjoyable and fun an well thought. Cause that emans more than PnP relevant.
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  6. #386
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    So, when a new expansion comes out, you should expect to change your gear. This is a good thing. Really! It is!

    When the big expansion comes out and you don't need to change your gear, it usually means that it was a pretty lousy expansion and they were more likely just filling in gaps instead of actually expanding the game.

    I guess if you've only played DDO, this might be a relatively new thing. I know that for the first 5 years of the game, the best stuff was greensteel and characters would only play the shroud. Again, and again , and . . . However, I'm pretty sure this almost killed the game.
    Well some may not have played a lot of other MMOs but from you post it looks like you haven't played DDO, or understood where the previous poster was coming from. For the first two years greensteel didn't exist. When they appeared they were only (often situationally) best for a year. After, with epics, GS turned into spot-savers, great for leveling, very good at end-game but nowhere near the very best. Yes people ran shroud a lot though for obvious reasons. But nowhere near the grinding they do now for Fire Peak/Wyrm imho.

    As fior powercreep, old loot being extinct etc. To me (not saying I'm objectively correct, just subjective opinion) the strategy of DDO of NOT outdating old loot was what kept many longtime players interested. And if new loot was better the difference was small, and the effort to get them fairly high. Now with stuff like deadly outdating old hard-to-come-by uberloot AND being purchasable cheap on the regular AH, the fun of loot has dropped significantly.

    I know many other games went new Monty Haul with each new update, and that is fine if people want that. That doesn't mean that is THE ONLY way to run a successful MMO.

  7. #387
    Community Member Kalevor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    I am, and have always been, a paladin fan. I've posted numerous threads, and given thousands upon thousands of words worth of feedback and suggestions regarding paladins, and buffing them.

    So when I say that this looks fairly terrible, please understand that it is coming from someone who had desperately wanted paladins to get some love and improvements.

    Armor of Light is okay. Not amazing, but okay.

    Weapon of Light is terrible. The damage is fairly minor, and doesn't really address the paladin's problems very well.
    • They're still feat-starved, and this past year has seen an increase in the number of worthwhile feats.
    • Their DPS suffers when compared to that of the other martial classes, and while +2d6 or +4d6 is nice (and the burst), it's not all that compelling when you look at how much DPS relies on crit damage (meaning things that can be multiplied). Plus, this is fairly boring.
    • There are other problems, but I'm not going to get into them right now.


    Why light damage, which, while it's hard to resist, doesn't do anything else. I know the devs seem to like the idea of keeping the Weapons of Good ability in the capstone, but with artificer weapon buffs, augment slots, and a few epic abilities all conveying the same bonus (treating your weapons as good for the purposes of bypassing DR), this doesn't hold the allure that other capstones do. Meanwhile, we have the essentially dead spell, Holy Weapon, for paladins at level 4, which hasn't been looked at in ages. Why dead? Because a +5 Holy Burst weapon that bypasses a few metal types of DR just doesn't stack up well against the loot inflation that has occurred in the game since the spell was released.

    Some suggestions:
    • Add a 2nd level paladin spell that works like an artificer personal weapon enchantment buff to allow your weapons to be treated as Good aligned, and another that can treat them as Law aligned.
    • Change Holy Sword to be a special personal weapon enchantment buff that grants your weapon Holy Burst, and treats it as the same metal types as the spell does now.
    • Keep some of the Weapons of Light in there (but not all of it).
    • Rethink Divine Might, and how it doesn't stack with some things, and isn't as rewarding as the old version was, unless you are using it with tactical feats, which you probably aren't, since Paladins have no other way to boost them (and your boost to Str via Cha isn't usually as significant a boost to these abilities as the combined features of the fighter, barbarian, or monk).
    • Gut the enhancement trees, discarding the useless enhancements, improving the mediocre ones, and polishing the better ones.
    • Give us some real capstones.
    • Change Smite Evil (either base, or via enhancements) to do more--debuff, control, AoE, have a lingering effect, something--to counter the Swing>lag>miss>wasted attempt we see so often, and the limited utility of a severely limited use burst DPS ability.
    • Improved the paladin's "leader" abilities (healing, party buffs, aura) so that having a paladin along is a boon to the whole party beyond just a moderate bonus to their saving throws if they're stapled to his ass.
    • Been so long since I've gone over this stuff that I don't recall all of the ideas I had had, nor the good ideas other people had contributed.

    NO.

    The reason paladins are viewed as a 2-level dip is because they don't offer anything more significant than what can be obtained with other classes. To remedy this, improved the tier 5 enhancements, the level 6-20 core enhancements (especially the capstones), add more worthwhile spells to all of their spell levels, and revamp some of the junky ones they have currently.

    No one is going to stick with paladin for Weapons/Armor of Light. Even combined, they just aren't as potent or significant as what you can get from a dip in other classes.

    The /2 paladin splash, while somewhat ubiquitous, is not the problem. The problems are that there isn't enough incentive to go beyond 2 paladin levels, and the game places too much of an emphasis on super-high saves later on, seeking, I imagine, to challenge the players with the super-high saves, and forcing the players without to modify their builds just to get close to being on the same d20. Reduce some of the save DC inflation, and make other options more attractive, and that will help far more than nerfing the splash adding a few mediocre scaling abilities.
    Agreed with almost all points here... I suggest to read some of the old threat about, there are some great ideas that some people write well and spend the time to do it... I think it is unfair to base a major change in the class when so many brainstorming sessions were carried out before.


    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...to+fix+paladin

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...to+fix+paladin

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...to+fix+paladin

    My search-fu is weak, i can't remember more... anyone can post them?


    That on is regarding armor but being the same dev, i guess it can be pointed here:

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=history+armor

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...change+paladin



    Quote Originally Posted by viktorserak View Post
    I completely support your actions that are trying to make Heavy and medium armor relevant.

    Right now, evasion is simply no brainer. I build every single of my characters with evasion implemented and would feel naked without it. Buffing armor will not nerf evasion, it will add posibilities.

    while purists may have a point there or there, when you make the final decision, make sure about one thing: That it is enjoyable and fun an well thought. Cause that emans more than PnP relevant.
    Agreed. If you buff armor you nerf evasion? nonsense
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  8. #388
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    Right now, evasion is simply no brainer. I build every single of my characters with evasion implemented and would feel naked without it. Buffing armor will not nerf evasion, it will add posibilities.

    while purists may have a point there or there, when you make the final decision, make sure about one thing: That it is enjoyable and fun an well thought. Cause that emans more than PnP relevant.
    Agreed. If you buff armor you nerf evasion? nonsense
    Of course you nerf evasion if you make other items/feats/EDs etc do similar stuff. Saying the opposite is nonsense. That doesn't mean nerfing evasion is a bad thing (or a good thing). Nerf by proxy is a mainstay of MMOs. Often a pretty good solution, sometimes not.

    And wow saying evasion is a no-brainer made me chuckle. To each their own but since I focus on EE doing evasion unless I have 55+ or better yet 70+ reflex saves is pointless. For me!. I got it on one of my five toons. Don't miss it on the others and even if I had taken it I would still fail most of the time and gain no benefit

  9. #389
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    People play characters to the high levels if they are having fun with it, sadly i dont think any defense or armor change is going to help the Paladin class.

    Why?

    Speed.

    With all the aoe instant kills, massive aoe dps, aoe cc, quicken heals - the game is very much tinkered toward classes that can be played fast.
    There is no point standing face to face meleeing down 10k hps, when you can just debuff-> instakill -> move to the next group.

    If you want paladins to be played, you need to make them able to keep up with the rest of the party.

    I am still voting for tweaking content vs ceirtain OP abilities, to be less OP. But never ever I seen developer feedback on this idea. I think it is the actual solution, designing meaningful encounters where everyone feels like contributing to a party based game.

    The greatest buffs/nerfs are there in the dungeon challenges, adjust them, and see players playing all sorts of characters to combine efforts to beat the encounters.

  10. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascoe View Post
    Sure, DR bypassing is nice (can't you get most of it from equipment though?), but what if a Paladin got some kind of debuff aura to mobs, that would work against reds at high lvl and against purples (ofc. including epics, as you know that is what they will want to be hitting) with a capstone or something? Is this a crazy idea? It might make it interesting to get that capstone or at least a VERY deep splash. Alternatively it could be a tier 5 enhancement maybe?
    Given that the current end game weapons are Thunderforged ones which already bypass all metal DRs giving this ability to paladins would seem to be a minor aid at best, although obviously once the cap hits 30 their may be better dps weapons floating around that don't have DR bypass properties.

    Debuff aura sounds interesting, scale it with level, possible enhancement to improve its effect. Something along the lines of lesser version of curse, and weaken etc. Although it would have to be toggleable or at least no cause aggro - otherwise paladin may end up drawing in more mobs than he can handle if he's not playing the tank.

    Still think the light damage should be changed to good damage which benefits from positive spellpower which is much more useful to a paladin. Add in an actual burst on critical to individual mobs at high levels (even level 20) that's a multiple of the base damage based on weapon stats so 6d6 on a 2x weapon, 9d6 on a 3x etc Probably not enough on its own to make them competitive but it depends on how spellpower effects it.

    And to reiterate, don't think the changes to divine grace should be made unless some rebalancing of high level saves is made - so that in effect theres no overall difference to their chance to save i.e. if verage build loses 4 to their saves then save dcs go down 4. I have no problem with high dex characters having high reflex saves and evading almost all the time - one because it is just one save as opposed to paladin splashes giving substantial improvements to all saves (although currently reflex save is most important), two it needs a fair investment in dex or even being a dex based character which in itself is a penalty as str is much more easily boosted and therefore provides much better dps currently, and three - its a class feature, traditional dex based characters are supposed to have the best reflex saves.

  11. #391
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    Oh and one of the few advantages paladins had was their ability to self heal which scaled with level to a degree. Unfortunately the introduction of various methods for self healing which is now almost obligatory took away from that.

  12. #392
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    --------------------------------
    ~ At 7th level the Paladin gets the Armor of Light ability. The Paladin gains 25 temporary hit points (non-stacking) each time they use Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, Cure Disease or Turn Undead. This ability provides 50 temporary hit points at 13th level, and 75 temporary hit points at 19th level.

    this seems pointless, i would like to see something else instead, like for example on smite a 1d4 stacks of physical vulnerability, caps at 20% same as all other things that give vulnerability but physical damage only this time, it would make paladins want to smite again. it would not only help paladins with their dps but also benefit the group running with them.

    also smite charges get used too fast, so maybe something like 33% chance for getting a smite charge back on non crit smite, 66% on critical, 150% on natural 20 smite (150% would mean that you get 1 smite and get 50% chance for another) it would be something that would be way more useful than some temporary hp.
    ------------------------------------

    ~ The Paladin gains Weapon of Light starting at 8th level and increasing at 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th.

    At 8th level the Paladin gains Weapon of Light. While this toggle is activated each weapon attack they make also cause 1d6 of Light damage. This damage is increased to 2d6 for two handed weapons and for shield bash attacks.

    At 11th level the Weapon of Light damage bursts in a 10’ radius when the Paladin rolls a 20 on an attack roll with a weapon.

    At 14th level the Weapon of Light increases to 2d6, or 4d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.

    At 17th level the damage of a Weapon of Light burst (when you roll a 20) is doubled.

    At 20th level the Aura of Light increases to 3d6, or 6d6 with a two handed weapon or a shield bash.

    this is prettygood if it will be combined with some PrE damage, but i think it would be great if it had extra benefits, something like lvl 11 makes held weapons good aligned, lvl 14 makes held weapon have +2 to crit chance and crit multiplier ON A SMITE only, lvl 17 adds some kind of holy property to weapon, lvl 20? maybe some chance for a massive blast of damage on a smite, like ...... hmmm........ a golden lightning strike, that does 10d10 light, good and sonic damage, idk its just an example of the way of thinking about this.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    We are also considering a controversial change as well:
    Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

    We want good saving throws to be a class feature of Paladins and a reason to go to higher level in the class. At the same time we don't want players to feel that there is no reason to increase your Paladin level beyond two or three. This change will provide an excellent +8 to all saving throws for a two level splash into Paladin and allow that saving throw bonus to increase as the Paladin levels.

    now this i have trouble with understanding correctly, at least i think i do, +8 to saves is major boost, for just two levels, when d20 dice is used...

    most paladins have trouble with going over 30 charisma before epic levels, and epic levels dont change that much, unless paladin is strictly built for charisma, this would mean that most paladins would gain not much more than a 2 lvl splash in. unless its not useing charisma mod anymore and it gives +62 to all saves at lvl 20.................

    ------------------------------------------------------
    one more thing i think could or shoudl be done, is shield mastery feat, after seeing how much diffrence single weapon fighting 30% does , i think that shield users could use some of that too, not that much as 30% maybe a 10-15% butit would raise hit rate a bit, also i would sugest changeing improved shield bash feat to sometihng like this (20%+character level) that would make shield bash base to be 40% at lvl 20, with shield that boosts bashes it would go to 60%, and that would make a big diffrence.

    -----------------------------------------------------
    almsot forgot about last but pretty important thing, tower shield proficiency, some of the prestiges in other classes give proficiencies, i think that gives a sufficient reason for paladin to get a tower proficiency in defender tree at least
    Last edited by bloodnose13; 06-14-2014 at 08:28 AM. Reason: patch 1 to update 1
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    ~ We understand the purist argument to keep the base class close to pen and paper and use enhancements to buff Paladins. I will bring that viewpoint up with the team. The design reason we didn't keep the class pure and buff enhancement is that we would have to cram the buffs into the core abilities since you can get many tree enhancements with a relatively modest splash into Paladin.Sev~
    Well, this is where abilities with DCs come into play.

    Put a High powered ability in at Tier 5, and its likely to be attractive to many multi-class builds. Put a High Powered ability in at Tier 5 that uses actual Class levels as part of the DC, and boom, instant attraction being pure or mainly pure.

    Rogue Assassinate ability is an absolute prime example of this. The suggested 'Celestial Justicar' tree I designed that's on the PC forums had great examples of this as well.
    Last edited by Arlathen; 06-14-2014 at 07:46 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltrot View Post
    Ok, ummm,. . . Wow. Sheeessh.

    You must have seriously never played an online game other than DDO in your entire life. You really, really sound clueless.

    Usually when a new expansion comes out in an MMO, all your previous gear is instantly worthless. As in vendor trash. You should never get attached to your gear in an MMO, because it will always change. So, when a new expansion comes out, you should expect to change your gear. This is a good thing. Really! It is!

    DDO has been pretty decent until recently with gear progression, if you get some nice piece of loot it'd generally still be useful after a cap increase and if not still a sweet twink item for TRing. This is one of the things I like about the game, do 80 ADQs for a torc and it'd still be good for years to come, not so much anymore though.

    You also missed the main thrust of his argument, heavy armour doesn't require much of an investment at all to reap huge benefits under this system and the heavy shield change is a slap in the face. Heavy shields don't have a dodge cap so I really don't get why they'd need to both block evasion and have a MRR multiplier that's so high. Nerf the heavy shield MRR multiplier to something much smaller but leave in evasion and things would be much better for everyone. If done well Cleric/FvS would need to take a Fighter level or burn a feat for tower shields if they wanted that massive MRR same with arcane casters, they're the classes right now that lose nothing equipping a shield and the game would probably go back to FvS being the best tanks again if things were so easy.

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    Angry what about Monk armor class bonus?

    If it is unfair for paladin splashes to have the full save bonus from divine grace then it is also unfair for monk splashes to have the full AC bonus from wisdom. Monk splashes should also be limited to +8 to AC from wisdom for the same reason. To be fair you need to give the clonks reason to rage quit also!

  16. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKP View Post
    If it is unfair for paladin splashes to have the full save bonus from divine grace then it is also unfair for monk splashes to have the full AC bonus from wisdom. Monk splashes should also be limited to +8 to AC from wisdom for the same reason. To be fair you need to give the clonks reason to rage quit also!
    Because AC is meaningless in EE's?

    And please change smites to adrenalines from FOTW that is all
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  17. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayseifn View Post
    You also missed the main thrust of his argument, heavy armour doesn't require much of an investment at all to reap huge benefits under this system and the heavy shield change is a slap in the face. Heavy shields don't have a dodge cap so I really don't get why they'd need to both block evasion and have a MRR multiplier that's so high. Nerf the heavy shield MRR multiplier to something much smaller but leave in evasion and things would be much better for everyone. If done well Cleric/FvS would need to take a Fighter level or burn a feat for tower shields if they wanted that massive MRR same with arcane casters, they're the classes right now that lose nothing equipping a shield and the game would probably go back to FvS being the best tanks again if things were so easy.
    I really don't understant your point... There is no investment to wear a heavy armor or a shield? Really? Cap max DEX bonus and lose the possibility of Evasion is not enough loss? Then why is everybody running in pajamas??? There is NOT one single EE build wearing heavy armor and shield. Why?

    1- No evasion means take high amounts of AoE damage. Evasion makes the life a lot more easy in EE.

    2- Dex cap = dodge cap ---> if you want this to round 10-15 you need to make a HEAVY INVESTMENT in enhacement points.

    3- Evasion is only 1 feat + high saves. Right now is really easy... split 2 monk/pally/rogue and its done... Staying pure rarely is better than split so...

    4- Damage mitigation is weaker than avoidance (dodge). Why? dodge is cumulative with other sources of avoidance to make it even higher... PRR is caped ... You can say... well, you can have the 2. But do some math or try some programs that emulate this and you'll see that is better to focuse in dodge and take PRR as u can because the other way is weaker.

    5- In orther to have high Ac you need to give up a lot of DPS. Enhacement and gear wise.

    6- High AC is near useless

    7- Heavy armor for warforge is 1 feat too...

    In summary, wear heavy armor and shield DOES require an investment of resources equal or higher than evasion, so why don't make it JUST AS USEFUL. What's wrong with more options??
    Proud officer of Zuleicos (Thelanis) - Mikaelus (Melee) ; Akhnaroth (Caster) ; Kraneo (Healbot) ; Leonardu (Melee) ; Tormentazul (Melee)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum
    Come play Dungeons and Dragons! In heroic play you will face the evil minions of Demons... When and if you make it to Epic levels you face even greater threats. Threats like... giant rats and wolves!

  18. #398
    2015 DDO Players Council MangLord's Avatar
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    I feel like every time we call for better capstones it falls on deaf ears, but I'll try again.

    A nice paladin capstone would be +2 str/con/cha, Heal replacing the 4th level cure spell, and possibly a blanket holy burst effect for any equipped weapon and shield. That is something that would be helpful for epic levels. It's not OP at all for an epic level tank.

    Weapons of good is something a paladin should get at level 12 or even 8. I don't know if it was ever great, but it's pretty pathetic now.

    Smite Evil needs to be improved. As a DPS burst, it falls flat even at heroic levels.

    Holy Weapons spell needs to be similar to arty Deadly Weapons, applying the holy burst and metalline effect to whatever equipped weapons the paladin wants to use. A +5 holy burst sword isn't very good past level 14. I used that spell once, then threw the rest of the sword components away. Not to mention that they don't stack and clog up inventory.

    Unless a paladin can gain 10d6 or more light damage per hit at epic levels, a couple d6 worth of extra damage isn't going to mean anything. Doubling the light damage for THF only makes SnB even less relevant than it is now. Making the vorpal light AOE something spectacular (800-1200 at least past level 20. Rolling 20s are pretty rare when using SnB.) would be good if you're insistent on 4d6 or whatever, but it would have to be substantial for a paladin looking to hold aggro.
    Ferial *Halek *Shankwelle on Argonnessen
    Officer of The Order of the Emerald Claw

  19. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalevor View Post
    I really don't understant your point... There is no investment to wear a heavy armor or a shield? Really? Cap max DEX bonus and lose the possibility of Evasion is not enough loss? Then why is everybody running in pajamas??? There is NOT one single EE build wearing heavy armor and shield. Why?
    The changes in the defense rework thread make fullplate + Tower shield superior to defense stacking with evasion, because you instantly drop to 40% damage taken on a failed save vs an Outfit's 50%. The problem there is that there is virtually no opportunity cost in the build as compared to evasion which has an opportunity cost for a non-monk

  20. #400
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    Paladins need unlimited smites (on cool down similar to fvs... Is smite evil better than fvs smite/touch of death/stunning fist... No, so don't limit it) and swf with shields (give them dps when using a shield).

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