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  1. #1
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    Default Detailed Results From Running EH at Level

    If you just want to see the results skip to the second post

    I decided to do an experiment to test out a couple of dev quotes. Specifically this one that has been very controversial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Our current plan is that Iconic and Epic Hearts of Wood each require 4200 Commendations of Valor. This is close to our estimate of how many Commendations of Valor you would get from playing Epic Hard, non-ransacked quests and usually taking Commendations as the end reward, based on how many quests characters would finish between levels 20-28 (again, on Epic Hard).
    As well as these clarifications.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We did try to take some level of XP bonuses into account, not just pure base quest XP. We know players often have some amount of bonuses, from 1st time on difficulties to bravery bonuses to 20% Daily bonuses to Voice of the Master, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Produktion_Malphunktion View Post
    the developers are fine with the comm drop rate. Epic hard At level. Looking at raw data, most people run EH over level. It makes a difference.

    On my most recent ER I ran quests only on epic hard at level. So at level 20 I was running level 20 quests on EH (Making the quest level 21) Since the only level 25 quest is Fall of Truth I ran level 24 and level 26 quests evenly figuring that would average out.

    If you just want to see the results skip to the second post. For the rest of this post I am going to list our some of the details, limitations, and other thoughts about the experiment.

    Details on Playstyle and Quest Choice:

    I generally like to fully complete quests when I run them so I did most optionals. I mostly soloed (not entirely by choice) and did not have theif skills on this toon so any optionals that required opening a lock did not get done.

    Quests were chosen first by how much I enoy or hate them.
    I ran in Legendary Dreadnaught for this life so the second consideration was how easy it was to maintain a blitz in the quest. (In my experience as long as there were no portals it wasn't usually a problem)
    Experience awarded was not a significant factor in how I chose quests.

    Normally I like to do some slayers/explorers while I level but for this experiment I avoided them as much as possible. I did get a little bit when running through explorer areas to get to quests with groups that would stop and kill a few things on the way.

    I don't normally use xp pots but I wanted to get this experiment over with as soon as possible so I could go back to playing the way I want to.

    XP/Commendation Modifications:

    XP Bonuses that also affect commendations: (They should not make a significant difference on the result)

    10% VIP
    5% Ship Buff
    5% Voice of the Master
    5-30% XP Pot (Basically whatever I had sitting in my bank already)

    XP Bonuses that do not affect commendations: (These would be a penalty to amount earned but suppsoedly they counted some bonsues into the calculations)

    10% Global xp boost going on. (I didn't really want to wait until after U22 to do the experiment)
    10% Greater Tome of Epic Learning. (Had this on the character long before ER was a thing and can't do anything about it now. )

    Commendation Bonuses:

    Double Commendations. (This bonus was going on during the first 2 levels so you should probably cut those amounts in half but I figure it helps balance out the extra xp from the global boost and the greater tome)

    First Time Bonuses:

    This was my second ER but I still had a few quests that I never got around to running last time. I figure if I hand not had the first time bonus I would have had to run enough extra quests for maybe another 100-150 commendations.

    Final Thoughts:

    It wasn't a particuallry enjoyable exeriment. I had to turn down my friends a lot becasue they were running a quest that I was not at the right level for at the time.

    Level 26 was the worst. I like two of the wheloon quests (Friends in Low Places, and Lesson in Deception) but the others I just find tedious (Army of Shadow and it's giant worm of HP) or anoying (Through a Mirror Darkly and Thrill of the Hunt). I ran them all anyways becasue I usually wanted to run more than two quests a day

    In the end I earned 3515 commendation of valor which, to me, feels quite a bit short of the 4200 we are supposed to be able earn. I will admit some bias in that I entered the experiment being sceptical of the claim that running EH at level would get me close to the number of commendations needed to ER by the time I reached 28.
    Last edited by Krelar; 06-04-2014 at 11:13 AM.

  2. #2
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    Quest and Commendations Details:

    Here is a summary of the commendations earned as well as how long it took me to earn them for those curious.

    May 8th – June 2nd
    Level Total Change Finished
    Start 3186
    20 3459 273* 05/09/14
    21 3766 307* 05/11/14
    22 3974 208 05/15/14
    23 4319 345 05/17/14
    24 4914 595 05/20/14
    25 5522 608 05/24/14
    26 6153 631 05/29/14
    27 6701 548** 06/02/14
    Total Earned 3515

    *Note there was a double comm event going on for both of these levels so these amounts should probably be cut in half.

    **Apparently I never ran some of the Storm Horns on EH last life so I received some first time bonuses on these quests. Probably could have earned another 100-150 coms without the bonus.


    This is the list of quests I ran and what type of xp pot I had running at the time.

    Level 20
    The Snitch x2 5%
    Bargain of Blood x2 5%
    The Black Loch x2 5%
    The Tide Turns x1 5%, x1 30%
    Partycrashers x1 30%

    Level 21
    An Offering of Blood x2 30%
    The Lords of Dust x2 30%
    Tharashk Arena x1 30%
    Impossible Demands x1 30%
    The Last Stand x1 30%
    About 2K worth of explorers

    Level 22
    The Jungle of Khyber x1 30%
    The House of Rusted Blades x1 30%
    The Chamber of Raiyum x1 30%
    Haywire Foundry x1 30%
    Don't Drink the Water x1 30%
    The House of Death Undone x1 30%
    About 20K of slayers/rares

    Level 23
    Trial by Fury x2 30%
    Outbreak x2 30%
    Overgrowth x2 30%
    Thorn and Paw x2 30%
    The Druid's Curse x2 30%
    Reclaiming the Rift x1 30%
    The Deal and the Demon x1 30%
    About 10K of slayers/rares

    Level 24
    Detour x1 30%
    A Stay at the Inn x2 30%
    Lost in the Swamp x1 30%
    Rest Stop x2 30%
    The End of the Road x1 30%
    A Cry for Help x1 30%
    Feast or Famine x2 30%
    Foundation of Discord x1 30%
    The Maze of Madness x2 30%
    Trial by Fire x2 30%
    Return to Cabal for One x2 30%

    Level 25
    A Cry for Help x1 20%
    Feast or Famine x1 30% x1 20%
    Foundation of Discord x1 20%
    The Maze of Madness x1 20%
    Trial by Fire x1 20%
    Return to Cabal for One x1 30% x1 20%
    A Lesson in Deception x1 30% x2 20%
    Army of Shadow x1 20%
    Friends in Low Places x1 30% x2 20%
    A Study in Sable x1 20%
    About 8K of slayers/rares

    Level 26
    About 12K of slayers/rares
    A Lesson in Deception x4 30%
    Army of Shadow x3 30%
    Friends in Low Places x4 30%
    The Thrill of the Hunt x2 30%
    Through a Mirror Darkly x1 20%
    A Study in Sable x1 20%

    Level 27
    A Break In the Ice x2 20%
    Breaking the Ranks x3 20%
    Lines of Supply x2 20%
    The Tracker's Trap x3 20%
    What Goes Up x2 20%
    Last edited by Krelar; 06-04-2014 at 10:50 AM.

  3. #3
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    Well.... that sounds boring.

    Seriously. Boring. I dont enjoy "planning" my game in a way that is designed by someone else. And ofy, you havent got the comms anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by viktorserak View Post
    Well.... that sounds boring.

    Seriously. Boring. I dont enjoy "planning" my game in a way that is designed by someone else. And ofy, you havent got the comms anyway.
    Yes, yes it was. Lot's of turning down friends because I was the wrong level. (I could of switched characters and I did sometimes but I also wanted to get this thing done with so I soloed a lot)

    I was doing it to see what would happen. I don't think I will be trying it again any time soon.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    Level 20
    The Snitch x2 5%
    Bargain of Blood x2 5%
    The Black Loch x2 5%
    The Tide Turns x1 5%, x1 30%
    Partycrashers x1 30%

    Level 21
    An Offering of Blood x2 30%
    The Lords of Dust x2 30%
    Tharashk Arena x1 30%
    Impossible Demands x1 30%
    The Last Stand x1 30%
    About 2K worth of explorers

    Level 22
    The Jungle of Khyber x1 30%
    The House of Rusted Blades x1 30%
    The Chamber of Raiyum x1 30%
    Haywire Foundry x1 30%
    Don't Drink the Water x1 30%
    The House of Death Undone x1 30%
    About 20K of slayers/rares

    Level 23
    Trial by Fury x2 30%
    Outbreak x2 30%
    Overgrowth x2 30%
    Thorn and Paw x2 30%
    The Druid's Curse x2 30%
    Reclaiming the Rift x1 30%
    The Deal and the Demon x1 30%
    About 10K of slayers/rares

    Level 24
    Detour x1 30%
    A Stay at the Inn x2 30%
    Lost in the Swamp x1 30%
    Rest Stop x2 30%
    The End of the Road x1 30%
    A Cry for Help x1 30%
    Feast or Famine x2 30%
    Foundation of Discord x1 30%
    The Maze of Madness x2 30%
    Trial by Fire x2 30%
    Return to Cabal for One x2 30%

    Level 25
    A Cry for Help x1 20%
    Feast or Famine x1 30% x1 20%
    Foundation of Discord x1 20%
    The Maze of Madness x1 20%
    Trial by Fire x1 20%
    Return to Cabal for One x1 30% x1 20%
    A Lesson in Deception x1 30% x2 20%
    Army of Shadow x1 20%
    Friends in Low Places x1 30% x2 20%
    A Study in Sable x1 20%
    About 8K of slayers/rares

    Level 26
    About 12K of slayers/rares
    A Lesson in Deception x4 30%
    Army of Shadow x3 30%
    Friends in Low Places x4 30%
    The Thrill of the Hunt x2 30%
    Through a Mirror Darkly x1 20%
    A Study in Sable x1 20%

    Level 27
    A Break In the Ice x2 20%
    Breaking the Ranks x3 20%
    Lines of Supply x2 20%
    The Tracker's Trap x3 20%
    What Goes Up x2 20%
    Off the top of my head I noticed a lot of quests didn't get done at all. Is that because you really don't like them, or outleveled them? Off the top of my head as an example in level one Spies in the House, small problem, big top, devil assault, etc. There are quite a few quests not done beyond that, but I just wanted to cite an example of what I meant.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    If you just want to see the results skip to the second post

    I decided to do an experiment to test out a couple of dev quotes. Specifically this one that has been very controversial.
    Thanks for putting in the effort of testing this and posting the results..
    Once the cap goes to 30, It will probably end up just about right.


    I can honestly say I am dreading the introduction of those last 2 levels already. The sky high xp requirements with the lack of variety of end game quests will probably be just enough to suck the last of the fun out of TR'ing entirely for me.

    I hope I am wrong, I really do.
    <-Curelite Bottling Company->

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

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    Interesting experiment indeed. Thanks for the post, something I will need to think about in the future when I start the ETR process.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityTurtle View Post
    Off the top of my head I noticed a lot of quests didn't get done at all. Is that because you really don't like them, or outleveled them? Off the top of my head as an example in level one Spies in the House, small problem, big top, devil assault, etc. There are quite a few quests not done beyond that, but I just wanted to cite an example of what I meant.
    If I didn't do a quest I either did not like it or outleveled it before I had a chance.

  9. #9
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    Thanks for actually doing this. So, even running precisely as "programmed", it's still not enough. Oh, well.

    <insert all is well crowd>
    <seemingly offensive Army of Darkness quote>

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    Thanks for actually doing this. So, even running precisely as "programmed", it's still not enough. Oh, well.

    <insert all is well crowd>
    It is interesting to note though that another player also did the same experiment and posted results with a different set of quest choices on eh and en and got 200 coms over what he needed. I think I might try a one and done on eh when I tr Tortoisse next and see what figure I come up with.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityTurtle View Post
    It is interesting to note though that another player also did the same experiment and posted results with a different set of quest choices on eh and en and got 200 coms over what he needed. I think I might try a one and done on eh when I tr Tortoisse next and see what figure I come up with.
    If you're talking about this one I think it's important to note that he basically ran the highest level quests possible and thus highest commendations per quest. (I'm pretty sure he skipped every quest between level 20-23 and started with Gianthold)

    My goal was to specifically run only quests at my level which is how the devs have stated they came up with the 4200 number.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityTurtle View Post
    It is interesting to note though that another player also did the same experiment and posted results with a different set of quest choices on eh and en and got 200 coms over what he needed. I think I might try a one and done on eh when I tr Tortoisse next and see what figure I come up with.


    which one was that?
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Fernando has yet to even suggest a nerf of anything.
    Oh and by the way (referring to your sig), we aren't nerfing the Torc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityTurtle View Post
    It is interesting to note though that another player also did the same experiment and posted results with a different set of quest choices on eh and en and got 200 coms over what he needed. I think I might try a one and done on eh when I tr Tortoisse next and see what figure I come up with.
    Where is this?

    The one I know of the same stuff, underlevel, over and over and over, IIRC.

    My own experiments, before the XP bonus to comms, gave around 1800 comms. Though I did not run "at level" - I ran just about every quest I could find, instead.
    <seemingly offensive Army of Darkness quote>

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    Quote Originally Posted by viktorserak View Post
    Well.... that sounds boring.

    Seriously. Boring. I dont enjoy "planning" my game in a way that is designed by someone else. And ofy, you havent got the comms anyway.
    And this is the enormous flaw with the comm system.

    Tying the leveling process and heart earning processes together and basing the 4200 comm number on EH at level forces you to run only in one way (content in range to your character level or higher, no explorers, optionals, ect.) or be punished. Devs seem to think that this is the "right way" to play and if you like to level in some other way you're playing the game wrong.

    I think quest level should be dropped entirely on epics, and difficulties across content should be more uniform. Ex. EE/EH/EN chronoscope would be just about as hard as EE/EH/EN fire peaks. That way all epic content would be playable at all times no matter your character level. Scale them all up to the most difficult quest. Yes, every quest would be more difficult, but you'd simply play EH or EN for quests you used to play at EH or EE. If you had an ungeared level 20 with no destinies you'd start with EN or EC and slowly move up to EH and EE as you got better.

    Comms given out would be based on expected completion time so that all quests/raids in theory would be the same comms per minute. It's silly to tie character level to quest level, since character level means very little (EDs hold the vast majority of your toon's power). In the end it's just an arbritrary restriction limiting the number of quests you can play. Lets just make all content viable to play at all times.
    Last edited by axel15810; 06-04-2014 at 12:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    If you're talking about this one I think it's important to note that he basically ran the highest level quests possible and thus highest commendations per quest. (I'm pretty sure he skipped every quest between level 20-23 and started with Gianthold)

    My goal was to specifically run only quests at my level which is how the devs have stated they came up with the 4200 number.
    That is the one, but equally important is that sadly that is the list a lot of the people I know are playing and they don't DO the other content in the first place. I can't get most of my friends or even a lot of puggers to do Carny, Sands, Chrono/DA, or Sentinals with me at all because 'it's boring, the loot is outdated (although a lot of them complain they have no good loot til 24!) and only want to do the ones on that guys list. And I don't have access to their metrics, but I do wonder how many people are just running those packs. So if a large group of players are running like that, it IS going to be how the devs come up with that number. If not, then the dev's need to relook at it.

    So some players are doing it with their normal leveling routines no problems, some aren't, and I suspect the only way to balance it out so everyone has the same results is just decide how many quests total they want us to do, and set the coms for that regardless of what we do. Want us doing 200 total quests? Then all things drop 21 covs regardless. Want us doing 400? 11 cov's regardless of quest level or our level, with no xp boosts. Of course, I seriously doubt anyone would like that system either.
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    Another problem with this experiment is that your definition of At Level differs from the devs'. Playing a level 20 quest on EH makes the quest level 21. If you are playing that while you are level 20, you are playing it UNDER level. That can't be helped at level 20 obviously, but it makes an enormous difference later on. Doing it "right" by the devs' book will result in even less CoV than you got.

    Here's the bottom line. They've said (and you quoted them) that we're "supposed" to have enough CoV to ER/ITR on reaching cap. This translates DIRECTLY to: There should be no gate to Reincarnation other than the Level Cap prerequisite. If this was ACTUALLY what Turbine intended, that is to enforce no gate, then they would NOT MAKE US EARN CoV IN THE FIRST PLACE. No gate means no gate. Period. So the fact that we actually DO have a gate, and that they are charging real dollars to let us bypass it, tells me (and should tell all of us in no uncertain terms) that the gate is intentional, that the 4200 CoV pricetag is intentional, that we are NOT expected to earn 4200 in "normal" levelling, and that their claims as quoted are a smokescreen. For them to dispute that fact they would have to remove Epic/Iconic Hearts altogether. Obviously that isn't going to happen.

    So, all experiments aside, we need to just face facts and realize that the gate exists and we will have to perform some form of grind or pay up. Either we force ourselves to sacrifice fun and grouping with friends to meet a certain "correct" levelling scheme, playing only certain quests at certain times, in the hopes of having enough CoV when we cap, or we play how and when we like and grind CoV as a separate activity. For some bizarre reason that's what Turbine wants: for us to have less fun while playing their game. If that statement is untrue, let them prove it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Another problem with this experiment is that your definition of At Level differs from the devs'. Playing a level 20 quest on EH makes the quest level 21. If you are playing that while you are level 20, you are playing it UNDER level. That can't be helped at level 20 obviously, but it makes an enormous difference later on. Doing it "right" by the devs' book will result in even less CoV than you got.

    Here's the bottom line. They've said (and you quoted them) that we're "supposed" to have enough CoV to ER/ITR on reaching cap. This translates DIRECTLY to: There should be no gate to Reincarnation other than the Level Cap prerequisite. If this was ACTUALLY what Turbine intended, that is to enforce no gate, then they would NOT MAKE US EARN CoV IN THE FIRST PLACE. No gate means no gate. Period. So the fact that we actually DO have a gate, and that they are charging real dollars to let us bypass it, tells me (and should tell all of us in no uncertain terms) that the gate is intentional, that the 4200 CoV pricetag is intentional, that we are NOT expected to earn 4200 in "normal" levelling, and that their claims as quoted are a smokescreen. For them to dispute that fact they would have to remove Epic/Iconic Hearts altogether. Obviously that isn't going to happen.

    So, all experiments aside, we need to just face facts and realize that the gate exists and we will have to perform some form of grind or pay up. Either we force ourselves to sacrifice fun and grouping with friends to meet a certain "correct" levelling scheme, playing only certain quests at certain times, in the hopes of having enough CoV when we cap, or we play how and when we like and grind CoV as a separate activity. For some bizarre reason that's what Turbine wants: for us to have less fun while playing their game. If that statement is untrue, let them prove it.
    I agree. It is absolutely intentional. But it is not bizarre, it is their way to make business. Make it uncomfortable so that some people pays up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    Quest and Commendations Details:

    Here is a summary of the commendations earned as well as how long it took me to earn them for those curious.

    May 8th – June 2nd
    Level Total Change Finished
    Start 3186
    20 3459 273* 05/09/14
    21 3766 307* 05/11/14
    22 3974 208 05/15/14
    23 4319 345 05/17/14
    24 4914 595 05/20/14
    25 5522 608 05/24/14
    26 6153 631 05/29/14
    27 6701 548** 06/02/14
    Total Earned 3515

    *Note there was a double comm event going on for both of these levels so these amounts should probably be cut in half.

    **Apparently I never ran some of the Storm Horns on EH last life so I received some first time bonuses on these quests. Probably could have earned another 100-150 coms without the bonus.


    This is the list of quests I ran and what type of xp pot I had running at the time.

    Level 20
    The Snitch x2 5%
    Bargain of Blood x2 5%
    The Black Loch x2 5%
    The Tide Turns x1 5%, x1 30%
    Partycrashers x1 30%

    Level 21
    An Offering of Blood x2 30%
    The Lords of Dust x2 30%
    Tharashk Arena x1 30%
    Impossible Demands x1 30%
    The Last Stand x1 30%
    About 2K worth of explorers

    Level 22
    The Jungle of Khyber x1 30%
    The House of Rusted Blades x1 30%
    The Chamber of Raiyum x1 30%
    Haywire Foundry x1 30%
    Don't Drink the Water x1 30%
    The House of Death Undone x1 30%
    About 20K of slayers/rares

    Level 23
    Trial by Fury x2 30%
    Outbreak x2 30%
    Overgrowth x2 30%
    Thorn and Paw x2 30%
    The Druid's Curse x2 30%
    Reclaiming the Rift x1 30%
    The Deal and the Demon x1 30%
    About 10K of slayers/rares

    Level 24
    Detour x1 30%
    A Stay at the Inn x2 30%
    Lost in the Swamp x1 30%
    Rest Stop x2 30%
    The End of the Road x1 30%
    A Cry for Help x1 30%
    Feast or Famine x2 30%
    Foundation of Discord x1 30%
    The Maze of Madness x2 30%
    Trial by Fire x2 30%
    Return to Cabal for One x2 30%

    Level 25
    A Cry for Help x1 20%
    Feast or Famine x1 30% x1 20%
    Foundation of Discord x1 20%
    The Maze of Madness x1 20%
    Trial by Fire x1 20%
    Return to Cabal for One x1 30% x1 20%
    A Lesson in Deception x1 30% x2 20%
    Army of Shadow x1 20%
    Friends in Low Places x1 30% x2 20%
    A Study in Sable x1 20%
    About 8K of slayers/rares

    Level 26
    About 12K of slayers/rares
    A Lesson in Deception x4 30%
    Army of Shadow x3 30%
    Friends in Low Places x4 30%
    The Thrill of the Hunt x2 30%
    Through a Mirror Darkly x1 20%
    A Study in Sable x1 20%

    Level 27
    A Break In the Ice x2 20%
    Breaking the Ranks x3 20%
    Lines of Supply x2 20%
    The Tracker's Trap x3 20%
    What Goes Up x2 20%
    Turbine, how will you answer now? The user has posted concrete data soloing Epic Hard at level just as you said he would, he never got any Saga XP, only got small Wilderness XP, started out with 200% comm and finished out with 110% comm from events and yet he didn't get anywhere close the amount.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    And this is the enormous flaw with the comm system.

    Tying the leveling process and heart earning processes together and basing the 4200 comm number on EH at level forces you to run only in one way (content in range to your character level or higher, no explorers, optionals, ect.) or be punished. Devs seem to think that this is the "right way" to play and if you like to level in some other way you're playing the game wrong.

    I think quest level should be dropped entirely on epics, and difficulties across content should be more uniform. Ex. EE/EH/EN chronoscope would be just about as hard as EE/EH/EN fire peaks. That way all epic content would be playable at all times no matter your character level. Scale them all up to the most difficult quest. Yes, every quest would be more difficult, but you'd simply play EH or EN for quests you used to play at EH or EE. If you had an ungeared level 20 with no destinies you'd start with EN or EC and slowly move up to EH and EE as you got better.

    Comms given out would be based on expected completion time so that all quests/raids in theory would be the same comms per minute. It's silly to tie character level to quest level, since character level means very little (EDs hold the vast majority of your toon's power). In the end it's just an arbritrary restriction limiting the number of quests you can play. Lets just make all content viable to play at all times.
    The devs are fine with the numbers being just out of reach for most people's 20-28 run, which means a bigger chance that they'll sell a heart in the store.

    I'm okay with that. But when they suggest that it's fair, or feasible for an average player to hit that number, it's just patronizing. It's always been clear they're not playing the same game as us, and the lack of understanding (or perhaps caring) of how their own developments function gets under my skin. They have a mechanic for what's essentially TRing EDs, so presumably they understand that the power in epic levels comes largely from EDs. And yet they've locked out higher quests BY LEVEL?

    I don't think all content being unrestricted is the answer, but the current situation boggles the mind. It's either a lack of comprehension or a lack of (coding) ability, or both. This is not a new thing for DDO, but the frustration keeps growing.

  20. #20
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    So will people actually believe me now or continue telling me I made it up?
    Gary Gygax quotes

    The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience.

    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

    When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.

    The secret we should never let the game masters know is that they don't need any rules.

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